All Electric

[George94]

The real world of all electric boating, as opposed to the fanciful world of solar powered all electric boating. What else did you think I was talking about?? Yes generating to provide heat is inefficient but so is charging batteries to run TVs, lighting, water pumps, fridges etc etc.

 

Don't get carried away with the idea that modern canal boating is somehow 'efficient'

 

The difference being that radios etc require electricity. Heating a boat doesn't. If anybody is being "carried away", it ain't me.

[Dalslandia]

We will always have losses in power and heating producing.

Take new modern diesel car, very efficient, depending os size and use, using 3-5 liter / 100 km.

The engines is so efficient so most diesel cars sold in Sweden/Nordic countrys have a diesel heater as standard, a few cheaper cars have them as option.

the diesel heater is used for pre heating the engine and cabin before drive, and if it is really cold even used during the drive.!

So as we say, how you ever turn, the ass is back.

a diesel is 30-50% efficient, the latest diesels probably at or close to 50%. the older big truck diesels probably 40%.

take a 30% efficient engine, 30% of the energey is useful work, 30% losses in exhaust, 30% in heat, and 10% in friction and other losses, (water pump, alternator...) so it can have 30% of the energy to keep the passengers warm.

 

A modern little diesel say it is 50% efficient, (just guessing the proportions) say 20% each is heat and exhaust losses, 10% still friction)

we have only 20% or less (maybe the exhaust is still ~30%) to heat the passenger,

It is not enough if it is -20C outside the car.

So we burn diesel in a diesel heater to keep the feet warm so to speak.

 

In a boat the engine still is 30-50% efficient if used at peak efficiency (about where torque curve peak) but is a lot less efficient going slower, The heat can be used for warming water and radiators that is ++ in 9-11 month a year.

 

If the engine is driving a generator, the engine can be little smaller? and run more efficient, the generator will be 70-90% efficient, and the charger/controler ~95% and battery ~95%? so a minimum 20% losses in the electric circut, but engine up to 50%, so total 10-30%

we can still use the heat from engine to heat water.

 

The battery have losses both ways, in and out.

 

A electric motor/controller drive is 80-95% efficient, the battery ~95%, so 75-90%

Going slow in the canal/locks the diesel engine is maybe 5% efficient.

 

So we can see if going fast and when we need range the direct diesel is most efficient.

going low and slow, the pure electric is best, if we then can charge all or most of it with sun panels, and even shore line charge, that is very economical if we see to running cost.

 

If it is a parallell hybrid, where the diesel is driving the propeller direct, and the electric motor become a generator the batteries can be charged with the engine driving both the boat at a good speed and generator at or near its peak efficiency when needed.

 

It is at the end of the battery charging when high volts / low amps is needed to top the batteries, the genset is becoming very inefficient, here the sun panels or shore line charge will pay off.

 

And it all become a silent efficient electric boat when we really want and need it, with a good battey bank we can go canal slow and silent, for a day or two, if there is any down sides with that setup, the silence over-power that many times, it is only the nej sayers that will be heard.

[George94]

We will always have losses in power and heating producing.

Take new modern diesel car, very efficient, depending os size and use, using 3-5 liter / 100 km.

The engines is so efficient so most diesel cars sold in Sweden/Nordic countrys have a diesel heater as standard, a few cheaper cars have them as option.

the diesel heater is used for pre heating the engine and cabin before drive, and if it is really cold even used during the drive.!

So as we say, how you ever turn, the ass is back.

a diesel is 30-50% efficient, the latest diesels probably at or close to 50%. the older big truck diesels probably 40%.

take a 30% efficient engine, 30% of the energey is useful work, 30% losses in exhaust, 30% in heat, and 10% in friction and other losses, (water pump, alternator...) so it can have 30% of the energy to keep the passengers warm.

 

A modern little diesel say it is 50% efficient, (just guessing the proportions) say 20% each is heat and exhaust losses, 10% still friction)

we have only 20% or less (maybe the exhaust is still ~30%) to heat the passenger,

It is not enough if it is -20C outside the car.

So we burn diesel in a diesel heater to keep the feet warm so to speak.

 

In a boat the engine still is 30-50% efficient if used at peak efficiency (about where torque curve peak) but is a lot less efficient going slower, The heat can be used for warming water and radiators that is ++ in 9-11 month a year.

 

If the engine is driving a generator, the engine can be little smaller? and run more efficient, the generator will be 70-90% efficient, and the charger/controler ~95% and battery ~95%? so a minimum 20% losses in the electric circut, but engine up to 50%, so total 10-30%

we can still use the heat from engine to heat water.

 

The battery have losses both ways, in and out.

 

A electric motor/controller drive is 80-95% efficient, the battery ~95%, so 75-90%

Going slow in the canal/locks the diesel engine is maybe 5% efficient.

 

So we can see if going fast and when we need range the direct diesel is most efficient.

going low and slow, the pure electric is best, if we then can charge all or most of it with sun panels, and even shore line charge, that is very economical if we see to running cost.

 

If it is a parallell hybrid, where the diesel is driving the propeller direct, and the electric motor become a generator the batteries can be charged with the engine driving both the boat at a good speed and generator at or near its peak efficiency when needed.

 

It is at the end of the battery charging when high volts / low amps is needed to top the batteries, the genset is becoming very inefficient, here the sun panels or shore line charge will pay off.

 

And it all become a silent efficient electric boat when we really want and need it, with a good battey bank we can go canal slow and silent, for a day or two, if there is any down sides with that setup, the silence over-power that many times, it is only the nej sayers that will be heard.

Most of the time you are not in a lock. And when you are in a lock, the engine in idling and using very little fuel. So I think your figures are wrong.

 

The fact is that we would all love to have an electrically-propelled boat. But it just ain't practicable unless you are happy to use it only in summer and only for a few miles a day.

 

Of course, if CART were to invest £100 million in towpath charging points things would be very different. I wonder if they do the lottery.

Edited August 11, 2013 by George94

[Dalslandia]

You are right it use very little fuel idling, But it don't use the fuel efficient if you see to the resulting work it does, moving the boat. It takes very little to move the boat very slow, but the internal combustion engine isn't efficient at low load, most of the fuel is used to just run the engine. even if it is small amounts for that period, if you turn the engine off it don't use any fuel I am sure. but who want to turn off the engine in the lock, not me.

 

In relation to most NB, my boat use 56 litre a day, going 15 nm or 17 miles in 5 hours,

2,4 hours is on lakes between the canal/locks, 16 locks, so 2,6 h in locks and slower canals.

we cruise at 6 knots on the lakes using less then 45% power (Scania 11 litre 163PS/120 kW)

Main engine probably using 16 l/h at 6 knots,

main engine using 2 l/h at idle, and the gen set 2-2,5 l/h, so 15-17 litre a day

The electric double oven and cooker is 15kW, electric hot water and 3phase 11kW bow thruster.

2,4 h at 6 kts is 14,4 nm using 18,5 l/h with gen set = 44,4liter / 14,4 = 3liter/nm

the remaining 0,6 nm takes 2,6 h and use 4,5 l/h = 11,7 litre (main and gen set) = 19,6 litre/nm

Total during the day 56/15=3,75 l/nm

If we divide that on the 110 passenger it can take it is not so bad.

 

There is lot of very good info on serial and hybrid system, real reliable testing on the Hymar project, we all paid for.

The most gain was in propeller efficiency, something to think about.

http://www.bruntons-propellers.com/hymar/HYMAR.PDF

 

My boat is found at www.dalslandia.com

Edited August 11, 2013 by Dalslandia

[Dalslandia]

What you say George, and me too, is that economical, it is hard to beat the diesel engine, enviromental, we should not start on that, the Chinese have stoped to accept our used batteries...

 

Politics, it is very good with every thing that say hybrid, but they don't know a sh**

Pure electric, what to do with batteries after 10 years, or 5 if missused? just think if every car is electric, saw thay want to ban all gasoline/petrol/ diesel in a near future

 

For a recreational or liveaboard I can see the + with a hybrid, if it use sun panels that can fully or partial replace the energy for canal cruising that is ++

using a diesel on faster - longer parts. and redundency. if something will brake, and it will.

 

My passenger boat could go fully electric or semi using a diesel or Sterling engine for generator, I can replace the barlast with batteries.

but it is a certified boat/engine as it is commersial

 

Jan

Edited August 11, 2013 by Dalslandia

[Laurie St Lyon]

Firstly ley me thank everyone who has contributed to this topic. Not merely for the trenchant opinions But for all the useful information.

Not for the first time the great British weather settles the matter!

 

So, it seems to me, I CAN go all electric BUT I need a genset for use in winter months along with a decent sized solar setup and reasonable battery bank that is divided between Propulsion and Domestic use with a differentiated charging regimes to prolong the life of the batteries in addition a decent inverter.

With a proper stove and back boiler for heating (Planning to build a Rocket stove) and hot water.

 

Well, reality has bit and I will probably buy a narrowboat and adapt rather than a broadbeam fit out which was my original intention.

So will start with sorting out the domestic side electrically and then think about propulsion as a next step.

Simply put MONEY talks and what I will have is whispering rather than shouting! lol!

 

As a token of appreciation and to give back I will start a blog on this when I get the boat. Detailing all the nitty gritty, pitfalls and pratfalls! So feel free to look it up and remember " I don't have to come here and be abused....there are lots other places that will do just as good a job!"

[George94]

Firstly ley me thank everyone who has contributed to this topic. Not merely for the trenchant opinions But for all the useful information.

Not for the first time the great British weather settles the matter!

 

So, it seems to me, I CAN go all electric BUT I need a genset for use in winter months along with a decent sized solar setup and reasonable battery bank that is divided between Propulsion and Domestic use with a differentiated charging regimes to prolong the life of the batteries in addition a decent inverter.

With a proper stove and back boiler for heating (Planning to build a Rocket stove) and hot water.

 

Well, reality has bit and I will probably buy a narrowboat and adapt rather than a broadbeam fit out which was my original intention.

So will start with sorting out the domestic side electrically and then think about propulsion as a next step.

Simply put MONEY talks and what I will have is whispering rather than shouting! lol!

 

As a token of appreciation and to give back I will start a blog on this when I get the boat. Detailing all the nitty gritty, pitfalls and pratfalls! So feel free to look it up and remember " I don't have to come here and be abused....there are lots other places that will do just as good a job!"

 

One thing we have learned is that "all-electric" means electric and diesel. And coal for winter fuel. Or gas.

 

BTW, if you want a lot of solar, you might be better off going wide anyway. Otherwise you won't have room for much else on your roof. Especially if you fit a solar hot water system (which you should).

There's something to be said for steam power. In some parts of the country, wood is free, or very cheap. Steam engines are easy to make (I am told). All you need is a wide roof to store the wood.

[nb Innisfree]

 

One thing we have learned is that "all-electric" means electric and diesel. And coal for winter fuel. Or gas.

 

BTW, if you want a lot of solar, you might be better off going wide anyway. Otherwise you won't have room for much else on your roof. Especially if you fit a solar hot water system (which you should).

 

There's something to be said for steam power. In some parts of the country, wood is free, or very cheap. Steam engines are easy to make (I am told). All you need is a wide roof to store the wood.

A miniature steam turbine would be nice, driving a small 100- 200 watt alternator running 24/7, trickle charging silently.

[bizzard]

All steam engines which are (external combustion engines, 'ECE', the combustion taking place in the firebox of the separate boiler whether reciprocating or turbine. The boiler is the heart of a steam plant which takes up extra space, being a pressure vessel it needs vigilant maintenance careful handling and regular inspection and certification. But they are very very nice.

Edited August 16, 2013 by bizzard

[smileypete]

When you say 'all electric' most people tend to think 'gas free boat' which means a fairly modest lifestyle, or, deep pockets!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited August 17, 2013 by smileypete

[Tunneltug]

I know this is probably a bit late as I guess you're already sorted but reciprocating steam engines aren't very good at generating electricity. There are volumes of articles about it in the Steam Boat Associations magazine "The Funnel" they're basically too slow to make a decent alternator work properly and dynamos are a bit useless if you have a large capacity battery. Then of course you'd have to have a boiler and that's where the problems start. My boat Hasty's insurance is £600+/year because of boiler liability plus the obligatory annual boiler test at £400 and consumables of £100/year means the economy of free fuel is probably outweighed by the regulatory needs and costs