BMC 1.5 Crankshaft Bolt

[TNLI]

16 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/mgb-c-v8

Great, I've been looking at tractor companies, but they are to easy to find and that means anyone rebuilding a BMC that has been looking at ASAP, Calcutt or  Boulters that all have a sold out status for the tensioner, also seems to be in the same sold out club. 

 

One question though, what do you type in the search engine or car type list to find BMC 1.5D parts ??

[TNLI]

On 04/03/2022 at 13:06, Tony Brooks said:

As Tracy said, you forgot the front and back plate.

 

Also the flywheel and flywheel housing.

 

Most engineers would expect the engine to by upside down before you try to remove the crank so you would lift it out, not drop it.

 

On 21/03/2022 at 15:23, Tony Brooks said:

Unless you supply a photo I and I doubt anyone else can advise about the tool, but I THINK what you call slots has nothing to do with tightening or loosening. I THINK all you need is a standard socket.

 

If the Injection pump skew gears are worn it is  a lot easier to replace the camshaft and pump drive with the engine upside down and the sump off.

 

Which double toothed sprocket? The can sprocket or the crankshaft sprocket? If one is worn you can bet the other is as well. What is the key like that drives the crank sprocket?

AH, although this engine has had a new reconditioned injection pump, I've no idea if the chap or chaps fitting it, inspected the skew gears. 

So question, can the skew gears be inspected correctly with the engine upside down and the injection pump in place, or must it be removed ??

  Also what do you call the part or parts that are required if those gears are out of limits in wear terms, is it just an injection pump skew gear or are there a pair, so gears, and do they have a special lock tab ??

 

I showed the Gold anodised main bearings bolt to my father who, due to his incredible career as an engineer with the Royal Navy, (Minelayer HMS Manxman, the fastest ship in the Med or Atlantic fleet at 37 kts), Admiralty design office, (Nuke submarine pumps), UKAERA (Fusion reactor pumps and parts), is always correct, what he would call it, and he said, it's a slotted hexagonal head machine screw able bolt!

[Tony Brooks]

4 hours ago, TNLI said:

AH, although this engine has had a new reconditioned injection pump, I've no idea if the chap or chaps fitting it, inspected the skew gears. 

So question, can the skew gears be inspected correctly with the engine upside down and the injection pump in place, or must it be removed ??

  Also what do you call the part or parts that are required if those gears are out of limits in wear terms, is it just an injection pump skew gear or are there a pair, so gears, and do they have a special lock tab ??

 

Why don't you buy a proper parts list and manual? BMC parts list have exploded views that are very helpful in seeing what you are dealing with.

 

The skew gears have nothing to do with the injector pump apart from they provide the drive. You can take the pump off and put it back without touching the gears.

 

One is machined onto the camshaft and  think it also drives the oil pump. Saying the oil pump is outside tolerance without giving the supporting data might indicate they found wear in the drive gear which is part of the pump shaft. If they did the there is every chance the camshaft gear is worn and in turn the pump drive gear. In general terms if one part of a gear train is worn then the rest are likely to be as well.

 

Just like the oil pump drive gear is part of it's drive shaft so the injection pump drive gear is part of the shaft that drives the injection pump. I have Rather suspect the pump drive shaft is forged, then the skew gear machined and finally the important parts are hardened.

 

So, in the depths of the engine, above and to one side of the crankshaft is the camshaft. With the sump off you can visually inspect the skew gears but you would have to turn the camshaft so you can  see all parts of all three gears. With the sump on to view the gears you would have to take the injection pump off, the pump mounting block off the engine and then draw the pump drive shaft. That will allow a close inspection of the gear on the drive shaft but you will need a torch and squinting down a hole in the block to view the gear on the camshaft.

 

As all the gears are machined into their respective shafts there are no fixings or lock tabs. I am not 100% sure about the oil pump drive gear because of the age since I have had one out. It might be a press fit on the shaft with a key. It may of may not be retained by a cross pin. Careful inspection if the pump should show how it is fitted.

[Tracy D'arth]

Have you studied the drawings in the manual?

The skew gear is a gear shaft driving the pump and runs on the camshaft so if there is wear you may need both.

[TNLI]

36 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Have you studied the drawings in the manual?

The skew gear is a gear shaft driving the pump and runs on the camshaft so if there is wear you may need both.

Thanks to Tracy and Tony, and I lent BMC and PRM manuals to the crank engineering company because they did not have them. I do not have an actual BMC/Leyland parts list with the associated numbers, or the document that can explain or list which exact model of 1500D I have from the engine block number, so I don't know for sure if I have an early or late model, and do you to know that for a few, (Very few), parts. 

 

The engineer that is responsible for removing and assembling the block is a real serious professional, and he has not said anything about the skew gear being out of limits, and he is fully aware that I do not want the engine returned without any part left that might cause trouble in terms of needing an engine hoist to lift up from the beds. 

 

Oddly enough if one of the main block items like the skew gear or sprockets is worn out of limits, it will almost certainly show up as a high Iron content in a used oil analysis. For example a typical Iron figure for a small non turbo diesel would be 20ppm for an interval of 200 hours (Iron tracks engine hours). So the important figure for Fe is 0.1 per hour. Iron is a general wear rate indicator so it is not possible to identify the part involved unless you have a knowledge of the mostly trace elements in the special steel type used for gears, engine liners, rings and shafts in particular.

  It's often possible to find out which elements are of interest from a simple Google search. Alas there are quite a number of different metallic elements involved, but a high Iron figure (More than double the normal use average for the class of engine), that does not show a an associated big increase in Chromium, Copper, Aluminium, or other marker element, is almost always caused by a gear or chain wear rate issue. The only exception is a large developing crack someplace.

 

So anyone know where I can find the engine number decode, or Leland/BMC parts diagram, BUT the list of parts numbers in particular ??

 

[TNLI]

On 22/03/2022 at 08:47, Tracy D'arth said:

https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/mgb-c-v8

Very interesting site, and I did call them, BUT without the Leyland/BMC part numbers they will not accept the order, and although their web site is good for classic cars, it's hopeless without knowing the part numbers. 

 

I might have found the BMC 1.5D engine number codes, but it would be good if some expert could confirm that the marine version is similar to the Austin A 40 Cambridge, (Not sure of the last part.

MG_Engine_numbers.pdf

Edited March 23, 2022 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, TNLI said:

Very interesting site, and I did call them, BUT without the Leyland/BMC part numbers they will not accept the order, and although their web site is good for classic cars, it's hopeless without knowing the part numbers. 

 

I might have found the BMC 1.5D engine number codes, but it would be good if some expert could confirm that the marine version is similar to the Austin A 40 Cambridge, (Not sure of the last part.

MG_Engine_numbers.pdf 19.58 kB · 1 download

 

To the best of my knowledge the only Cambridge that was available with the 1.5 diesel was the  A60, but also in the J4 and I think EA van but the EA engine was inclined.

[TNLI]

Thanks Tony, so it was an Austin A 60 Cambridge that had the 1.5D, do you mean Austin J4 ??

 

Finally located a company in the UK that have the timing chain tensioner in stock, although it's the last one they have, and they also have all of the lock tabs, so I will look at their list and hopefully make a last order of parts tomorrow. Fingers crossed I might have my old BMC back by the end of the week, although I will have to put some of the parts like the starter motor back onto the engine, as they were removed to allow the engine to fit into the working frame, so the engine can be inverted. 

I've also got to do some minor work on the gearbox, as the filler hex head was rather badly damaged due to the use of the wrong size sockets or spanners over the last 60 years odd. I had to file it down to allow the use of a spanner to get it open, but I'm not keen on bodge jobs so will be looking for that part, also the filter unit seemed to be missing, so that's another part I will be looking for.

Edited March 23, 2022 by TNLI

[Tracy D'arth]

What is the gearbox?  If its an old PRM/Newage  100 with a filter on top they no longer need the filter, PRM have a bypass kit to replace the filter.

https://www.prm-newage.com/media/File/100 & 175 & 250 man.pdf

[TNLI]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

What is the gearbox?  If its an old PRM/Newage  100 with a filter on top they no longer need the filter, PRM have a bypass kit to replace the filter.

https://www.prm-newage.com/media/File/100 & 175 & 250 man.pdf

Thanks I've got that downloaded already (It is a PRM 100), BUT although the Dipstick filler part no: MT 471 (ASAP have that part) that I need is visible in the diagram, and it mentions a bypass filter in the text, it does not appear in the diagram or parts list. So I will see what this filter kit is, because the vented cap that might have covered over a filter might be involved with that kit. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by TNLI

[TNLI]

Ooops, got timed out before posting.

 

It would be good if this forum had at the start or introduction section a copy or links to the various user and full service manuals, along with the BMC PARTS CATALOGUE with all the numbers, and it also helps new forum members if the introduction lists the main parts suppliers, which in the case of the BMC 1500D is a fairly long list.

 

Rant over, if I was not interested in having the bottom job done by the professionals, I would try and rebuild the oil pump if I could find the parts:

BMC(MOWOG) Oil Pump Driven Gear,part number : AAA2494 - MG,Austin,Morris,Riley?? | eBay

Might be no good, but impossible to tell without the BMC parts catalogue.

[Tony Brooks]

I am  no longer sure but I thought the 1.5s oil pump was a bi-rotor one and if so those gears are no good. Even if it is a gear type pump new gears will not answer if the body or spindles are worn. No one can tell if they are without the wear without the measurements.

[TNLI]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am  no longer sure but I thought the 1.5s oil pump was a bi-rotor one and if so those gears are no good. Even if it is a gear type pump new gears will not answer if the body or spindles are worn. No one can tell if they are without the wear without the measurements.

Thanks Tony, and that's interesting as the only oil pumps I have inspected were much easier in terms of access to the gears. So if anyone has a low oil pressure issue issue or are faced with a real good rebuild company that do not refit 60 year old parts, they will just have to buy a new one. If anyone is looking for a cheap new oil pump for a BMC 1.8, it might be worth looking at this one:

CLASSIC BMC B SERIES OIL PUMP.... MGB ETC | eBay

 

Not sure if this is a real kosher pump or not, as the outlet pipe does not look polished, and I could not find the Hindu squiggly letters that end in 316 on the side, although that mark is not easy to read.

 

PS: WTF (Where The Fork), do I buy, download or copy a BMC part numbers list, as the engineer did say he wants me to send a list of the numbers. I've got most of them as they are on the invoices from ASAP and Calcutt, but not the ones for the lock tabs. 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, TNLI said:

PS: WTF (Where The Fork), do I buy, download or copy a BMC part numbers list, as the engineer did say he wants me to send a list of the numbers. I've got most of them as they are on the invoices from ASAP and Calcutt, but not the ones for the lock tabs. 

 

 

It will take some looking for, they went over to microfiche in the late 60s/early 70s. So you will be looking for people and sites that deal with auto-jumble and such like.

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Thanks Tony, and that's interesting as the only oil pumps I have inspected were much easier in terms of access to the gears. So if anyone has a low oil pressure issue issue or are faced with a real good rebuild company that do not refit 60 year old parts, they will just have to buy a new one. If anyone is looking for a cheap new oil pump for a BMC 1.8, it might be worth looking at this one:

CLASSIC BMC B SERIES OIL PUMP.... MGB ETC | eBay

 

That pump looks suspiciously like a bi-rotor one to me so those gears you linked to earlier won't fit.

 

I can't be 100% sure but I think it will fit a 1.5 as well. I can't remember if the 1.5 feeds the gallery by an feed pipe or via a drilling in the pump housing. The one you link to seems to use a drilling with the alternative outlet for a pipe being blanked and un-threaded.

[TNLI]

Thanks Tony for the last 2 posts, I'm not going to buy that pump even if it looks just like the BMC 1.5 one, cos the seller has listed it as no returns accepted, and I just don't buy from sellers who refuse to accept returns. He did say that he purchased it for a BMC 1.8, and ASAP list the oil pump for a 1.8 only, which means it will not fit a 1.5, otherwise they would have said 1.5 and 1.8. The other issue is that when I document the engine rebuild, which in the case of the bottom job requires that I provide an A4 invoice for all of the parts I have supplied, so if I purchase from a Fleabay seller who might be selling a damaged pump, (Difficult to see inside), or a copy of the real thing, the engineering company will fit it if I asked them, BUT they will then refuse to offer a warranty or document the rebuild, which is required for an engine survey if that is requested by a new potential lifeboat owner, not that I'm going to sell my boat until I'm too far gone to be able to get onboard whilst beached, or in a marina.

 

I have been looking for the BMC parts list, but have not had any luck, partly due to the large number of non marine BMC engines confusing the issue. I'm sure ASAP, Calcutt, Boulters and even the vintage Vintage Tractor Spare Parts company have a copy, so it's just a matter of raiding their office and copying it!

[Tony Brooks]

I expect Calcutt will have it as a computer file made from the microfiche, as will some others I expect.l

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I expect Calcutt will have it as a computer file made from the microfiche, as will some others I expect.l

Good luck getting a copy off Roger!

[Tony Brooks]

42 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Good luck getting a copy off Roger!

I doubt anyone will make a copy for him. I think it will need effort to run down an old paper copy.

[TNLI]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I doubt anyone will make a copy for him. I think it will need effort to run down an old paper copy.

Thanks Tony and can you guess at the title of such a parts document, as it might have Leyland or a car type rather than BMC 1.5 etc ??

 

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by TNLI

[Jim H]

Hi there folks. Sorry to crash into your discussion but since yours is the most recent activity regarding anything to do with BMC 1.5 engines on the forum, I thought I'd reach out for some advice. I'm based in Panama having sailed here many years ago with a small boat fitted with a marinised BMC 1.5 diesel. (Thornycroft) I'm visiting the UK in the next few weeks and decided to pull the engine and do a bit of a strip down in case there were any parts needed I could bring back. Sadly I've discovered a bit of a disaster. Last head job the gasket was installed upside down with the result that the rocker shaft and rockers are completely shot. Beyond replacing bushes shot. I used to get parts from AMC but it seems like they no longer exist. I know it's an extremely old engine now but have you any thoughts about where I could try for new or used parts. Again, sorry for crashing your thread but I'm getting desperate and a bit short of time. Thanks. 

[TNLI]

4 hours ago, Jim H said:

Hi there folks. Sorry to crash into your discussion but since yours is the most recent activity regarding anything to do with BMC 1.5 engines on the forum, I thought I'd reach out for some advice. I'm based in Panama having sailed here many years ago with a small boat fitted with a marinised BMC 1.5 diesel. (Thornycroft) I'm visiting the UK in the next few weeks and decided to pull the engine and do a bit of a strip down in case there were any parts needed I could bring back. Sadly I've discovered a bit of a disaster. Last head job the gasket was installed upside down with the result that the rocker shaft and rockers are completely shot. Beyond replacing bushes shot. I used to get parts from AMC but it seems like they no longer exist. I know it's an extremely old engine now but have you any thoughts about where I could try for new or used parts. Again, sorry for crashing your thread but I'm getting desperate and a bit short of time. Thanks. 

Hi Jim,

  Welcome to the wonderful world of BMC classic engines. I had the misfortune of spending 3 weeks in Panama aboard my rusty 34ft Van Der Stadt homebrewed sloop about 15 years ago. Spent 2 weeks bouncing around in Colons main anchorage because of a queue of Westbound yachts and ships, before transiting the ditch in 14 hours. The Balboa yacht club had burnt down a week before I survived the canal trip, so I only stayed on a mooring for a few days before a very pleasant but rather slow trip non stop to Nuka Hiva that took 46 days, (I don't like motoring).  Right, so the main companies that are good to deal with are as follows in rough order of importance:

 

ASAP SUPPLIES  BMC Leyland Engine Spare Parts | ASAP Supplies (asap-supplies.com)

 

CALCUTT BOATS  BMC Engine Spares - Calcutt Boats Ltd (calcuttboatsshop.com)

 

BOULTERS CHANDLERY  Boulters Chandlery - Chandlery Store & Marine Engine Products (boulters-chandlery.co.uk)

 

TRACTOR SPARE PARTS  Leyland 1500D Cylinder Head : Tractor Spare Parts, Nuffield, Leyland & Marshall tractor spare part specialists

 

After that there are a lot of other small companies that stock some, but never all of the BMC 1.5 (1500D) Thornycroft parts and unlike the 4 companies above, they can be difficult to deal with if you don't have the exact description of the parts and preferably the part number. A very few parts like the crank itself, or flywheel lock tabs,  required that you know if your block is an early or late model one, (BMC 1.5MK1 or2). That can be figured out if you know your engine block number and the decode list is attached. Fleabay and Amazinzone are both worth checking for parts, and finally if you do visit one of the main BMC parts companies, wait until the office looks empty, jump the counter and then steal their parts catalogue, as they are like rocking horse manure! If you succeed, but fail to copy and scan it to this forum, I will go on the nearest Moody 36 (I presume) forum and slag off about your usefulness to the BMC community, and then hope one of your long docking lines snaps just as the monster cruise ship just ahead of you in the first of the six locks, guns their main engine go levers cos they are in a rush!

bmc1500L-diesel-workshop-manual.pdf MG_Engine_numbers (1).pdf

[Tony Brooks]

5 hours ago, Jim H said:

Hi there folks. Sorry to crash into your discussion but since yours is the most recent activity regarding anything to do with BMC 1.5 engines on the forum, I thought I'd reach out for some advice. I'm based in Panama having sailed here many years ago with a small boat fitted with a marinised BMC 1.5 diesel. (Thornycroft) I'm visiting the UK in the next few weeks and decided to pull the engine and do a bit of a strip down in case there were any parts needed I could bring back. Sadly I've discovered a bit of a disaster. Last head job the gasket was installed upside down with the result that the rocker shaft and rockers are completely shot. Beyond replacing bushes shot. I used to get parts from AMC but it seems like they no longer exist. I know it's an extremely old engine now but have you any thoughts about where I could try for new or used parts. Again, sorry for crashing your thread but I'm getting desperate and a bit short of time. Thanks. 

 

I would suggest that Calcutt Boats would be your best bet because they tend to have a stock of old engines so if you accept non-service parts are increasingly difficult to source they may well be able to supply you with a second hand but serviceable rocker gear. There is a very good chance that you will find the BMC B series petrol engine  rocker gear is the same as yours so that is where the MGB, among other cars, come into your search.

 

It might be time to start thinking about replacing the engine. There are ex lifeboat Bukhs with very low hours available.

[Tony Brooks]

I have an idea that Westerbeke marinised the BMC 1.5 at one time and if so that may give a source for parts on your side of the Atlantic.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[Tracy D'arth]

6 hours ago, Jim H said:

Hi there folks. Sorry to crash into your discussion but since yours is the most recent activity regarding anything to do with BMC 1.5 engines on the forum, I thought I'd reach out for some advice. I'm based in Panama having sailed here many years ago with a small boat fitted with a marinised BMC 1.5 diesel. (Thornycroft) I'm visiting the UK in the next few weeks and decided to pull the engine and do a bit of a strip down in case there were any parts needed I could bring back. Sadly I've discovered a bit of a disaster. Last head job the gasket was installed upside down with the result that the rocker shaft and rockers are completely shot. Beyond replacing bushes shot. I used to get parts from AMC but it seems like they no longer exist. I know it's an extremely old engine now but have you any thoughts about where I could try for new or used parts. Again, sorry for crashing your thread but I'm getting desperate and a bit short of time. Thanks. 

"B" series BMC/Leyland rocker gear is all similar, So 1.8 Diesel (Sherpa), 1.8 petrol MGB, Austin Morris A60 Cambridge even I think Marina 1.8 petrol will do for parts.

There are 1.5D engines on ebay now, and generally there are some for sale at parts prices.