Deisel Genny's

[nmptwentyone]

Looking to get a bigger genny next month 5KVA ish, deisel and quiet as poss. been looking at the kipor KDA6700T off ebay. anyone got them? any good? dont mind spending a bit more if its worth it (better quality etc) anyone recommend anything?

[bottle]

Onan generators, usual proviso's but it is the one my builder fits.

[Gary Peacock]

A word of warning when it comes to generators it's very much a case of "you pay for what you get" generally speaking anything from the real marine world is very expensive but usually quite sophisticated.

 

The high RPM units (Around RPM) are not intended for long running periods and tend to fail quite often if you over use them so if the intension is to run it for long periods then a low RPM unit (Around 1500 RPM is much better.

 

Some of the cheapest marine units available are from Beta-marine and Thornycroft and we have fitted a number of each, they aren't bad units but are very agricultural when compared to some of the more sophisticated units common in the blue water market.

[bottle]

Hi nmp

 

Gary (Ledgard Bridge) is not my builder but my builder, says exactly the same.

 

Also talking to one of the generator marketers at Crick he also said the same, reference to the rpm that they run at.

[blackrose]

This is the one I'm looking at: http://www.advanceyacht.co.uk/marine-gener...000-compact.htm

 

It revs at 3000rpm but to get a 1500rmp model means a much bigger generator, unless anyone knows of a small 3-4kw diesel that runs at 1500rpm? I don't want to install a bigger one firstly because of the space it will take up in my engine bay, and secondly because I can't envisage using that much power and running light loads is no good for diesel engines.

 

Anyway, I can't find that Kipper KDA6700T generator - is it a built in model or a stand alone unit? My next generator is definately a built in, remote push button job. No more filling up from jerry cans & going outside in the rain to switch it off, unlock & put it away.

Edited January 15, 2007 by blackrose

[David]

I've got the Mastervolt Whisper 3.5, thats a 3Kv model runs our Washing machine direct after setting the frequency to 51/52 Hz no need for Pure sine inverter. Very compact will fit in about 400mm by 500mm space comes with remote control panel with about 4M of cable but expect to pay the thick end of £5000.00 even if you fit it yourself by the time you have added all the fittings.

The bigger models from the 6Kv up can be either 3000 rev's or 1500 rev's and as the service engineer was with me today returning mine which had had a leak from the oil change sump pump connection to the sump and collecting the one they had let me use he told me they now fit to the bigger models an Electronic Frequency Stabiliser to replace the throttle control and he says they hold 50 cycles spot on all the time.

david

[blackrose]

The latest one I've been looking at is the Northern Lights 4.5kw (1500 rpm)

 

http://www.tadiesels.com/gen-northern-m673ld2.html

 

http://www.northern-lights.com/

[Lesd]

what sort of price does this one come in at Mike ???

Rgds

Les

[blackrose]

what sort of price does this one come in at Mike ???

Rgds

Les

 

Hi Les, I had a quote from Energy Solutions http://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/nl-generators.html yesterday for the 5kw model (superceeds the 4.5kw at about £100 more) which was £3651 + the sound enclosure at £682 + VAT = £5091 inc VAT

 

Perhaps they'd do a discount at a boat show?

 

Anyway, although it's a grand more than the Paguro it's a 1500 rpm generator rather than 3000 rpm.

 

One of the problems in installing it is deciding how to cool it. Personally I'd go for keel cooled rather than raw water cooled because I think a closed loop system has got to be less maintainence - cleaning of filters, mud boxes, etc. I'd like to tap into my existing skin tank but the guy from Energy Solutions reckons this introduces problems because one of the engines would be higher than the other and that would necessitate it having the pressure cap/header tank and the possibility of air locks in the system.

 

I wasn't quite sure why one couldn't just have a header tank at a higher level than both engines, but he recommended a dedicated skin tank for the generator, which I could do along the other side of the swim.

 

David, how are you cooling your Mastervolt?

Edited March 20, 2007 by blackrose

[andywatson]

Looking to get a bigger genny next month 5KVA ish, deisel and quiet as poss. been looking at the kipor KDA6700T off ebay. anyone got them? any good? dont mind spending a bit more if its worth it (better quality etc) anyone recommend anything?

 

The Generator on my boat is made by G&M of Ipswich. They don't seem to be very common on narrowboats but they seem to be a large company and supply the miltary, hospitals and industry.

I don't know what they cost as it was on the boat when I bought it.

 

It's about 10KVA and cocooned / shock mounted so you can hardly hear it.

I have a remote start in the galley.

 

The engine is a Lister LPW3 which is a common boat engine. Mine is cooled through a skin tank.

 

If you want more info PM me.

[Lesd]

Hi Les, I had a quote from Energy Solutions http://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/nl-generators.html yesterday for the 5kw model (superceeds the 4.5kw at about £100 more) which was £3651 + the sound enclosure at £682 + VAT = £5091 inc VAT

 

Perhaps they'd do a discount at a boat show?

 

Anyway, although it's a grand more than the Paguro it's a 1500 rpm generator rather than 3000 rpm.

 

One of the problems in installing it is deciding how to cool it. Personally I'd go for keel cooled rather than raw water cooled because I think a closed loop system has got to be less maintainence - cleaning of filters, mud boxes, etc. I'd like to tap into my existing skin tank but the guy from Energy Solutions reckons this introduces problems because one of the engines would be higher than the other and that would necessitate it having the pressure cap/header tank and the possibility of air locks in the system.

 

I wasn't quite sure why one couldn't just have a header tank at a higher level than both engines, but he recommended a dedicated skin tank for the generator, which I could do along the other side of the swim.

 

David, how are you cooling your Mastervolt?

 

Hi Mike,

This looks a very well made unit but I'm staggered at the price of these things. At £5K+ its probably going to cost more than most new mid range propulsion engines fitted into modern NB's ! Surely a high powered inverter fed by a large domestic 12v battery bank which is charged from the existing propulsion engine has to be a better/cheaper bet ??????

Rgds

Les

[blackrose]

Hi Mike,

This looks a very well made unit but I'm staggered at the price of these things. At £5K+ its probably going to cost more than most new mid range propulsion engines fitted into modern NB's ! Surely a high powered inverter fed by a large domestic 12v battery bank which is charged from the existing propulsion engine has to be a better/cheaper bet ??????

Rgds

Les

 

Yes, you're right it ends up costing as much as a new diesel engine - but then that's exactly what it is, with AC power generation.

 

A high powered inverter can run high consumption AC appliances for a while but it ultimately relies on how much power you can generate & then store in your battery bank, so it's a different kettle of johnnies. My engine is much noisier than a quiet generator and I'd prefer to keep engine hours to a minimum and have a dedicated unit for AC production. The other option is the AC alternator - travel power thing, which I think costs about £2K. I don't know much about them apart from that you have to run your engine.

 

All of these options and others like solar panels, wind generators, etc, represent significant investments which are probably only justified if you're living aboard without a shoreline. I'm just contemplating it in case I ever leave my mooring - which would save me nearly £4K/year, so it wouldn't take that long to pay for itself (not that the shoreline is the only thing I pay mooring fees for). Anyway, in the meantime I'll make do with my little Honda suitcase generator and my alternators when I'm away.

Edited March 20, 2007 by blackrose

[Lesd]

Yes, you're right it ends up costing as much as a new diesel engine - but then that's exactly what it is, with AC power generation.

 

A high powered inverter can run high consumption AC appliances for a while but ultimately relies on how much power you can generate & then store in your battery bank, so it's a different kettle of johnnies. My engine is much noisier than a quiet generator and I'd prefer to keep engine hours to a minimum and have a dedicated unit for AC production. The other option is the AC alternator - travel power thing, which I think costs about £2K. I don't know much about them apart from that you have to run your engine.

 

All of these options and others like solar panels, wind generators, etc, represent significant investments which are probably only justified if you're living aboard without a shoreline. I'm just contemplating it in case I ever leave my mooring - which would save me nearly £4K/year, so it wouldn't take that long to pay for itself (not that the shoreline is the only thing I pay mooring fees for). Anyway, in the meantime I'll make do with my little Honda suitcase generator and my alternators when I'm away.

 

I agree on most of that Mike but in terms of cost effectiveness'' I like the Sterling approach to this (the theory at least); With their Alterntor to Battery device plus their 3K pure sine inverter you can take the combined outputs from your propulsion engine alternators and run them via the batts and inverter to give you an AC of upto 3Kw (just like the travel power or genny). When drawing 3Kw you will be pulling stored power from the domestic batteries but when you drop down to lower power usage you'll be charging batteries at the same time (the cut off from using to storing power will depend of alternator sizes and which size of ABC you have, they go upto 210A). The system works pretty much as well as a genny or the travel power options (in my view) but is miles cheaper as you already have the propulsion engine and (probably) the inverter.

Rgds

Les

[blackrose]

The system works pretty much as well as a genny or the travel power options (in my view) but is miles cheaper

 

Yes, apart from the fact that you have to run a noisy boat engine.

 

I had a neighbour once who apologised to me for running his inboard generator quite late the previous night because he'd fallen asleep while watching TV. I was in, but it was so quiet I hardly even noticed. Personally I think that's something worth paying for. I want to use my engine to move the boat, not as my primary means of power generation.

 

The other cost to factor in is fuel and the cost of batteries which I think would have to be replaced more frequently the more they are discharged/charged. Small diesel generators typically use about 1/3 litre of fuel/kw/hr. My engine uses 3.2 litres/hour at 1400rpm. (I don't have figures for lower rpm.)

Edited March 21, 2007 by blackrose

[anhar]

If the main reason for a built in diesel generator is because it makes less noise than running the engine at moorings for creating mains power, the answer, is to ensure the engine is as quiet as possible. There are various ways to achieve this such as a very good "hospital" silencer, good soundproofing and so on. I went on the Rod Fox helmsman's course recently and his boat Enigma is ultra quiet. It surprised me, so much so that when idling I genuinely didn't realise at first that the engine was running at all and at one stage I went to start it when it was already going! He achieved this on his Nanni diesel by a huge hospital silencer, it really was a mother, the size almost of an old fashioned metal dustbin, and substantial soundproofing under the engine bay covers.

 

Then, the solution to mains power by having a high power pure sine wave inverter off the batteries, recharging whilst moored from the engine, or of course whilst cruising, will be a fraction of the cost of that of a built in generator, even with the larger battery bank required, and also less hassle to run because the maintenance regime of a generator will be avoided. Noise won't be a problem whilst moored for an engine soundproofed as well as above, in fact it may well be quieter or no more noisy than a built in diesel generator. So I tend to agree with Les here. Much easier to make these decisions on a new build of course.

 

Even if a diesel generator uses less fuel than the boat's engine, given the high cost of a good built in and well soundproofed generator plus its continuing maintenance I doubt that can be an acceptable trade off. Some think that running a boat engine at low speed for long periods whilst moored just for battery charging will somehow damage it in the long run but in practice is that really true over the length of time that one is likely to own the boat? I doubt it somehow and in the unlikely event the bores become glazed or whatever the fear is, it is still very likely to be cheaper to have that fixed than the costs of buying, installing and maintaining the generator over time.

 

I think the generator solution to onboard mains power probably belongs to a slightly earlier age before smart pure sine wave inverter/chargers of very high output wattage became available. But since the latter now exist, enabling auto balancing of the output between consumption and charging, the inverter solution appears much more practical to me, being far cheaper and less work to maintain, with not even a noise problem when combined with a highly soundproofed engine.

 

As far as brands go, personally I'm not convinced from what I've heard on this forum of the quality of Sterling, I'm going with Victron or would have considered Mastervolt but only those two.

 

regards

Steve

Edited March 21, 2007 by anhar

[Lesd]

Agree regarding the noise when marina bound, but is it such a problem when out in 'no shore line areas' ? Im also assuming my engine will be reasonably quiet (hospital silencer and lined engine hole) but I'll have to let you know in the autumn !!

 

The extra battery wear and deisel costs are fair points too. I have no firm data regarding battery ageing but regarding fuel consumption my choice is a Shire 65 and Barrus tell me the consumption is virtually identical at 1000 upto 1400 rpm (max alternator output is achieved 1400 rpm), this range consuming approx 153g/KWhr.

 

Quote from Barrus R+D

 

2. Max Alt Output 1400 rpm (high gearing) discharged batteries. Neutral no load. 160 + 50 amps x 14 volts = 2.940w

gearbox drag and mechanical losses = 2000w

Total Power Output = 5kw

5 @ 1400 rpm @ 153g/kWhr = 0.765 kg/fuel per hour

x specific gravity 0.82 = Approx 0.63 Litres per Hour

 

 

double the consumption of your stand alone genny solution but still pretty frugal ???

 

Your 3.2Lt / hour figure seems high or is it perhaps a cruising figure not a no load figure ??? Having said that Barus are quoting 4mph crusing consumption at approx 1.65 ltrs/hour on the Shire 65.

 

As always, a lot of this is down to personal preference and circumstnce but its an interesting debate !!

 

Cheers

Les

[Ernie]

Personally, I think the solution to mains power depends very much on how the boat is used. Someone living on board and continuously cruising will have different needs to someone using the boat for weekends/holidays or someone living in a marina with shore power available.

 

For me, the BIG advantage of having a separate generator is in having a ‘backup supply’

 

Over the last year, I have had two alternator brackets break and one alternator fail completely (the boat is 5 years old, has had little use before I bought her and has less than 900 hours on the engine). This has been more of an inconvenience rather than a big problem. Had I been living aboard, the failures would have been much more of a headache.

 

I will be living on board and continuously cruising as from mid May this year and will have much more peace of mind knowing that I have a second source of mains power (my stand alone diesel generator) should I have more engine/alternator problems.

[anhar]

That's right Les. Taking diesel at say 90p/l if it rises to road levels, then your engine uses about 30p more fuel per hour than Mike's generator. Run it every single day for say four hours whilst moored, which is way over what anyone is likely to do, and over a year that's still only 365 x 30p = £109 additional cost of engine fuel over generator fuel. Which of course is no trade off worth speaking about for the £5,000 Mike talked of as the costs of buying and installing the generator, plus he needs to maintain it as well, against the cost of an inverter arrangement.

 

On a purely cost basis, the generator solution makes no sense to me. It is substantially more expensive to buy and run than the modern inverter set up. On a noise basis, I doubt it's much quieter than a well soundproofed engine. On a hassle basis, the generator is more to maintain, more to go wrong.

 

So what advantages are we left with for the generator? One is that it provides a secondary source of electricity should the engine/alternator fail, as Ernie says, which is something I guess. Expensive way to do that though. Can't see much else.

 

Steve

Edited March 21, 2007 by anhar

[blackrose]

That's right Les. Taking diesel at say 90p/l if it rises to road levels, then your engine uses about 30p more fuel per hour than Mike's generator. Run it every single day for say four hours whilst moored, which is way over what anyone is likely to do, and over a year that's still only 365 x 30p = £109 additional cost of engine fuel over generator fuel. Which of course is no trade off worth speaking about for the £5,000 Mike talked of as the costs of buying and installing the generator, plus he needs to maintain it as well, against the cost of an inverter arrangement.

 

On a purely cost basis, the generator solution makes no sense to me. It is substantially more expensive to buy and run than the modern inverter set up. On a noise basis, I doubt it's much quieter than a well soundproofed engine. On a hassle basis, the generator is more to maintain, more to go wrong.

 

So what advantages are we left with for the generator? One is that it provides a secondary source of electricity should the engine/alternator fail, as Ernie says, which is something I guess. Expensive way to do that though. Can't see much else.

 

Steve

 

Yes, it's more expensive to buy but how is it more expensive to run? I thought you'd already calculated it was cheaper in fuel consumption?

 

If we take the cost of a hospital silencer and soundproofing of my large engine bay, plus a good quality pure sine wave 3.5kw inverter, extra batteries required (I currently only have 3 x 135 a/h), extra fuel and replacement batteries, I know the generator will still be more expensive but the margin is narrowing. Also, I don't really accept the argument of extra hasle & maintainence of the generator - I could say the same thing about running a boat engine, since by the same token clocking up all those engine hours charging batteries would also entail maintainence & hassle. You have to run one engine to produce electricity (either the boat engine or the generator) and either way one is just as likely to go wrong as the other. Then of course, if it's your boat engine you won't be able to move.

 

I could invest in soundproofing my engine bay and installing a hospital silencer which would probably benefit my neighbours, but that wouldn't cut out the vibration within my boat. My Isuzu 55 is on flexible engine mounts but this 4 cylinder engine has been designed primarily for propulsion and not with minimal vibration in mind like a properly balanced 3 cylinder generator engine.

 

Anyway, at the end of the day it all comes down to personal choice. I look at it this way: Since my boat is my home I may be able to justify the outlay on one-off items such as this. I haven't made a decision on this yet and it's good to hear the arguments for & against. Frugal is my middle name but sometimes I think we boat owners tend to get a bit religious about not spending money. After all, nobody bats an eyelid when someone says they paid 25 grand for a loft extension in their house or 5 grand on re-decoration & new curtains.

Edited March 21, 2007 by blackrose

[elessina]

We have a travelpower generator. As said, great but you have to run the engine.

 

We have a hospital type silencer. Engine noise is very low, a boat behind or in front would likely not hear it, only if alongside could it be heard, then not loud. But it is louder than a super silenced cocooned generator.

 

We have very large battery bank and Victron Multiplus inverter. But as said battery life is limited, and will certainly be shortened if continuously used.

 

For the amount of times we are off shore power and not cruising the TravelPower is fine and meets our needs.

 

As said, the solution to mains power depends very much on how the boat is used, but if we had to winter on board without shore power I would say the travelpower is not sufficient. A standalone built in generator (preferably 1500rpm) is, I am sure the only real solution if wanting a good 240v supply when living on board without shore power…. By good 240v supply I mean sufficient for washing machine, hair dryer, iron, TV etc.

 

Ian

Elessina

[Ernie]

but if we had to winter on board without shore power I would say the travelpower is not sufficient. A standalone built in generator (preferably 1500rpm) is, I am sure the only real solution if wanting a good 240v supply when living on board without shore power…. By good 240v supply I mean sufficient for washing machine, hair dryer, iron, TV etc.

 

Ian

Elessina

Very much agree. I would have liked to have gone down this route but it would have been too difficult to 'build in' on my boat. Next best thing was a stand alone silent diesel generator (it's just not very silent though!!!).

[elessina]

When we purchased our sailaway 3 years ago we decided to spend £2,000 on the Electrolux Travelpower generator, instead of £5,000 on a stand alone Generator. I think the TravelPower will meet our current needs, when we have 300+ hours on our engine (because of bore glazing, many recommend not running engine just for generation until it is run in eg. 300hrs, we have 150hrs to date). But I do feel even then, we will be a little restricted as we need 240v shorepower during the winter (liveaboard).

 

In hindsight I wish we had gone for a standalone generator, as it gives more flexibility and probably the only option that meets 'all' needs. That said, even on our barge, finding space in the engine room is a problem, especially as we have a large battery bank.

 

Mike,

 

I have heard many very good reports from owners with Northern Lights generators. Had we gone down this route it almost certainly would have been a Northern Lights generator. Regarding size, maybe worth going for one that is a little larger than you think you need…. One that has sufficient output to run your battery charger (1.5Kw?) and washing machine (2.5Kw) at the same time….. This because the chances are you will want to run both together, and want to run it for a minimum time, say one hour. If you were to get a 3Kw generator it would not run the washing machine and charge up your batteries together, so you might therefore have to run it for 2 hours, for example.

 

Ian

[blackrose]

Mike,

 

I have heard many very good reports from owners with Northern Lights generators. Had we gone down this route it almost certainly would have been a Northern Lights generator. Regarding size, maybe worth going for one that is a little larger than you think you need…. One that has sufficient output to run your battery charger (1.5Kw?) and washing machine (2.5Kw) at the same time….. This because the chances are you will want to run both together, and want to run it for a minimum time, say one hour. If you were to get a 3Kw generator it would not run the washing machine and charge up your batteries together, so you might therefore have to run it for 2 hours, for example.

 

Ian

 

Thanks Ian,

 

Tha smallest in the Northern Lights 1500rpm range is 4.5kw but it's being upgraded to a 5kw which costs about £100 more. I thinks this should be adequate for my purposes.

 

Mike

[Rayxt]

I looked into washing machines, trying to find the most energy efficient model. Apart from when the machine electrically heats the water (which is optional) the only power drain is the motor turning the drum. This seems to be about 650W. A lot less than a peak of 2.5KW needed to heat the water and keep it hot.

 

Many units have cold and hot water inlets. Putting in hot water from your calorifer (unless that is electrically heated) can cut a washing machines power requirements by up to 75%. Soaking a wash takes no power at all. You can always soak then use the rinse cycle (4 rinses) with the 1st rinse to wash (you add hot water by hand) with 3 rinses not 4.

 

Looking at the wider picture of diesel & electric power was a stern lesson. There a no free lunches. And you can waste a lot of money on them.

 

Misapplied Travel Power units may be one.

 

The Electrolux TRAVEL POWER generators are just that. Designed to run when you are travelling, and by definition the boat's diesel engine is running for a normal cruising speed.

 

The following table I got from Beta Marine is helpful to understand the pulley design and performance at different generator speeds.

 

Generator RPM 3.5KVA 7 KVA

 

3000 1000 watts 3200 watts

 

3600 1800 watts 5100 watts

 

5500 3500 watts 7000 watts

 

In short, IF your Travel Power generator has the wrong pulley size you will never be charging anywhere near the unit's full capacity, when you are out cruising. And trying to get either unit to deliver even 50% of it's power output while moored will have your engine roaring along - at cruising revs, which is hardly silent running!

 

In my opinion the most cost effective setup would be to combine the 3.5KVA Electrolux (or a 24v 170AHr) generator with a good 3-6KVA inverter / charger and 6 (or 12) x 2v 800 Amp/Hr lead acid traction batteries (60Kg per 2v cell) and you can charge and deep discharge these powerhouses more times than you will ever do in your lifetime on the canals. And as for longievity, don't worry - they will outlast you, and possibly your beneficiaries' future interest in the boat!

 

Quality gel batteries will also do the trick. But they cost more per Ampere hour of storage, although you can stow then anywhere in any position if space is tight.

 

Couple this with a landline supply (when you have it) and a small efficient silenced generator as backup, and a wind generator, and hopefully you're squeezing the maximum KW/Hr out of every drop of diesel and the capital cost to generate and store it.

 

The idea being you put money into the batteries, so they always have the 'reserve' to meet you occasional need of peak power, (through the inverter) rather than overspec on generator capacity, which for 99% of the time is never used at peak power. And when you do have it running the batteries store the energy efficiently.

 

At least I would like to believe that's the case!

 

Ray

Edited July 16, 2007 by Rayxt