starting problem BMC 1.5 engine after overhauling

[walli]

Hello. Being a newcomer I hope not to do anything wrong. So hello again.

 

I am just finishing a 10-year refit of a boat with a BMC 1.5 Engine. 5 years ago, when I had to move the boat the engine started right up and ran well although it had not been running for 5 years.

From then until now:

Broke off a glow plug, which made me take off the head. Had the head plained and valves fitted in. Put in new injectors and new glow plugs, looked at the lift pump. I did not touch the diesel pump. All put together again the engine sat in the basement for 5 years. I turn the crankshaft occasionally

Recently I put it back in the boat and it will not start. It sounds as if it is shortly before starting. (in between running on its own and being helped by the starter).

Blead the system again and again, filter, diesel pump, governor top bleeding valve and pipes. Diesel comes squirting out of pipes. Put in a new main fuel filter and checked all the hoses and diesel pipes. Disattached secondary fuel filter. Engine will not start.

Had a leak in the throttle lever so I put in new seals rings for throttle and stop levers, checked the metering valve. As far as I could see it was not stuck – did not take it out since I was not sure about getting it in again. Engine will not start. If I don’t glow for at least 30 seconds there is no firing at all.

I even put a hot air blower to the air intake. And guess what, engine will not start.

 

I am a bit frustrated because the damn thing was running fairly good before I started fooling with it, but the glow plugs had to be changed.

Can it be that its not getting enough fuel, can the diesel pump gets clogged up while standing 5 years? Can it be cleaned without taking it apart? I read something about flushing with transmission fluid to unstick a metering valve etc.

Can it be the new injectors? Can I check them myself?

As soon as I get a gage I will check the compression, which should actually be OK.

 

Does anyone have an idea what might be wrong?

What can I check or do next?

 

Douglas

[bizzard]

Valve clearances. Engine stop control on stop position.

[walli]

Thanks bizzard,

Stop is on the on position - diesel comes out of pipes when cranking the engine. Valve clearence was adjusted with a gage according to the BMC 1.5 handbook. But it might be good to double check that.

Doug

[RLWP]

How is the low pressure side of the fuel system piped up?

 

The 1.5 is a sod to bleed, especially that bleed screw on top of the spindle housing.

 

Richard

Edited August 23, 2014 by RLWP

[Tony Brooks]

Once you have double checked the bleeding try this:

 

Stop control in RUN.

 

Throttle set to high speed.

 

Remove the pipe entering the fuel filter at the union with the arrow on the filter head pointing INTO the filter head.

 

Spin on the starter with VERY WELL CHARGED batteries. Fuel should pour out of the pipe and you will be using the full transfer pump pressure to flush any air from the pump.

 

How much smoke is coming from the exhaust when cranking (with a well charged battery)? It should be clouds if the fuel system is OK - even with lowish compressions, if it is only a few wisps then you have a fuel problem. I suspect you may have got the parts of the governor valve on the wrong side of the flats on the lever shafts when you changed the seals.

[walli]

"Remove the pipe entering the fuel filter at the union with the arrow on the filter head pointing INTO the filter head.

 

How much smoke is coming from the exhaust when cranking (with a well charged battery)? It should be clouds if the fuel system is OK - even with lowish compressions, if it is only a few wisps then you have a fuel problem. I suspect you may have got the parts of the governor valve on the wrong side of the flats on the lever shafts when you changed the seals"

 

 

I will give that with the "pipe entering the fuel filter" a go tomorrow. I think I did a good job bleeding the system, since diesel squirts out of the fuel injection pipes when I crank the engine.

 

Do you mean metering valve when you say "governor valve"? When I changed the seals I lifted up the washer on top of the metering valve up with a little screw driver through the stop hole to get the throttle shaft in easy. After that the stop went in quite easy while jiggling the throttle shaft. After doing this there was no big change by the start procedure. I got a lot of dark grey smelly smoke but no running.

 

I live in Hamburg where a BMC engine is not common. The Bosch Service who supplied me with new injectors might have made a mistake (I'm not sure). Could this be the problem. If so I will have to do some heavy research on this topic.

 

How is the low pressure side of the fuel system piped up?

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Fuel tank - Lift pump - Fuel filter - Injection pump.

 

Thanks to all of you for now, I will let you know what happens after the next bleeding session.

 

Doug

[Guest]

I will let you know what happens after the next bleeding session.

 

 

Doug

 

An entirely appropriate (if unintended) comment on elusive mechanical faults!

[walli]

I did a lot of bleeding this week. Checked the governor again - throttle and stop as Tony recommended. Had big hopes but things are still the same.

I put together a little video with starting sound, smoke colour, bleeding sessions, that might help ( its short) to find a diagnoses. Please take a look. http://youtu.be/CBApUeup60c I got hold of a compression gage but probably need an adaptor since I live in the metric part of the world.

I would like to unscrew the injectors first, to see if something comes out when I crank the engine over. Is that OK to do and how much should spray out? I have a feeling the whole thing has to do with the new injectors. Some people say I should spray starting aid into the filter. Others say you can kill an engine buy doing so, so I will leave that be.

OK what's next? Bleeding again? Compression? Valves?

One by one - I know it is going to run sooner or later, but sooner would be great.

Doug

[lexicon]

Did you do up the injector pipes one at a time ? While trying to start?

[Tony Brooks]

I could not see enough detail in the images to comment on the bleeding but it did appear that one injector at least was beld properly.

 

Despite that I would say the exhaust smoke indicated no fuel being injected.

 

As long as you keep all parts of your body well out of the way of the spray from the injectors and make sure you can not fall or stumble over it then your idea about taking the injectors out, inverting them in their large unions (no need for the leak off pipes) and spinning the engine to check if they spray is not such a bad idea. However it is POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS if the spray hits you, it can go right through the skin and may give you dermatitis or worse - TAKE GREAT CARE.

 

When you have the injectors out use a torch to look down the holes. You should see a small (say 4mm) hole at the bottom. If you see a much larger one (say 12 mm +) them you have lost the inverted top hat heat shields - possibly came out with the injectors and the diesel mechanic failed to return them to you. However although without the heat shields the compression would not be enough to start I would have thought it would still have been enough to make clouds of smoke if the fuel was being delivered.

[walli]

 

Did you do up the injector pipes one at a time ? While trying to start?

Had all 4 off, all injecting fuel. Put two on again cranked the engine over and just left the last one to take a picture.

 

Thanks Tony, will give it a try this week.

Doug

[walli]

Hello, it looks like I am getting closer. Took out all 4 injectors and left them on there injection pipes. (Heat shields and copper washers where installed). Cranked the engine and only two sprayed. Nr. 3 dripped a bit and Nr. 4 nothing. Changed them to different pipes and the same two where OK. Took them to the Boesch Service where I bought them and had them adjusted for a lot of money 4 years ago. I did not use them in the meantime. That seems to be the problem. The boesch man told me they are probably gummed up so he put them into an ultra sonic bath and things did not get better. They took them apart and showed me the corrosion on the outsides of the injectors. They say they are also corrosive inside, since they where not used and rinsed thru and thru with diesel, but only with the test fluid 4 years ago. It seems they are ruined. He offered me to get new ones from Delphi (same as I had) for 60 Euro each.

 

I would like to get the injectors from GB since the prices seem to be much more reasonable.

I saw these by ASAP ( http://www.asap-supplies.com/brands/bmc-leyland/injector-nozzle-only-bmc-1-5-diesel ) and since they are so cheap compared to here I would like to ask if they are OK. I bought other things from ASAP already and was very satisfied and know that they ship to Hamburg.

I also found these by eBay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/bmc-1-5-bmc-1-8-Diesel-engine-cav-Injector-new-nozzles-/281312681044?pt=UK_BOI_FarmingEquipment_RL&hash=item417f8adc54

 

As soon as I have the injectors the Boesch Service will mount and test them for a very fair price – a donation to the coffee box.

And then the engine should be running again. – I hope.

Thanks for your help – Somehow it is good for ones own confidence having people helping.

I will let you know what happens.

Doug

[Tony Brooks]

But you only need the nozzles, not the whole injector. Once the nozzle is off everything else is really crude and can be cleaned up with a rotary wire brush.

 

Here you go http://www.asap-supplies.com/brands/bmc-leyland/injector-nozzle-only-bmc-1-5-diesel Less than £14 each. Unfortunately you then need to fit them (you could do that) and then get the injection pressure set. As they are new nozzles dribble and leak back should not be a problem. If you have the BMC manual with the break pressure in it ask the Bosch agent how much he would charge to just set the pressures. Just leave the needle in the nozzle when you take the plastic protection off the new nozzles.

 

If you do the job just make sure you use lint free cloth (cloth that does not shed hairs) and use a bowl of clean diesel to wash everything off before and during assembly.

[walli]

I just orderd the nozzles. It might take a while until they get here. Will let you know what happens.

Doug

[Tony Brooks]

When you strip the injectors you should find two "pins" in the injector body that locate in the nozzle. These sometimes jamb in the nozzle. If any do you will have to pull them out and tap them back into the body (make sure the part you gripped goes into the body, not the nozzle).

 

The pins locate the nozzle relative to the body and are vital on pintaux nozzles so the auxiliary spray hole is in the correct position.

[walli]

A short up-to-date. It is getting very frustrating. After I received the new injectors from A.S.A.P., I brought them to the Boesch Service. I took a while to insert them into the holders and adjust the pressure (135 PSI). When I picked them up the man told me they had a hard time adjusting them and one of the injectors had a production failure. Instead of that one, they build in one of their injectors and of course charged me again. I am starting to find this suspicious, but they are known to be the leading Boesch Service in Hamburg. With the man’s words in my mind, that now everything will be fine, I went to the boat and build in the new injectors, bleed the system once again just to be sure, glowed a while and tried to start. I got a short interval of “it could be running know”, but that was it. The engine just will not start.

What comes next?

I will remove the injectors once more and see if they spray, if so I will put them in again and check all glow plugs and injector mountings with soup water to see if there is a compression leak. Put a torch to the air intake and try a new start. If this does not work what comes next? Check the Valves for clearance? I cannot get hold of a compression gage that fits the thread of the glow plugs so I cannot check the compression.

I do not have too much time for the boat at the moment. As soon as it gets cold the engine will probably be more difficult to start. I want to get it into the water next spring so something has to happen.

Does anyone have some good ideas?

Douglas

[RLWP]

BMC 1.5 engines can be very tricky to bleed

 

Richard

[Tony Brooks]

How much smoke is coming from the exhaust while cranking?

 

A few wisps (very little) = no fuel.

 

Clouds of it = fuel but no ignitions so it could be no glowplugs, low compression, faulty injection pump timing or in extreme cases faulty valve timing (which will in turn put the pump timing out).

[walli]

The glowplugs are new. I did not change anything on the injection pump setting and did not change anything with the timing chain.

I will give it another good bleed and take a look at the smoke - end of the week.

Douglas

[Eeyore]

The glowplugs are new. I did not change anything on the injection pump setting and did not change anything with the timing chain.

I will give it another good bleed and take a look at the smoke - end of the week.

Douglas

Its sounds like its trying to start, so even a little help may achieve a start.

Try connecting the glow plugs to a separate battery whilst cranking. They will not be affected by the volt drop on the starter battery, and will operate at full power whilst cranking.

With luck it might be just the little extra that makes the difference.

Leaving the glow plugs connected for a short time after starting is also helpful (common on recent diesel cars i believe).

I did consider wiring the glow plugs to the cabin/domestic batteries via a relay on my BMC, but a change of engine happened first!

Steve (Eeyore)

[Galeomma]

How much smoke is coming from the exhaust while cranking?

 

A few wisps (very little) = no fuel.

 

Clouds of it = fuel but no ignitions so it could be no glowplugs, low compression, faulty injection pump timing or in extreme cases faulty valve timing (which will in turn put the pump timing out).

Agree with Tony here, look at the smoke. My friends Lister wouldn't start but was throwing out white smoke, Turned out to be the glowplug relay. Then once I fitted the new one. no start. but no smoke because the stop lever hadn't reset. It can be a multitude of things but get rid of the easy ones first.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Galeomma

[walli]

The engine is running.

 

It does not really sound good but it is running. Please see the video

http://youtu.be/oOAvkQvJ02U

 

1. I finally checked the valve clearance. One valve was completely off - the adjustment screw was loose. Others seemed to be a bit tight. I loosened these up and adjusted all the valves to a tight 0.40 mm, which is a bit looser than 0.015 inch, but I only had a metric gage with me.

2. I took all the injectors out of the block to test if they spray. They all sprayed. Somehow I had put two atomising washers in the wrong way before. ( but would this really matter??)

3. Filled in 5 ml of motor oil in each piston before I put the injectors back in to increase the compression.

4. Took out a glow plug to check if it glows – it did and I am pretty sure the others also glow since they are new.

 

Put everything back together again.

 

5. Glowed for 20 sec. and started.

 

The engine ran a bit and stalled, like as if it was not getting enough fuel.

 

After unscrewing the full-gas stop screw, to let the throttle give a bit more diesel, the engine started.

 

It seems when I took the governor top off to change the seal rings on the throttle and stop lever, I must have messed up something when putting the throttle lever back in. Is this possible? The stop works but I cannot rev up the engine. Full throttle is high idle speed now.

I may have to open the governor top again and see if I can get the throttle in another position. If not the lack of fuel might have something to do with the injection pump?

 

That is only one of my current problems.

(Just on the side to starting problems: while the engine was running I noticed that oil was leaking out of the crank shaft gasket, which I had renewed – bad luck, because I can not get at it without lifting the engine out.)

 

The engine is running but it does not sound good. I find it is knocking dangerously and missing on at least one piston.

 

What could that be?

Valve Clearance? If so I can re-adjust them with an inch gage.

Missing injection or something deeper.

 

The engine brought me up from Ibiza to Hamburg over the waterways and rivers 10 years ago and ran well 5 years ago. I did not touch much, but might have made the mistake to store it in a damp basement for 5 years.

 

I am very thank full for all the help I can get.

I will be on vacation for 2 weeks, more when I get back.

 

Douglas

[Tony Brooks]

If you have been using the bleed screw than many of these pumps have on the top of the turret between the stop and throttle lever you may well have screwed the idle damper down by turning the larger hexagon and lock nut rather than the 8mm hexagon mounted in/on the larger one. If you have then it will not rev up. You will need to look up the idle damper adjustment in the manual and reset it.

 

Er- you did take the timing cover off when you fitted the seal? Ideally you would to ensure that the cover and thus the seal was concentric with the crankshaft when it was refitted. Also how did you protect the new seal from the sharp edges on the front pulley key or key way. I would wrap them in insulating tape or Sellotape so the seal can slide over the tape rather than a sharp edge.

 

I just hope that the oil you poured down the injector holes did not cause a hydraulic lock so you now have a bent connecting rod or "hammered out" big end bearing.

 

I doubt the atomisation/crimped heat shield washer being the wrong way up will make a signification difference.

 

I am not sure anything is wrong with the sound, its a diesel, not a petrol engine and all I could hear was diesel knock - not uncommon on a cold engine. How do you know it is misfiring, did you loosen each injector pipe in turn to find which cylinder made no difference to the engine sound?

[bizzard]

And when refitting the timing case with the new oil seal you should have started all the bolts but left them completely slack, turned the engine over a couple of times to centralize the case seal on its track then hold the the case firmly with one hand against the block whilst nipping up all the bolts in an opposite manner. The seal will then run true and shouldn't leak providing its track is not too worn.

[walli]

Thanks a lot. I am taking a greek vacation tomorrow. Until afterwards,

Douglas