Fire extinguishers

[ChrisPy]

Shopping around, I find that different suppliers allocate different capacities to their fire extinguishers. For example Budget Fire describe a 1kg powder extinguisher as 5A 34B C, but Value Fire describe a 1kg as 8A 34B C.

 

Does anybody know if the supplier's stated capacities are accepted during BSC inspection, or should each type/size have a generic fixed capacity?

Edited November 6, 2006 by chris polley

[Gary Peacock]

Shopping around, I find that different suppliers allocate different capacities to their fire extinguishers. For example Budget Fire describe a 1kg powder extinguisher as 5A 34A C, but Value Fire describe a 1kg as 8A 34B C.

 

Does anybody know if the supplier's stated capacities are accepted during BSC inspection, or should each type/size have a generic fixed capacity?

 

 

They have to use the manafacturers stated ratings the manafacturers have to observe set ISO's when making their claims.

[NB Phoenix]

Shopping around, I find that different suppliers allocate different capacities to their fire extinguishers. For example Budget Fire describe a 1kg powder extinguisher as 5A 34B C, but Value Fire describe a 1kg as 8A 34B C.

 

Does anybody know if the supplier's stated capacities are accepted during BSC inspection, or should each type/size have a generic fixed capacity?

 

Hi Chris

 

Sorry to be a bit long winded but each manufacture of extinguishers has to get them tested after the test they are given a fire rating, which is indicated by a number and letter. (13A, 55B) The number is the size of fire it can extinguish under the test conditions, the larger the number, the larger the fire it can extinguish. The letter indicates the fire classification. Some extinguisher like Powder carry both a class A and class B rating because of the properties of the extinguishing medium.

 

Class A is “Ordinary Combustibles” i.e. Organic material.

Class B is “Flammable Liquids”

 

Other classes include:- Class C “Gas” - Class D “Metal” – Class F “Fats and Cooking Oils”

 

So equal size/weight extinguishers may have different Fire Ratings. It’s all down to the design of the extinguisher.

 

The BSS Inspector must take the rating printed on the side of each individual extinguisher.

 

As a firefighter I would like to add a few more points (if you are still awake). Obviously buy the highest rating extinguishers (above the BSS requirement) you can afford. Never use “normal” extinguishers for fats or cooking oil fires, they are too powerful and will only spread the fire. For these types of fire use your fire blanket. And extinguishers are only first-aid equipment, get everyone out of the boat first, call the Fire Service, only then attempt to tackle the fire using you extinguishers.

 

Hope that helps

 

John

[ChrisPy]

 

 

Hope that helps

 

John

absolutely, thanks.

 

.............. by the way, can I ask what type you use to make up the BSS quota? just powder as seems to be the accepted standard, or do you also have foam?

 

PS when I was last at home I saw a delightful sight. A sleek lined fireboat, looked to be Edwardian in style, with 2 polished nozzles blasting water in huge fountains in the holding basin above the lock to the Bristol Floating Harbour. It stopped the traffic on the adjacent roads.

Edited November 6, 2006 by chris polley

[NB Phoenix]

absolutely, thanks.

 

.............. by the way, can I ask what type you use to make up the BSS quota? just powder as seems to be the accepted standard, or do you also have foam?

 

PS when I was last at home I saw a delightful sight. A sleek lined fireboat, looked to be Edwardian in style, with 2 polished nozzles blasting water in huge fountains in the holding basin above the lock to the Bristol Floating Harbour. It stopped the traffic on the adjacent roads.

 

Chris,, I have three powder extinguishers with a rating well above what is required. So I do practice what I preach (sometimes). Powder is a good all-round media. We could get very involved with the pros and cons of foam over powder but just to say foam is better for liquid fires where the liquid has been heated for some time, either by the fire or by a process. For the quick first attack I would stick with powder.

 

I have included the link from the seller on eBay where I got mine. As far as I can see they are fine, look the business and have all the correct CE BS EN markings.

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2KG-POWDER-FIRE-EXTI...oQQcmdZViewItem

[David Schweizer]

I agree with Pheonix. The total extinguisher rating on my boat is more than double the minimum required by the BSS.

 

When I skippered a passenger boat our premises and boat were assesed by a Fire Officer who recomended using the 2kg 13A extinguishers rather than the smaller 1kg 13A extinguishers, on the basis that you get more powder and therefore more coverage in less time, which could be important in the case of an engine fire.

 

Another factor which many people sem to forget is checking that the extinguishers are still functional. I get mine serviced regularly by the suppliers Chubb (fortunately they do it at discount because it is quite expensive)

Edited November 6, 2006 by David Schweizer

[cheshire~rose]

 

Another factor which many people sem to forget is checking that the extinguishers are still functional. I get mine serviced regularly by the suppliers Chubb (fortunately they do it at discount because it is quite expensive)

 

I would like to add to that, if you have aquired an old extinguisher, be it on a boat, in a car, or by any other means, PLEASE do not forget that they are pressurised containers and as such can be lethal in certain circumstances.

Most people are well aware of the risk if they get too hot (close to a fire for example) but do not overlook that metal can corrode (especially in the presence of water) and it also becomes fatigued with age. Corrosion will often occur around the base of an extinguisher (especially if it spends time standing on a damp surface) where it is not always obvious at first glance.

In these circumstances the powder inside the cannister becomes damp and sets solid, it can set inside the syphon tube meaning that if you strike the knob to discharge the cannister the powder has nowhere to go and the pressure released into the cannister finds the easiest exit. The weakest point will be the corroded base which in turn turns the cannister into a high velocity missile. Not something that you would want to be holding on to when it took off and certainly not what you want when you expected it to assist in saving your life/ possesions from fire!

Sorry if I make this sound grim but it is far too often overlooked and having had close experience of just how catastrophic such an accident can be I want to ensure that no one else ever has to contend with a problem like it.

Just get your extinguishers serviced and if they look at all doubtful treat them as you would an unexploded bomb because that is the potential they contain!

[NB Phoenix]

I agree with Pheonix. The total extinguisher rating on my boat is more than double the minimum required by the BSS.

 

When I skippered a passenger boat our premises and boat were assesed by a Fire Officer who recomended using the 2kg 13A extinguishers rather than the smaller 1kg 13A extinguishers, on the basis that you get more powder and therefore more coverage in less time, which could be important in the case of an engine fire.

 

Another factor which many people sem to forget is checking that the extinguishers are still functional. I get mine serviced regularly by the suppliers Chubb (fortunately they do it at discount because it is quite expensive)

 

Hi David

 

Don’t know if it’s a typo or not, but either a 1kg 13A or a 2kg 13A extinguisher will “in theory” still only put out the same size fire.

 

The weight of the extinguisher media is not necessarily a measure if it’s efficiently. These extinguishers are tested under ideal conditions by trained operators. It is generally accepted that in the hands of an untrained operator, extinguisher are around 40% less effective. So it’s the second figure that is the important one and we should be trying to get this as high as possible for the price we can afford to pay.

 

I do agree with your comments regarding checking.

 

Regards

 

John

[scoobydog]

I have just had the BSS Examiner in.

 

The new extinguishers (Pyramid Dry Powder) I bought from the local caravan place had CE marks, and the TUV certification. (If you shop at Aldi or the like, you will be aware that most Aldi stuff is TUV certified! Even the Solar Panel is TUV Certified!)

 

The examiner could not find the TUV mark in his book, and had to call for assistance. (They were out.)

 

He later called me to tell me that the BSS say that these extinguishers are no use!

 

So, I now need to get ANOTHER set of extinguishers!

 

Why does BSS not look at the internet?

 

This is what I found in seconds!

 

http://www.tuv-sud.jp/english/corp/index.html

 

Do you know the TÜV SÜD mark(TÜV mark)? This mark, born in Germany and approved globally, knows all about the safety standards of the world and also quality and environmental management systems. Therefore, this mark alone conveys the value-added of your products and provides visible communication not achieved with other marks. Affixing the globally-known TÜV SÜD mark(TÜV mark) announces the high safety and quality of your products. In Japan, TÜV SÜD Japan provides customers with the TÜV mark to prove high reliability and quality and also with various certification services from the TÜV SÜD Group.

 

Independence

Independent third-party testing and certification organization born in Germany

TÜV is the acronym of Technischer Überwachungs - Verein, meaning technical examination association in Germany. This third-party testing and certification organization born in Germany is independent of the government. In Germany, people are highly conscious of product safety certification by a third-party organization. The ratio of consumers "selecting products or goods with certification marking" is 34%, 24% of whom purchase because of the TÜV mark. The TÜV SÜD Group is a third-party testing and certification organization representing Germany.

 

Safety

Protecting people since the 1860s, starting from boiler inspection

The TÜV SÜD Group started out testing the safety of boiler facilities in the 1860s. Ever since, the Group has been committed to protecting people by testing and certifying the safety of various products, not only boilers. As a third-party testing and certification organization, the Group has issued certificates for more than 25,000 products, an achievement that proves the value of TÜV SÜD mark(TÜV mark).

 

So, what now?

 

EDIT...

 

The BSS Website is not available now! What is going on?

Edited March 3, 2007 by scoobydog

[smileypete]

I have just had the BSS Examiner in.

 

The new extinguishers (Pyramid Dry Powder) I bought from the local caravan place had CE marks, and the TUV certification. (If you shop at Aldi or the like, you will be aware that most Aldi stuff is TUV certified! Even the Solar Panel is TUV Certified!)

 

The examiner could not find the TUV mark in his book, and had to call for assistance. (They were out.)

 

He later called me to tell me that the BSS say that these extinguishers are no use!

 

So, I now need to get ANOTHER set of extinguishers!

 

Why does BSS not look at the internet?

 

So, what now?

 

EDIT...

 

The BSS Website is not available now! What is going on?

 

Hi,

 

Okay...

 

The BSS requires quote "evidence of accredited third-party certification".... "‘CE’ marking alone on any extinguisher does not indicate certification of performance to EN3"

 

I think where you may have been caught out is that the TUV mark is like ISO 9001, and relates to certification of the company's processes, and not the extinguisher itself.

 

AIUI what the BSS requires is third party certification of performance to EN3. All extinguishers sold in the EU have to be manufactured to EN3 but this is not enough!!!

 

You have all my sympathy though, I'm about to get my THIRD set of extinguishers for the BSS.

 

Personally I think that anything extra to being manufactured to CE EN3 is totally unneccessary.

 

If an extinguisher made to CE EN3 is suitable for use in home or office, then why the need for additional certification for use in boats?

 

Sometimes I think I would like to emigrate and get away from this madness!

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Guest]

Simple formula I have learned the hard way:

 

boat safety certificate = new set of extinguishers

 

[DaveR]

So what happens to the Nitrogen charged ones which, to all of the shipping classification socuieties (ABS, DnV, Lloyds etc), have a 15 year life. Do the BSS examiners work to a different set of rules? The extinuishers are Wheel marked, CE marked, EN3 rated and of the sufficient rating. How can this mean that they need changing every BSS survey? In addition what maintenance work can be done? Weight and pressure gauge reading are all that can be done, once you have inverted the extinguisher and slapped it around a bit with the heel of your hand to loosen off the powder.

 

I ask because I have changed all of mine over to Nitrogen charged ones and I hope they don't fail.

 

Regards

 

Dave R

[ChrisPy]

Do the BSS examiners work to a different set of rules? The extinuishers are Wheel marked, CE marked, EN3 rated and of the sufficient rating.

BSS chapter 6 accepts the wheel mark, so there should be no argument. I suggest anyone who is buying should print off the relevant page of the BSS guide and carry it with them when they buy, and when the inspector comes a'visiting.

[Tony Brooks]

snip

 

 

Another factor which many people sem to forget is checking that the extinguishers are still functional. I get mine serviced regularly by the suppliers Chubb (fortunately they do it at discount because it is quite expensive)

 

 

Could not agree more about checking, but I do not call about £20 for the annual check & marking of 3 extinguishers expensive - even a recharger is not much more than that per extinguisher. However I do not use Chubb or any other national setup.

 

Ask your local fire service who they use for their extinguishers and go there - I bet they will be cheaper than Chubb. Also deliver them and collect, you are bound to pay more for van service.

 

Any one around Berkshire I recommend Reading Extinguisher Services. (RES)

 

Tony Brooks

[bendyboat]

Hi Chris

 

Sorry to be a bit long winded but each manufacture of extinguishers has to get them tested after the test they are given a fire rating, which is indicated by a number and letter. (13A, 55B) The number is the size of fire it can extinguish under the test conditions, the larger the number, the larger the fire it can extinguish. The letter indicates the fire classification. Some extinguisher like Powder carry both a class A and class B rating because of the properties of the extinguishing medium.

 

Class A is “Ordinary Combustibles” i.e. Organic material.

Class B is “Flammable Liquids”

 

Other classes include:- Class C “Gas” - Class D “Metal” – Class F “Fats and Cooking Oils”

 

So equal size/weight extinguishers may have different Fire Ratings. It’s all down to the design of the extinguisher.

 

The BSS Inspector must take the rating printed on the side of each individual extinguisher.

 

As a firefighter I would like to add a few more points (if you are still awake). Obviously buy the highest rating extinguishers (above the BSS requirement) you can afford. Never use “normal” extinguishers for fats or cooking oil fires, they are too powerful and will only spread the fire. For these types of fire use your fire blanket. And extinguishers are only first-aid equipment, get everyone out of the boat first, call the Fire Service, only then attempt to tackle the fire using you extinguishers.

 

Hope that helps

 

John

hi folks

as a retired firefighter might i just add one point to the above, please make sure that if (god forbid) it does happen to you, that you keep your safe exit clear and available and dont go beyond your capability, i suppose thats two points, but you know what i mean

[NB Alnwick]

The link that John (NB Phoenix) posted earlier is to an expired item and as the eBay is currently undergoing changes that sometimes cause expired items to appear on the screen as continually scrolling down, I thought the link below (to the same firm) would prove more useful.

 

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/leisureproductsbypost

 

 

You will still need to find the fire extinguishers from among all the baloons but they are there - honest!

 

I note that they also supply CO2 extinguishers and it was always my understanding that these might be better for use in the engine room. Any advice on the use of CO2 ?

[NB Phoenix]

Hi Graham

 

Where shall we start regarding CO2 extinguishers? Firstly, because they are under a higher pressure than other types of extinguishers therefore body of the extinguisher has to be made of thicker materials, thus adding to the weight. Weight for weight CO2 will have a lower fire rating than other media. i.e. Powder. Secondly CO2 works by replacing the Oxygen in the air to extinguish the fire. Without teaching anybody to suck eggs, a fire requires a fuel, some heat and that Oxygen in the atmosphere. (The triangle of fire) Remove any side and the fire MUST go out. Unfortunately CO2 is a gas and has a habit of floating around with the movement of the air. To use your example of an engine fire, given you have sufficient CO2 it WILL put the fire out, but it has virtually no cooling effect. So the fuel still remains, the heat is still there (engine, exhaust or even the heat generated by the fire) the CO2 can disperse and the Oxygen will return.

 

Woomph you get a re-ignition.

 

I think it may help if we look at some of the advantages and disadvantages of CO2

 

Advantages.

CO2 will not cause any damage to the boat or engine, unlike Powder or Foam.

If the engine compartment is enclosed you can still blast CO2 in and fill the space, thus extinguishing the fire. (See Below)

 

Disadvantages.

The possible risk of re-ignition.

Weight and size of a dependable extinguisher.

In use they get VERY cold, down to -70C and can couse cold burns to hands.

 

THE BIG ONE! CO2 is an Asphixiant so in the confined space of an engine room it can KILL!

 

If you want my opinion, for what it’s worth. A good sized CO2 is fine for the engine room, but I would back it up with a decent Powder extinguisher. If you put the out fire with the CO2, great, apart from the fire no damage to engine or boat. If your not successful with the CO2 the Powder might and you may still save the rest of the boat.

 

And I reiterate exactly what bendyboat has said regarding escape and capability.

 

Hope this helps and thanks for sorting out my link to ebay.

 

Regards

 

John.

[pmms]

Hi all

 

I cant believe we are having a topic re fire extinguishers 10 YEARS on.

 

1. the CE mark on the extinguisher has no relevence to the suitability of the extinguisher, it refers to the bottle itself meeting the pressure vessel directive.

 

2. The wheel mark shows that the extinguisher meets the requirements of the marine equipment directive, and is an acceptable marking for the BSS.

 

3. Maintenance. The last review of the scheme introduced a limited requirement for maintenance of extinguishers. IF the manufacturer of the extinguisher has printed on the body a life or replace by date then it must be serviced as per the wording in the Boaters guide, otherwise it should just have a condition check in line withe the guide. This was a whimp out by the various BSS committees, the tech committe recommended set servicing periods but this was rejected futher up the line.

 

4. yes you can have a foam extinguisher providing all the other criteria are complied with.

 

Remember the requirements are the minimum number.

 

HTH

 

Paul M

[smileypete]

Hi all

 

I cant believe we are having a topic re fire extinguishers 10 YEARS on.

 

1. the CE mark on the extinguisher has no relevence to the suitability of the extinguisher, it refers to the bottle itself meeting the pressure vessel directive.

 

Maybe, but why are extinguishers meeting EN3 and sold for use in home and offices unsuitable for use in boats?

 

If extinguishers needed to be independently certified, then why isn't it required for all extinguishers?

 

cheers,

Pete.