Red Diesel

[david and julie]

I live on a boat (well call it a 360 day a year holiday for technical purposes), I have a diesel engine and I have two fuel tanks but I have never found it necessary to run my engine to charge the batteries as a portable petrol generator does the job very nicely and cost effectively (soon to become a whole lot more cost effective). I run solid fuel heating and I would never change that except if there was a supply problem.

As far as heating is concerned, thats a good point perhaps people should start thinking about using solid fuel rather than heating oil or maybe fitting a second tank would be sensible on a residential boat.

Boats in themselves are essentially a leisure activity. Living on a boat is a CHOICE. Modifying your habits may be required to align yourself with the overall prevailing situation and perhaps living on a boat will become less attractive. I think this could be a good thing.

edit: crossed with the next post...

 

How does an increase in tax on diesel make a petrol generator more cost effective?

Surely the running costs of your fire hazard are unaffected by all this?

 

Boats may well(in the main) be a leisure activity but what about the biggest polluters of the lot-aeroplanes-surely the vast majority of flights are people going on holiday, which also happens to be a leisure activity, why can they use cheap fuel?

[NB Alnwick]

Boats may well(in the main) be a leisure activity but what about the biggest polluters of the lot-aeroplanes-surely the vast majority of flights are people going on holiday, which also happens to be a leisure activity, why can they use cheap fuel?

 

Probably because they have a wider choice of suppliers - petrol is still 7p a litre in some countries but we can't take our boats and cars there to fill up whenever we need to.

 

Aircraft can!

 

Competition keeps the prices down - even when it is governments that are competing for tax revenue!

[magnetman]

I was using the term 'cost effective' to mean 'as compared with the alternatives'.

Solar panels are sometimes described as 'cost effective' or 'not cost effective' (more often) which is directly linked to the cost of available alternative power supplies (assuming no mains connection). If diesel and petrol were £5 a litre then solar panels could definitely be described as more 'cost effective' than they are at the moment. In the same way, if red diesel were to increase to 75-100p per litre then a petrol generator, the fuel for which will not have increased in cost by the same amount, could be described as 'a whole lot more cost effective'.

 

That's what i meant.

[carlt]

I was using the term 'cost effective' to mean 'as compared with the alternatives'.

Solar panels are sometimes described as 'cost effective' or 'not cost effective' (more often) which is directly linked to the cost of available alternative power supplies (assuming no mains connection). If diesel and petrol were £5 a litre then solar panels could definitely be described as more 'cost effective' than they are at the moment. In the same way, if red diesel were to increase to 75-100p per litre then a petrol generator, the fuel for which will not have increased in cost by the same amount, could be described as 'a whole lot more cost effective'.

 

That's what i meant.

Red diesel will remain the same, we just won't be allowed to put it in our boats. You'll still be able to put it in a diesel generator so it will still be cheaper. Red diesel will still be available at lots of places serving farmers and lorry drivers (they use it in their refrigeration units). Napton agrage sell it for instance (they've only just stopped selling pumped paraffin). Crick truck stop also do it but they're expensive.

[magnetman]

Red diesel will remain the same, we just won't be allowed to put it in our boats. You'll still be able to put it in a diesel generator so it will still be cheaper. Red diesel will still be available at lots of places serving farmers and lorry drivers (they use it in their refrigeration units). Napton agrage sell it for instance (they've only just stopped selling pumped paraffin). Crick truck stop also do it but they're expensive.

Good point only I'm stuck on this 'single tank' track at the moment and people running their main engine to charge up. I think buying a petrol generator would be better than modifying the boat to have two tanks and anyway how could you run the main engine off two different typrs of fuel legally?. I don't like noisy generators so diesel units, unless fairly expensive, are a bit out of the question in my view, in terms of environmental noise nuisance.

[carlt]

It's not really about using a lot or a little electricity, it's about paying the correct amount of duty for the amount you use. Why should those who live on boats be penalised with an unfair tax for their electricity, when the rest of the population doesn't?

 

As for those who use diesel heaters changing to solid fuel - fine, but who pays for the conversion? We're potentially talking £500 - £700 or more by the time you do the whole job. The point is they shouldn't have to change - some people such as retired people on boats would rather not handle 25kg bags of coal for example.

 

I used to live in a village with no gas. One day the gas board came and put a pipe down the high street. They sent me a letter saying 'sign up for gas it's great. Give us £700 and we'll connect you to our main.' I told them to get stuffed, I was fine with solid fuel and I didn't see why I should pay for the pipe. I exercised my choice as to what fuel I would use, everybody else in the village also chose and paid the gas board the £700.

 

If you don't want to pay the higher rate then you'll have to fit another tank, or use another power source. Other people have to, Why shouldn't we?

 

 

 

 

Good point only I'm stuck on this 'single tank' track at the moment and people running their main engine to charge up. I think buying a petrol generator would be better than modifying the boat to have two tanks and anyway how could you run the main engine off two different typrs of fuel legally?. I don't like noisy generators so diesel units, unless fairly expensive, are a bit out of the question in my view, in terms of environmental noise nuisance.

Agreed, but people are far too hung up about using their engines for leccy anyway. Things change, we've got to change as well. Or break the law and try to get away with it but will that be any better than bridge hopping/ licence evasion?

[magnetman]

Someone AGREES with me

 

[carlt]

Someone AGREES with me

 

I couldn't bear it if I broke my engine for the sake of corry or a cold pint of milk. If the solar panels can't cope then my little B&Q genny (£69 and 13 hrs to a gallon) tops the batteries up.

[NB Alnwick]

I couldn't bear it if I broke my engine for the sake of corry or a cold pint of milk. If the solar panels can't cope then my little B&Q genny (£69 and 13 hrs to a gallon) tops the batteries up.

 

I certainly wouldn't want to break my engine just to watch television but diesel engines were designed to be run rather than sit around as ornaments. We have a strict regime of running the main engine for at least two hours every week and batteries are being charged while so doing. During the first hour we try and keep the engine under load and if we are on our Winter Mooring this may be achieved by tootling along to the Marina and winding or down to the water point - or both - sometimes we go a little further and sometimes we don't move at all but I don't want to have that argument all over again!

 

It usually takes the whole of that first hour for the engine coolant to reach an operating temperature of at least 40 degrees - thereafter we may let it tickover in neutral which is in accordance with the makers instructions. While the engine is running we check oil and water levels and lubricate the various grease and oil points. After shutting the engine down we give it a good clean and make sure no oil, coolant or fuel has leaked anywhere, we check that all nuts, bolts and hose clips are tight and then throughly clean the whole thing down (including the bilge beneath the engine and gearbox) with dry cotton waste.

 

I believe that this regime is important to the preservation of the engine because it keeps the bearing surfaces coated with sufficient effective lubricant, it protects the pistons, bores, valves and guides from harmful corrosion and it circulates the coolant thus keeping the leather and composition seals in the circulation pump etc. properly lubricated. It also reassures me that the engine will start and run when required - always nice to know.

 

When I haven't got that excuse for running our beautiful engine, the cheap petrol genny charges the batteries - usually from the stern deck or from the towpath - but it is nowhere near as satisfying . . .

[redfastlad]

I dont know about everyone else but i dont see the problem with it. I dont see why narrowboats should get a tax break that other people do not.

So caravans get away with nothing tax is that ok ?? thay tow em with 25 grand 4x4 trucks and hold everyone up so that is ok eh??????

[Gary Peacock]

I can't wait for the fun to start! Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs are a shambles at trying to organise a lot of the things they are responsible for now the thought of their Laurel & Hardy officers trying to determine what fuel a boat runs on is going to be definitely worth President Tony's BBC in team producing a fly on the wall documentary on!

[Guest]

I can't wait for the fun to start! Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs are a shambles at trying to organise a lot of the things they are responsible for now the thought of their Laurel & Hardy officers trying to determine what fuel a boat runs on is going to be definitely worth President Tony's BBC in team producing a fly on the wall documentary on!

Glad someone shares my level of confidence in these plonkers. I still doubt if many people will take a blind bit of notice of the white diesel thing on the cut. Many don't appear to be even aware of it.

[RobinR]

Glad someone shares my level of confidence in these plonkers. I still doubt if many people will take a blind bit of notice of the white diesel thing on the cut. Many don't appear to be even aware of it.

And how will boaters in general view the continued use of red diesel post November 2008? Rather like motorists view other speeding motorists I suspect? Unlike petrol, diesel can be transported in quantity in plastic drums etc so a couple of 5 gallon jerrycans may now be useful! Fuel supply depots will generally sell red diesel to anyone willing to pay and they are not currently required to record purchasers' details for quantities less than 90 liters (4 X 5 gallon jerrycans = 90.8 liters). Furthermore, a boater refuling from jerry cans may be using red diesel or simply taking advantage of cheaper supermarket white diesel prices or even forced down this route because their waterside fuel is no longer available - in which case a trip to the local fuel depot may be not much more effort than the local supermarket!

Edited April 17, 2007 by RobinR

[carlt]

And how will boaters in general view the continued use of red diesel post November 2008?

Presumably with the same disgust and derision some view boaters who don't pay their licence fees, or don't follow the cc regs to the letter.

[fuzzyduck]

Ohhhhh, I missed this opportunity to find a whole new class of boater to look down on.

 

I will view boaters who continue to use red in the same way I view em all "good on 'em, hope they don't get caught"

[RobinR]

Presumably with the same disgust and derision some view boaters who don't pay their licence fees, or don't follow the cc regs to the letter.

So why don't most motorists treat most speeding motorists in the same way? There will surely be some boaters who will act as you suggest but where will the general concensus lie? I will be VERY surprised if any significant majority of boaters critisize the ongoing use of red diesel in fact, in proprtional terms, I would expect a relatively higher level of criticism for speeding motorists due to increased potential for personal injury - unlikely with the continuing use of red diesel. Are you critical towards speeding motorists?

[CanalWalker]

I can remember when drink driving was okay, same as speeding motorists are now. Cheating on the tax on fuel is no different to benefit fraud or any other tax evasion.

[RobinR]

I can remember when drink driving was okay, same as speeding motorists are now. Cheating on the tax on fuel is no different to benefit fraud or any other tax evasion.

Whilst I agree fully, where will the general concensus lie? Drink driving is a killer as is speeding - be it less so. Speed limits were introduced in the 1930's and still routinely ignored. This tax is new and potentially more challenging to police especially in canals where passing boaters will exchange an appropriately informative comment or traffic volume is so low a check will be virtually unproductive. How many CBers evaded payment of an amateur radio licence during the 1970's and saved the cost of the training course and associated C&G exam and morse proficiency test without worryong about interference to other users of the radio spectrum eg TV viewers? And who was worried??? (Other than TV viewers affected!!)

[carlt]

Whilst I agree fully, where will the general concensus lie? Drink driving is a killer as is speeding - be it less so. Speed limits were introduced in the 1930's and still routinely ignored. This tax is new and potentially more challenging to police especially in canals where passing boaters will exchange an appropriately informative comment or traffic volume is so low a check will be virtually unproductive. How many CBers evaded payment of an amateur radio licence during the 1970's and saved the cost of the training course and associated C&G exam and morse proficiency test without worryong about interference to other users of the radio spectrum eg TV viewers? And who was worried??? (Other than TV viewers affected!!)

 

Have you thought of switching to half-caff?

 

Speed doesn't kill, inappropriate speed kills. The old dear in the middle lane doing 45 is far more dangerous than the repmobile in the fast lane doing 90. Until the govt. stop using the speed laws as a revenue earner people won't respect those laws.

 

CBers didn't evade payment of a ham licence. They had no interest in Ham radio and (though having an amateur radio licence many many moons ago) I don't entirely disagree with them.

 

The morse proficiency test was as pointless pre 81 as it is now. The elitism of only allowing you to transmit radio signals if you pass a test is pure intellectual snobbery. People used the old 27meg am cb sets because it was the only format available to them and, as soon 27meg FM was legalised in 81, the old AM became deserted as people switched to the legal frequencies.

 

And letting people who couldn't pass the Ham exams loose on the airwaves hasn't signalled the end of civilisation as we know it.

Edited April 17, 2007 by carlt

[fuzzyduck]

Can somebody help me?

 

I fail to see the link beween someone being a bit naughty with red diesel, and speeding. I can't even see the link between it, and benefit fraud.

[Guest]

Can somebody help me?

 

I fail to see the link beween someone being a bit naughty with red diesel, and speeding. I can't even see the link between it, and benefit fraud.

Well to answer your question, they are all illegal. But then again the vast majority of people will break the law if they know that there is little chance of being caught. Who can say they have never broken a copyright law for instance?

[fuzzyduck]

ahhhh, they're illegal.

 

That explains it. So just because something is illegal, we should all automatically look down on it.

 

I'm sorted now. thanks

[Guest]

ahhhh, they're illegal.

 

That explains it. So just because something is illegal, we should all automatically look down on it.

 

I'm sorted now. thanks

I didn't say that Fuzzy..........

[fuzzyduck]

I know you didn't

[Guest]

I know you didn't