White diesel on sale from January 1st

[Ricardo]

The marina where I moor has said that they will only be selling white diesel from January 1st. They say they can't sell red after that date. They also say that because they don't hold a large stock they have to buy it in at more than the supermarket sells it for so they'll be charging over £1 a litre.

 

Is this the official line or are they, or their supplier, jumping the gun?

 

Ric.

[Yoda]

The marina where I moor has said that they will only be selling white diesel from January 1st. They say they can't sell red after that date. They also say that because they don't hold a large stock they have to buy it in at more than the supermarket sells it for so they'll be charging over £1 a litre.

 

Is this the official line or are they, or their supplier, jumping the gun?

 

Ric.

 

Watch them go out of business!

[DHutch]

Watch them go out of business!

Yeah, its a mess.

- But all the marinas cant go out of business, your still have canalside fuel from somwhere.

 

 

Daniel

[Tinally]

As I read it, red should still be available after January 1st. The government has yet to decide the timetable for implementation....and Gordon doesn't HAVE to tax it at the same rate as road fuel, only at the minimum level as set by the EU, which wouldn't actually put much on the cost at all!

 

No doubt someone will tell me I'm wrong!!

 

Dick

[minerva]

this has got a lot of folk in a flat spin.

 

there's nothing been said officially as far as i know...i agree with Tinally.

 

wait and see, its no good jumping the gun, is it? if they charge the full rate of tax it wont just be the canalside sellers that go to the wall will it? its gong to kill boating full stop for a lot of people, and businesses.

[Mick and Pauline]

The marina where I moor has said that they will only be selling white diesel from January 1st. They say they can't sell red after that date. They also say that because they don't hold a large stock they have to buy it in at more than the supermarket sells it for so they'll be charging over £1 a litre.

 

Is this the official line or are they, or their supplier, jumping the gun?

 

Ric.

 

There will be no official change for sometime, first Gordon and his minister plus their civil servants have to decide what course of action they want to take.

Discuss this action plan with the interested parties, oil companies (the suppliers), HM Customs (the tax collectors & overseers), retailers (the chandler's, boatyards) and finally the end user (the BMF etc).

Once everybody is in agreement, Gordon will need to put the relevant paperwork to the Commons to change the law and then he can only bring in the new tax for pleasure boats via a Budget. Then and only then, the oil companies can apply the new rate, which is paid direct to HM Customs.

 

So, I do not know what your marina is up to, it sound like "self destruct" if everybody around the marina continues sell cheaper red diesel for the immediate future.

 

Now consider how fast it will take the government to make these changes, quiet awhile, so our red's going to be around for month's, may be another year.

 

M&P.

[magnetman]

Yeah, its a mess.

- But all the marinas cant go out of business, your still have canalside fuel from somwhere.

Daniel

 

That'd be tesco then.

[Ricardo]

I'm assuming it's the supplier who has forced this on the marina, they don't sell enough to make a vast difference to their profits, I don't think it'll put them out of business if we all go to Tesco with a jerrycan. It's mainly going to be the liveaboards who suffer from this with their diesel heating.

 

I was just a bit surprised having followed threads on this forum to hear the guy in the shop say that he isn't allowed to sell red diesel after January 1st. Is someone pulling the wool over his eyes, is the supplier going to benefit from selling him white diesel when he could be selling him red? The only thing I can think of is that they want to flush all the red out of their trucks during the transition period.

 

There are plenty of farms around the area, I've been offered red diesel by the jerrycan already without even asking!!

 

Ric.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Ricardo

[DHutch]

That'd be tesco then.

Yeah, its all possable.

- Tescos are already a step ahead in the canal game with quite a large number of canal-side supermarkets, anything is possable.

 

Daniel

[Mick and Pauline]

I'm assuming it's the supplier who has forced this on the marina, they don't sell enough to make a vast difference to their profits, I don't think it'll put them out of business if we all go to Tesco with a jerrycan. It's mainly going to be the liveaboards who suffer from this with their diesel heating.

 

I was just a bit surprised having followed threads on this forum to hear the guy in the shop say that he isn't allowed to sell red diesel after January 1st. Is someone pulling the wool over his eyes, is the supplier going to benefit from selling him white diesel when he could be selling him red? The only thing I can think of is that they want to flush all the red out of their trucks during the transition period.

 

There are plenty of farms around the area, I've been offered red diesel by the jerrycan already without even asking!!

 

Ric.

 

Hi Ric,

 

Interesting point, the marina fuel supplier will have a profit margin on both fuels, I would have thought the marina suppliers white diesel (Derv) profit margin would be smaller because that market is more competitive because of the supermarket influence on the pump price.

 

What I think is, the marina can make more profit from white diesel than red diesel, they just needed an excuse to explain the fuel change to the customers.

It is crazy for the marina to expect it's customers to go from paying 50p per litre for red to over 100p per litre for white, when red is still widely available legally.

 

Now because this is just the marina acting on their own, not a legal requirement, the livaboards can buy red from another outlet, be it a local farmer or another boatyard / chandlers / marina.

 

M&P.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Mick and Pauline

[WJM]

Has anyone considred HOW the marina is going to sell 'clean' white - their tank, lines and pump will be contaminated with red. Perhaps that isnt seen as a problem - but whatever you do dont put any of their white in your car!

[myomo]

Ric,

from your 'information' I see your boat is in Shropshire - a very rural area. So I suggest you follow M&P's advice and find a local bulk fuel supplier where you can buy Red diesel - buy/aquire a coupleof 25 ltr fuel containers, take proof of boat ownership and present to refinery office. I did that in Valley (Anglesey) with no problem, I've also done the same at a petrol station, just off the A5, Wheaton Aston - I think. Invest in a hand syphon for fuel transfere and job done!

 

Regards

 

TeeELL (for some reason I cannot post logged in as me !!!!)

[david and julie]

Has anyone considred HOW the marina is going to sell 'clean' white - their tank, lines and pump will be contaminated with red. Perhaps that isnt seen as a problem - but whatever you do dont put any of their white in your car!

 

They will no doubt have to do the same as we will and clean out their equipment. It is my belief our underhand leaders will set a target date when enforcement(tank dipping) will commence. They will pretend to be reasonable, when in reality they will put the practical problems of compliance onto suppliers first, followed by the end user. I would imagine that after the target date the jackboots will be in confiscating a few boats,as examples, to concentrate our minds.

 

I haven't spoken to my supplier but making a start in January wouldn't suprise me at all. The UK Gov's position is pretty clear on this and they no doubt presented a sham case to the EU. Anyone thinking they don't have implementation plans already in place is deluding themselves.

 

My guess is new supplies delivered after January 1st will be white, carrying the most duty they can possibly charge, red will gradually run out on the system, aiming for all white by June. The industry cost would be covered by boaters having to pay to have their tanks cleaned out(plus VAT for Gordon again).

 

I believe we are all used by the labour spin machine here, at some point they will no doubt comment about the "bleating middle class boaters" which would rouse a cheer amongst many of their supporters.

[bottle]

Speculation speculation speculation

 

Why cannot people deal with facts, there will be a transition to 'white' diesel it will not happen overnight and definitely will not happen on 1st January 2007

 

Have a look here Narrowboat world breaking news

 

There will be negotiations with the EU as to when it will apply, then our own laws/regulations need changing.

[WJM]

"Anyone thinking they don't have implementation plans already in place is deluding themselves."

 

totally with you on that - the oil companies must be delighted - eventually no more two tier supply chain - and the rapidly revolving UK government can pretend the EU forced the whole thing on them - Tony Blair's legacy; taking sidestepping to an art-form!

 

 

 

Is it possible to 'clean out' a system - I thought the whole point of the red marker was that it was incredibly difficult to drive out once it is in?

[Mick and Pauline]

Speculation speculation speculation

 

Why cannot people deal with facts, there will be a transition to 'white' diesel it will not happen overnight and definitely will not happen on 1st January 2007

 

Have a look here Narrowboat world breaking news

 

There will be negotiations with the EU as to when it will apply, then our own laws/regulations need changing.

 

Thanks Bottle,

 

There are too many on here that want to make political statements, this is a canal forum !!!.

 

I tried to answer the original question on Post 6, which is exactly what Bottle is highlighting on the other website.

 

So please lets stick to the original question.

 

M&P.

[miles beyond]

Thanks Bottle,

 

There are too many on here that want to make political statements, this is a canal forum !!!.

 

I tried to answer the original question on Post 6, which is exactly what Bottle is highlighting on the other website.

 

So please lets stick to the original question.

 

M&P.

 

Politics are central to an issue such as red diesel. It was a political decision to end the derogation. Now it will be a political decision that decides how the transition takes place, and what approach the Exchequer takes to the requirement to tax diesel for recreational craft. Equally it was a political decision to cut BW's funding. I can't see how politics can be excluded from such topics.

[nigel carton]

Politics are central to an issue such as red diesel. It was a political decision to end the derogation. Now it will be a political decision that decides how the transition takes place, and what approach the Exchequer takes to the requirement to tax diesel for recreational craft. Equally it was a political decision to cut BW's funding. I can't see how politics can be excluded from such topics.

Totally agree.

[Hairy-Neil]

The industry cost would be covered by boaters having to pay to have their tanks cleaned out(plus VAT for Gordon again).

 

Since most narrowboats have integral tanks without access hatches, how do you propose they be cleaned , turn them upside down and shake them???

[Canal Shop Man]

The marina where I moor has said that they will only be selling white diesel from January 1st. They say they can't sell red after that date. They also say that because they don't hold a large stock they have to buy it in at more than the supermarket sells it for so they'll be charging over £1 a litre.

 

Is this the official line or are they, or their supplier, jumping the gun?

 

Ric.

Please can I correct this post.

 

Marina red diesel suppliers have had NO NOTIFICATION of any change to red diesel yet. If this marina off its own bat has decided to switch to white diesel, then I suggest that you find the next nearest marina!

 

As usual there is mass hysteria starting. Please don't panic . . .(yet!)

 

(In case you don't know I supply red diesel at our marina, so I should know what I am talking about)

Edited December 18, 2006 by Canal Shop Man

[Badger_1]

If we all fill a can with 5litres of diesel every now and then when we call for petrol and then take it and tip it in the tank as we visit the boat at regular intervals, will we really notice that much difference? Most of us only fill up once or twice a season anyway.

 

Do it in bits and it wont feel as bad.

 

Question: When the time comes and we get a bit of white stuff, can we just tip it in and will it mix ok with the red thats still in the tank?

Suppose it might cough and splutter and smoke a bit whilst it clears its lungs but should think it will sort itself out.

 

Anyone more technically minded like to share their views on this?

[bottle]

If we all fill a can with 5litres of diesel every now and then when we call for petrol and then take it and tip it in the tank as we visit the boat at regular intervals, will we really notice that much difference? Most of us only fill up once or twice a season anyway.

 

Do it in bits and it wont feel as bad.

 

Question: When the time comes and we get a bit of white stuff, can we just tip it in and will it mix ok with the red thats still in the tank?

Suppose it might cough and splutter and smoke a bit whilst it clears its lungs but should think it will sort itself out.

 

Anyone more technically minded like to share their views on this?

 

 

Yes it will mix with out any problem, depending on ratio (how much you put in per fill) then you may (over time) notice a 'cleaner' burn and a little more power.

[david and julie]

Since most narrowboats have integral tanks without access hatches, how do you propose they be cleaned , turn them upside down and shake them???

 

Remove the red (by whatever means you wish). Flush out with white diesel and remove again. Finally fill with white diesel and fit new filters.

 

The above was the advice given by customs to the powered access industry when faced with a red/white problem.

http://www.ipaf.org/news_19.htm

 

The only practical difference with a narrowboat is the lack of gravity, that said, I do once recall seeing something that may overcome that problem, I think it was called a pump.

[matt]

I think a lot of people are going to use large jerry cans and fill up at garages if we're forced to use white.

 

My concern (having tried to fill the boat using one of these) is that it's very hard to pour it without getting some in the cut, even when I use a funnel I still splash - if filling up using a can becomes the norm it's going to get messy.

 

Matt.

 

Edit: it looks like MachineMart are doing spouts now for those cans, but my concern still holds as whenever I've seen diesel drifting past 9 times out of 10 it's someone filling up themselves.

Edited December 18, 2006 by matt

[david and julie]

Matt, you need one of those plastic syphons from a garden centre, very cheap and you don't spill anything.