Narrowboats into coastal waters

[Blue_skies]

Can a 57ft narrowboat (traditional) be adapted to nip into coastal waters and do a stretch of coast (say, Thames to Humber estuary). Would some sort of closed bow modification be needed or perhaps extra balasting / kealing?

 

Thanks

[Guest Trevor George]

Oh yes ... it can be done ...

 

Here's some links to some Sea-Going Narrowboats that you may get some information from

 

Sea-going Narrowboat - (Frances)

 

Sea-going Narrowboat - (Narrow Dog)

 

Sea-going Narrowboat - (Ocean Princess)

[Blue_skies]

Oh yes ... it can be done ...

 

Here's some links to some Sea-Going Narrowboats that you may get some information from

 

Sea-going Narrowboat - (Frances)

 

Sea-going Narrowboat - (Narrow Dog)

 

Sea-going Narrowboat - (Ocean Princess)

Thanks for those, Trevor. They don't seem to have modified the bow although one of them (the Frances) mentions a specially designed shallow keel. God knows how a five person crew managed to survive an Altlantic crossing in that sized boat without killing each other!

[NB Willawaw]

Your existing insurance would be invalid on a coastal voyage like this and insurance companies get very twitchy about modified narrowboats. If you want the boat to be covered by insurance for the trip, you need to look into it very carefully.

 

We have done the occasional foray like the Severn Estuary and the Thames a few times, but never anything as exposed as

the Thames to the Humber.

[Blue_skies]

Your existing insurance would be invalid on a coastal voyage like this and insurance companies get very twitchy about modified narrowboats. If you want the boat to be covered by insurance for the trip, you need to look into it very carefully.

 

We have done the occasional foray like the Severn Estuary and the Thames a few times, but never anything as exposed as

the Thames to the Humber.

 

Yes, good point. Does standard NB insurance cover rivers and river estuaries, do you know?

 

I've also a mad idea one day to take a NB from the Thames across the channel and use the inland waterways of Europe to reach Vienna, but that's way in the future, if at all!

[NB Willawaw]

Ours does up to a point. We are covered for the Thames transit between Teddington and Limehouse

and for the Severn passage with a pilot, but thats it.

I suspect that anything else would be a new policy or a modification to the existing one.

 

Yes, good point. Does standard NB insurance cover rivers and river estuaries, do you know?

[blackrose]

Many inland waterways narrowboat insurance policies cover up to the Thames Barrier but not beyond.

 

RCD Category D craft, are not advised to venture out of the mouth of a river. My RCD Annexe 3 declaration states that my boat (Cat D) is designed to handle wave heights of no more than half a metre, but on the tidal Thames we hit a few waves of about a metre on the bow and the boat handled it fine. Good job the bow doors were shut! I wouldn't fancy waves any bigger than that.

 

Sea-going Narrowboat - (Frances)

 

There was another thread on this boat. Personally I think the Atlantic crossing is a hoax.

Edited February 7, 2007 by blackrose

[Keeping Up]

The Frances was a very special boat, basically a seagoing boat that looked like a narrow boat above water. Designed for the purpose, it wouldn't be possible to convert an existing narrowboat to the same spec.

 

Ocean Princess is a slightly special boat, basically a narrow boat with a small number of special features. Well weatherproofed, sealed against waves at both ends, inside steering, low centre of gravity and a small keel, internally baffled water and diesel tanks, extra-powerful engine, etc. Suitable for moderate weather, very lucky not to have encountered bad weather which can occur very quickly.

 

Narrow Dog. A standard narrowboat, well prepared for crossing the Channel but ALWAYS accompanied by a more suitable craft for the entire crossing. Very lucky to have made the crossing intact. They waited for totally calm weather of course.

 

Any boat, narrowboats included, with adequate preparation (and by that I mean a HUGE amount of preparation) could cross the Channel or make a coastal voyage as long as the weather is perfect. The problem is, in this country you cannot ever be certain of perfect weather at all times. People have tried it, most of them have had to be rescued or have lost their boat.

 

Don't even contemplate it unless you are VERY VERY certain of what you're doing. If you have to even ask the question, it probably means you shouldn't be thinking of it. The best accessory for someone to fit to a narrowboat for a sea voyage? A periscope!

 

Allan

Edited February 8, 2007 by Keeping Up
Tryping errors corrected

[Blue_skies]

The best accessory for someone to fit to a narrowboat for a sea voyage? A periscope!

 

LOL

 

Yes, it's a possible mad future project and a long way off and possibly never. I haven't even bought my first NB yet! The idea of considering the project within the design spec of a liveaboard has crossed my mind though. e.g. having fixing points made in the bow for attaching a raised or even completely closed and sealed front bow. Interesting to hear of others attempting the crossing. My thought, if I did it one day, was to wait for absolutely calm weather and have someone accompany me in a sea-going vessel.

[blackrose]

Any boat, narrowboats included, with adequate preparation (and by that I mean a HUGE amount of preparation) could cross the Channel or make a coastal voyage as long as the weather is perfect. The problem is, in this country you cannot ever be certain of perfect weather at all times. People have tried it, most of them have had to be rescued or have lost their boat.

 

I have a question about the channel crossing.

 

I've heard about boats waiting weeks for perfect weather to make the channel crossing - presumably they were at Dover or another port. What I don't understand is how they got there in the first place because exiting the Thames estuary and getting to just about any port on the South Coast is probably a longer journey than the channel crossing itself. I've crossed the channel on a sailing boat and coastal waters can be rough, if you need to wait for weeks to do the crossing then surely you need to do the same before any coastal cruising. So where did they wait weeks for perfect weather before leaving the estuary?

Edited February 8, 2007 by blackrose

[Blue_skies]

I've heard about boats waiting weeks for perfect weather to make the channel crossing - presumably they were at Dover or another port. What I don't understand is how they got there in the first place because exiting the Thames estuary and getting to just about any port on the South Coast is probably a longer journey than the channel crossing itself. Where did they wait for calm weather before going to sea?

My guess (and it is a complete guess) is that they either make the crossing from the Thames estuary in one go or do it in two legs by stopping at a port.

[blackrose]

My guess (and it is a complete guess) is that they either make the crossing from the Thames estuary in one go or do it in two legs by stopping at a port.

 

There wouldn't be enough light to do it in one go and although you can do it at night (as we did on the sailing boat), I thought it was usual to do it in two legs and stop at Ramsgate or Dover. Which was the point of my question: Where do you wait for the weather to get to Ramsgate or Dover?

[NB Willawaw]

If I were to attempt a channel crossing, I would just make short hops down the estuary, riding the tide, to increase

my speed. There are places at Gravesend, Medway, etc where you could wait for weather to improve, tide to turn, light, etc. before reaching Dover/Ramsgate etc. There are good anchorages in the downs as well.

It should be quite possible to make 6-8 knots with tide and with approx 6 hour slots between tides, you can cover quite reasonable distances.

 

I really have no desire to. If I wanted to do those sort of trips, I would sell the narrowboat and buy a sailing boat.

I found that coastal navigation is boring, tiring and usually punctuated by a lot of waiting around for tides and better weather.

The beauty of inland waterways is the fact that you can carry on moving irrespective of weather and tides (just the maintenance stoppages to contend with !!).

Mind you, now that I consider all the irate fishermen and some of the other characters that you can only escape at walking speed, maybe it is time to go back to the sea ??

Edited February 8, 2007 by NB Willawaw

[IAN A]

I know widebeams are cert'd (RCD) to D as narrowboats normally are, but is anyone aware of a widebeam crossing the channel - do they handle any better in a swell than a narrowboat?

[blackrose]

I know widebeams are cert'd (RCD) to D as narrowboats normally are, but is anyone aware of a widebeam crossing the channel - do they handle any better in a swell than a narrowboat?

 

That would be interesting to know. I heard about two narrowboats being advised to brace up together to cross the wash so there must be some stability inprovement (even though other people said it wasn't a good idea because of the strain on the ropes).

 

When I went down the tidal Thames I was warned about taking waves on the side of the boat by narrowboat owners. Obviously you try to take them on the bow but sometimes they seem to come from all directions and it's dangerous to turn into them because of bridge approaches. I didn't find the ones that hit us on the side too bad - I think it would have been worse on a narrowboat.

[blackrose]

If I were to attempt a channel crossing, I would just make short hops down the estuary, riding the tide, to increase

my speed. There are places at Gravesend, Medway, etc where you could wait for weather to improve, tide to turn, light, etc. before reaching Dover/Ramsgate etc. There are good anchorages in the downs as well.

It should be quite possible to make 6-8 knots with tide and with approx 6 hour slots between tides, you can cover quite reasonable distances.

 

I suppose some people have waited for weeks at Gravesend for the weather to improve but I wouldn want to be anchored somewhere for 6 weeks!

 

I have a friend who used to sail his boat in the Med in the 70s. He used to anchor in bays but reckoned that even on nice calm days after the sun went down the waves would start slapping against the boat & most of the time it was uncomfortable. He's now on the French canals and tells me about all the boats he meets who've come off the Med because they can't afford the marina prices.

[John Orentas]

That would be interesting to know. I heard about two narrowboats being advised to brace up together to cross the wash so there must be some stability inprovement (even though other people said it wasn't a good idea because of the strain on the ropes).

 

When I went down the tidal Thames I was warned about taking waves on the side of the boat by narrowboat owners. Obviously you try to take them on the bow but sometimes they seem to come from all directions and it's dangerous to turn into them because of bridge approaches. I didn't find the ones that hit us on the side too bad - I think it would have been worse on a narrowboat.

 

 

The worst thing you can do with narrowboats is to breast them up as some very ill-informed authorities insist on, the Manchester Ship Canal company used to impose that silly rule, they had been persuaded to abolish it but they were bought out just before implementation, I don't know what the situation is now.

 

Narrowboats cope surprisingly well in a heavy swell, better than some sea boats. Chris Coburn when he tagged along with a Dunkirk comemorative cruise, he said he was getting a bit concerned at one stage but when he looked around he saw that many of his companions were rolling far more than his boat Progress. The main problem with narrowboats is the well-deck which could hold several tons of water if it was swamped but a simple matter to make a temporary modification, other things too of course.

[slowcoach]

i got this dvd a while back off ebay

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NARROWBOAT-AT-BLACKP...VQQcmdZViewItem

 

 

and it shows the full event of going past blackppol tower, on the river and sea really interesting watch, recomended

[blackrose]

The worst thing you can do with narrowboats is to breast them up as some very ill-informed authorities insist on, the Manchester Ship Canal company used to impose that silly rule, they had been persuaded to abolish it but they were bought out just before implementation, I don't know what the situation is now.

Why is that - beacause of the strain on the ropes? I once watched a video called The longest Narrowboat Journey (Black Country to the Black Sea), in which 2 trad narrowboats crossed the chanel with the intention of crossing Europe. They crossed the channel brested up, but one of the boats was sunk on the Rhine, I think. http://www.canalshop.co.uk/acatalog/nicks.html

 

Narrowboats cope surprisingly well in a heavy swell, better than some sea boats. Chris Coburn when he tagged along with a Dunkirk comemorative cruise, he said he was getting a bit concerned at one stage but when he looked around he saw that many of his companions were rolling far more than his boat Progress.

Most small seagoing boats are designed to roll - I was once coming back from a diving trip on the Barrier Reef. It was about a 30 mile journey and some of the passengers (including myself) became quite alarmed at the amount the boat was heaving in the heavy swell. The Captain calmed us down when he told us that if the boat stopped rolling then we had problems. It might look like it can handle a swell, but the fact that a narrowboat doesn't react and ride the waves means Chris Coburn's initial concerns were probably appropriate. If the swell increased, the seagoing boats would continue to roll - a narrowboat would just go down.

Edited February 8, 2007 by blackrose

[John Orentas]

Roping two boats together, you are effectively creating a single unit. Can you imagine a worse, more horrible shape for a hull, a damned great 'V' cut into the bows, not exactly an aerodynamic shape. I have done the length of the Manchester Ship Canal breasted to another boat, it cuts speed down by 50% and far from stabilising things it has the opposite effect. There were about 50 narrowboats on that trip, you couldn't have found one that agreed with that stupid regulation.

 

The history of breasting up on the MSC comes from the working days, there was some logic in breasting a fully loaded pair with four inches of free-board especially when a 12,000 ton vessel zooms past at 12 knots.

 

I know one of the crew of that Black Sea trip, he does say it was quite hairy at times on the big rivers but I think the problem was pushing and shoving with those enormous craft and their macho masters, yes I think the butty sank somewhere.

[blackrose]

Roping two boats together, you are effectively creating a single unit. Can you imagine a worse, more horrible shape for a hull, a damned great 'V' cut into the bows

 

Yes, I was thinking the 2 brested hulls might act like a catamaran but I hadn't thought of the double bow with nowhere for the water to go between them.

[dor]

Narrow Dog. A standard narrowboat, well prepared for crossing the Channel but ALWAYS accompanied by a more suitable craft for the entire crossing. Very lucky to have made the crossing intact. They waited for totally calm weather of course.

 

They had nearly perfect conditions for the crossing; Didn't stop them nearly getting swamped just outside Calais when the Seacat Ferry left the harbour.

[Roger Gunkel]

I sympathise with the romantic idea of taking your home to sea and adventuring to far flung places, but why try to adapt a boat that is patently unsuited to sea work both in construction and hull shape. Narrowdog was taken across the channel under carefully supervised conditions, specifically to go through the canals. It also only involved about thirty miles in total of open sea. The idea of taking a narrowboat from the Thames to the Humber or coastal hopping to the Black Sea is frankly ridiculous. The sea is never a safe place, even for properly designed and equipped sea going boats. Weather conditions can change at an incredible speed and there is no possibilty of using speed or power to keep bow on to a seaway, or making quickly for the nearest port. It is a recipe for total disaster. Even forgetting the basic unsuitability of the design, fitting out a narrowboat for seagoing would require a big investment in water sealing, strengthening, safety and emergency equipment, navigation equipment and the ability, knowledge and experience to use it.

 

If going to sea is something that narrowboaters want to do, it is not that expensive to get a small offshore boat that can handle the sea safely, probably not a great deal more for an older boat than preparing a narrowboat to frighten yourself in. The alternative for those to whom the sea is an irresistable draw, is to buy a sea going boat to live on.

 

I personally love the sea and the adventure and challenge that it offers and I bought a small motorsailer three years ago for precisely that reason, but I certainly wouldn't risk my home and my life by taking my widebeam to sea.

 

 

Roger

[magnetman]

If going to sea is something that narrowboaters want to do, it is not that expensive to get a small offshore boat that can handle the sea safely, probably not a great deal more for an older boat than preparing a narrowboat to frighten yourself in. The alternative for those to whom the sea is an irresistable draw, is to buy a sea going boat to live on.

 

Narrowboats are the wrong thing for the sea. I can see how you might do this if you were keen on press coverage because you were advertising some kind of onboard sanitary system and always had a backup plan and good insurance. Its a bit like getting deliberately stuck on a tidal bar for example, I remember the photo and the associated advetising, don't tell me it was an accident because I don't believe it.

If you want to go to france in a narrowboat do the deep rough bit on a lorry that's what I'd reckon.

[Blue_skies]

If you want to go to france in a narrowboat do the deep rough bit on a lorry that's what I'd reckon.

 

That's a thought at the back of my mind. That may be the way to go for a couple of reasons. Still, finding out about these things - asking the questions, and hearing other people's experiences - is part of the fun Still wondering about that trans-atlantic narrow boat, "Francis". Do we believe it?