French permis and other questions

[expatboatee]

So, the story is that I've been a canal anorak since the 60's, but last week took hubby on a canal (lateral a la loire) in France for a week, and he is bitten almost as much as me, so, being all set to sell up and do it, the question is, given that we live in France, how does one go about getting a permis? I had a quick look at the French vnf website but it's hard work (we're thinking up to 20m).

I'm sure there are many here that are liveaboard in France (well several anyway).

At coming up 68 (hubby) is it a ridiculous idea? (we're already in the French health system, so that's a start)

Wide beam UK boat or dutch barge (dutch barges are more expensive and we'll have limited funds)?

Any boatbuilders in France that build sensible boats? I see Piper do but they're a bit pricey too.

New hull and superstucture or fitted out and not knowing what's going on beneath the floor?

Any redirection to appropriate blogs/websites gratefully received.

Any information about anything relative also gratefully received!

[Guest]

http://www.barges.org

 

Will have more relevant info.

 

There are not many boaters on here who boat in France.

[The Pipe]

Buy in Holland, (generally cheaper than France). Keep it on Dutch ICP and stay below 15m length.

Have alook at these sites.

http://www.yachtfocus.com/

http://www.botentekoop.nl/

http://www.multiships.nl/index.php

[expatboatee]

Thanks, but why below 15m?

[The Pipe]

Thanks, but why below 15m?

You run into a new set of rules and regulations if you are over 15m. Keeping your boat on the dutch register (ICP) is also easier as they are very pro boating without the agro.

Tam and Di or Bargemast will be along to give you all the upto date spiel which I cannot remember and have nothing to hand.

[Albion]

Thanks, but why below 15m?

Because some, and I stress some, ports are not welcoming or designed for craft longer than 15m. Having said that we (with a 16m boat) have yet to find one that refused to allow us to moor but, for example, Chalon sur Saone is reputed to measure your craft and refuse mooring if you are over 15m. We have had to lash to some very short pontoons in places and felt that we were definitely the max loading that the pontoons could take.

Roger

Edited to add that I'm pretty sure that the new regulations start at 20m and not 15m (as stated above) for France. I have the ICC plus CEVNI endorsement for my 16m barge in France.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Albion

[expatboatee]

Because some, and I stress some, ports are not welcoming or designed for craft longer than 15m. Having said that we (with a 16m boat) have yet to find one that refused to allow us to moor but, for example, Chalon sur Saone is reputed to measure your craft and refuse mooring if you are over 15m. We have had to lash to some very short pontoons in places and felt that we were definitely the max loading that the pontoons could take.

Roger

Edited to add that I'm pretty sure that the new regulations start at 20m and not 15m (as stated above) for France. I have the ICC plus CEVNI endorsement for my 16m barge in France.

Hmm, I did read that someone was recently 'turfed out' from Decize for being over length . Even with a 11m hire boat we found the pontoons at Beffes a bit short. It seems that hire boats are the plat du jour!

 

http://www.barges.org

 

Will have more relevant info.

 

There are not many boaters on here who boat in France.

Hmm, been there and it looks good, but the membership fee is a bit steep for no guarantees of useful information.

Not that I'm a cheapskate, but every penny counts! OK, I'm a cheapskate!

 

If you're up that way, Briare looks like somewhere I would really like to stay, long term. The lovely capitain is fantastically helpful and a pretty little town to boot.

Thanks for all your answers

Edited October 13, 2014 by expatboatee

[Guest]

expatboatee" data-cid="1417069" data-time="1413230313" data-date="Today, 08:58 PM said:

Hmm, I did read that someone was recently 'turfed out' from Decize for being over length . Even with a 11m hire boat we found the pontoons at Beffes a bit short. It seems that hire boats are the plat du jour!

 

 

Hmm, been there and it looks good, but the membership fee is a bit steep for no guarantees of useful information.

Not that I'm a cheapskate, but every penny counts! OK, I'm a cheapskate!

 

If you're up that way, Briare looks like somewhere I would really like to stay, long term. The lovely capitain is fantastically helpful and a pretty little town to boot.

Thanks for all your answers

The membership fee here is nowt and you still get no guarantee of useful information.

 

Why persist in trying to get good info on the French waterways here....you won't, or rather you will get some advice but more relevant and comprehensive advice will be forthcoming on the DBA site and forum.

 

As I indicated try a more relevant site...

Edited October 14, 2014 by The Dog House

[Albion]

Hmm, I did read that someone was recently 'turfed out' from Decize for being over length . Even with a 11m hire boat we found the pontoons at Beffes a bit short. It seems that hire boats are the plat du jour!

 

Hmm, been there and it looks good, but the membership fee is a bit steep for no guarantees of useful information.

Not that I'm a cheapskate, but every penny counts! OK, I'm a cheapskate!

 

If you're up that way, Briare looks like somewhere I would really like to stay, long term. The lovely capitain is fantastically helpful and a pretty little town to boot.

Thanks for all your answers

Funnily enough a friend of mine with a 17m barge was welcomed into Decize marina for a temporary mooring so I'm not sure what/if they have any rule or what length it might preclude if they do.

Briare is quite a good port (albeit down a three lock embranchment) and the capitaine is a friend of mine. Nearly thought of moving there but decided against it for a variety of reasons.

Roger

[Boaty Jo]

Join the DBA if just starting out.

It's £35 and there is plenty of information on regulations, technical, cruising guides (first-hand info on ports and their fees), training, licenses etc. etc.Plus a forum where you will get specific opinions (most helpful).

 

Under 20m is beneficial for technical reasons. Under 15 does allow you more mooring options (finger pontoons in ports for example) but we have a 19 m barge (not widebeam) and to be honest always find somewhere to moor. For a live-aboard 15 m or less may be restrictive and many cruiser-type boats are not really geared up for full-time living, particularly in winter. Widebeams have a great living space, particularly roomy because, having no side-deck to speak of they use all space available inside. The wider deck of a barge (generally) are better for clambering around outside when locking or mooring but we have a number of friends with widebeams in France and, as far as I know, love them and don't have a problem cruising. The configuration of bollards on a widebeam is not considered ideal by some 'purists' but again people who have them seem to manage just fine.

 

An ICC (International certificate of competance, I think) plus Cevni endorsement is generally recognised as a suitable qualification in Europe. A number of places do the course.

 

New-build barges can be very expensive (also dependent of level of spec) - often 200k plus (Piper, Delta, Euroshops for example). Older barges can be considerably less but, having checked out hull and engine with a survey, the cheaper ones will doubtless need upgrading so you will really some skills of your own because professional fees, including docking, can be very expensive and in France there are not that many boat yards.

 

The DBA site has much more on the above plus much more

 

There are beautiful canals and rivers. The canals Lateral a la Loire (and the remainder of the route Bourbonaise), the Nivernais, Bourgogne are examples. As are the rivers Saone, Yonne, Meuse etc. etc.

[expatboatee]

Thanks for all the info, I probably will join the DBA.

[Guest]

expatboatee, on 14 Oct 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Thanks for all the info, I probably will join the DBA.

 

Good move - £35 set alongside what the price of a suitable boat will be is peanuts frankly.

[bargemast]

Buy in Holland, (generally cheaper than France). Keep it on Dutch ICP and stay below 15m length.

Have alook at these sites.

http://www.yachtfocus.com/

http://www.botentekoop.nl/

http://www.multiships.nl/index.php

 

You are right Jim, there are many very good deals to be made in Holland, and also a huge choice of yards that could do work on the boat to adapt it more to your wishes.

 

If the OP is a resident in France, they won't be allowed to keep their boat Dutch registered, I kept mine on (long expired) Dutch papers until last year, after having had checks done by the Gendarmerie.

 

The total costs of changing to French registration for my only 15m boat was zero euros, which was just about within my financial possibilities.

 

And now I'm (or better my boat is) 100% legal.

 

Peter.

Edited October 14, 2014 by bargemast

[Boaty Jo]

Other sites to look at are:

 

http://www.bowcrest.com/

 

http://www.fikkers.nl/

http://www.doevemakelaar.nl/

Through the DBA you can get The Barge-buyers Handbook which is a really useful introduction.

I am not aware of any existing barge-builders in France. I've seen the odd French-built barge but they seem to be one-offs.

There are many original (many converted) barges up to 140 years-old, some of which are lovely - Dutch, Belgian, UK or French built.

Examples of more recently built second-hand ones, with a good reputation, are Sagar, Euroclassic and Piper.

You could also research boat-builders in Poland and the Czech Republic. The boat in front of us now is Czech-built and a good looking ship. They sailed from the builders via the Elbe (I think) through Germany and Holland to Belgium.

[bargemast]

Another site with quite a few boats and barges for sale www.apolloduck.fr

 

There are a few boatbuilders in France, but their prices are much above the UK builders prices.

 

If you are very good at DIY you can buy a barge in kit form with precut steel, it's a lot of work and will more than likely take several years to get to a stage where you can use the boat, which is fine when your only 20 or 30 years old, but after the retirement age, I think that it's better to compromise and try to be happy with an existing boat/barge and enjoy life on the water straightaway.

 

You can also invest in a French magazine named "FLUVIAL" which always has lots of ads of boats for sale.

 

Peter.

Edited October 14, 2014 by bargemast

[expatboatee]

Thanks for all the useful links and tips

[Bee]

I wouldn't dismiss the idea of a cruiser type boat. There are stacks of them in Holland, mostly steel even if they look like GRP and often very good value for money, they might not be 100% ideal for living on long term but could be worth thinking about.

[Wanted]

Would be worth PMing Tam and Di on here, they know their stuff.

[bargemast]

Would be worth PMing Tam and Di on here, they know their stuff.

 

That's a useful suggestion.

 

Peter.

[blackrose]

I think he will just repeat his mantra about narrowboats and widebeams being unsuitable, when plenty of people seem to do just fine in France in these unsuitable boats. Like I've always said, you work with what you've got and we can't all afford Dutch barges.

Edited October 16, 2014 by blackrose

[Guest]

I think he will just repeat his mantra about narrowboats and widebeams being unsuitable, when plenty of people seem to do just fine in France in these unsuitable boats. Like I've always said, you work with what you've got and we can't all afford Dutch barges.

[Albion]

I think he will just repeat his mantra about narrowboats and widebeams being unsuitable, when plenty of people seem to do just fine in France in these unsuitable boats. Like I've always said, you work with what you've got and we can't all afford Dutch barges.

And when you have had some experience on those waters you will know why narrow boats and wide beam nbs with narrow gunwales are not as safe and comfortable to use on those waters as they are in the UK compared to Dutch barge style boats. No-one is saying that you can't manage, you could manage in a canoe, but it won't be as safe or as pleasant an experience as it should be because they aren't craft ideally suited to those types of waterways. But why let real experience outshout hearsay eh?

Roger

Edited October 25, 2014 by Albion

[EU_Cruiser]

Also very useful

 

http://www.eurocanals.com/

 

http://www.french-waterways.com/

[expatboatee]

Thanks all I think we'll probably go the Dutch barge route eventually, maybe a sailaway or a half finished project. Wide beam boats seem to make the best use of space, but I do like the wide gunwales at my age, and hubby would like indoor driving in bad weather! It's not something that's going to happen overnight as we'll have to sell a house or two first, and that could take forever, so plenty of time to look around at types. Anyone want a French house that's the furthest away from a canal that you could possibly get? That was really bad planning on my part - a house on a canal would be perfect now.

[Tam & Di]

I think he will just repeat his mantra about narrowboats and widebeams being unsuitable, when plenty of people seem to do just fine in France in these unsuitable boats. Like I've always said, you work with what you've got and we can't all afford Dutch barges.

 

 

Hmm,,, I didn't see this at the time, but got here by a link from the current "Looking to buy a boat in France" thread. I do indeed think that standard UK narrowboats are unsuited to continental inland waterways, but I do always give my reasons and have made suggestions to how they can be modified to make them safer. Simply repeatedly saying "people do it" does not advance the discussion or offer practical advice, and inexperienced narrowboaters contemplating the idea can be seriously misled.

 

What TDH really needs is a "smug" na-na-ne-nanah icon.

 

Tam