Is Red Diesel Legal?

[FORTUNATA]

Question: Is red Diesel legal for boat users? I understand this is agricultural fuel but not legal for vehicles. However, I don't know what the score is concerning boat-owners?

[Guest]

Question: Is red Diesel legal for boat users? I understand this is agricultural fuel but not legal for vehicles. However, I don't know what the score is concerning boat-owners?

For the time being yes.

[William Martin]

White diesel has a ROAD tax applied to its selling price - the supposed theory is that this tax goes to fund road development - though in reality it is a just another indirect tax, to go along with the highest direct taxes this country has ever seen.

 

Red diesel is intended for any oil burning that does not take place on public roads. The red is a dye to mark it as untaxed so revenue inspectors can spot a road vehicle fraudulently using it - even if you use only one tank in your car, the traces of red will still be in the tank months/years later. Apparently, tax inspectors hang aroung places like cattle markets looking for farmers running their cars on red- not sure if they target narrowboat marinas!

[gaggle]

Apparently, tax inspectors hang aroung places like cattle markets looking for farmers running their cars on red- not sure if they target narrowboat marinas!

increasingly i see sections of roads being cordened off and the revenue officers along with the police and work and pensions staff are in attendance.

fuel inspections by the taxman who then give way to the police for full checks on you and your vehichle re-tax mot and insurance and work and pensions then check if you are on benefits and your tax code status ect.

 

the use of computers allows your whole tax profile to be checked while the fuel is tested for red dye.

[Hairy-Neil]

Apparently, tax inspectors hang aroung places like cattle markets looking for farmers running their cars on red- not sure if they target narrowboat marinas!

 

A member of staff at a marina I used to use reckoned they sold more red into cans in the back of cars than to the boat trade.....

 

 

Red diesel is intended for any oil burning that does not take place on public roads.

 

Though white is only needed for propulsion.......Cab heaters are allowed to use red. There are exemptions too, mobile cranes for example are allowed to run on the road on red.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Hairy-Neil

[John Orentas]

They have had a purge on market traders in my area, they seal up to 100 vans into the market site and go through them all. Documentation, fuel and safety check any vans they don't like are impounded, some crushed.

 

DERV.......... Diesel Engined Road Vehicles. The original idea was that only they paid fuel tax. Fuel for other uses was died red and not subject to the tax.

[Mick and Pauline]

They have had a purge on market traders in my area, they seal up to 100 vans into the market site and go through them all. Documentation, fuel and safety check any vans they don't like are impounded, some crushed.

 

DERV.......... Diesel Engined Road Vehicles. The original idea was that only they paid fuel tax. Fuel for other uses was died red and not subject to the tax.

 

Hi,

 

While we are on about red diesel, I see that the Jersey Parliment are not going to accept any EU changes in red diesel tax for pleasure craft.

 

They have said that any EU increase in red diesel tax would have a detrimental effect on their island economy.

 

So at least somebody is looking at this from a business point of view and not from the point of view of just making the tax paperwork right.

 

M&P.

[GUMPY]

Hi,

 

While we are on about red diesel, I see that the Jersey Parliment are not going to accept any EU changes in red diesel tax for pleasure craft.

 

They have said that any EU increase in red diesel tax would have a detrimental effect on their island economy.

 

So at least somebody is looking at this from a business point of view and not from the point of view of just making the tax paperwork right.

 

 

Sensible move, I imagine that there will be lots of MoBo owners from the south coast going over to Jersey to fuel up. That will knock a big hole in the south coast marinas profits

 

 

J

[RobinR]

How wil the transition work? Will all red die need to be removed from the tank, pipes and engine before "D" day? Will there be a period of grace during which continual dilution will flush out virtually all traces of red? Will this be policed at the boat, with random inspections and as with cars, will boats found to be infringing the regulation be taken to the proverbial crusher - red diesel will continue to be available for the really determined and how will this work for shared ownership boats with say 12 (or even 24) owners or even hire boats. I know at least one outlet who will sell "burning oil" in 5 gallon jerry cans - burning oil is a lower grade heating oil and is effectively diesel, the higher grade heating oil being kerosene... and we all know how the effective is the "towpath telegraph"!!

Edited September 30, 2006 by RobinR

[Amicus]

increasingly i see sections of roads being cordened off and the revenue officers along with the police and work and pensions staff are in attendance.

fuel inspections by the taxman who then give way to the police for full checks on you and your vehichle re-tax mot and insurance and work and pensions then check if you are on benefits and your tax code status ect.

 

the use of computers allows your whole tax profile to be checked while the fuel is tested for red dye.

Way but, I was driving home from work tother day, in me white van, quiet dual carriageway. Police patrol car comes up behind and follows me for 7/8 minutes then clears off. I'm told, in that time they will have checked, address of keeper, insurance and MOT.

[bottle]

Way but, I was driving home from work tother day, in me white van, quiet dual carriageway. Police patrol car comes up behind and follows me for 7/8 minutes then clears off. I'm told, in that time they will have checked, address of keeper, insurance and MOT.

 

Still

 

Wouldn't take that long, you must have looked suspicious.

 

 

How wil the transition work? Will all red die need to be removed from the tank, pipes and engine before "D" day? Will there be a period of grace during which continual dilution will flush out virtually all traces of red? Will this be policed at the boat, with random inspections and as with cars, will boats found to be infringing the regulation be taken to the proverbial crusher - red diesel will continue to be available for the really determined and how will this work for shared ownership boats with say 12 (or even 24) owners or even hire boats. I know at least one outlet who will sell "burning oil" in 5 gallon jerry cans - burning oil is a lower grade heating oil and is effectively diesel, the higher grade heating oil being kerosene... and we all know how the effective is the "towpath telegraph"!!

 

Hi Robin

 

I don't think anyone knows how it will eventually happen because at the moment our government is supposed to be 'in a mind' to apply for the derogation to continue but don't hold your breath.

[RobinR]

Still

 

Wouldn't take that long, you must have looked suspicious.

Hi Robin

 

I don't think anyone knows how it will eventually happen because at the moment our government is supposed to be 'in a mind' to apply for the derogation to continue but don't hold your breath.

Hi Keith,

 

I know what is happening, but has anyone considered actual enforcement should this be necessary - you never know who may read this and start to think - oh sorry I used .....

[bottle]

I expect that it will come down to the 'Customs and Excise' men but do not know of any plans, as yet, as to how they will enforce it.

 

I have 'heard' but cannot confirm that it is almost imposssible to remove all traces of the red dye even with thorough cleaning of the tank, so this may cause a problem if true.

[John Orentas]

Unless you all know something I don't we are a long way from being compeled to use DERV, white fuel. No decision has been made on derogation. Certainly I don't believe anything will happen before the next general election, 3-4 years soonest.

Edited October 1, 2006 by John Orentas

[bottle]

 

Unless you all know something I don't we are a long way from having to use non DERV white fuel. No decision has been made on derogation. Certainly I don't believe anything will happen before the next general election, 3-4 years soonest.

 

John

 

You are right that no decision has been made but as I understand it if our government does not re-apply then by default derogation stops on January 1st 2007.

 

I may be wrong in this so wait for further confirmation.

[rayman]

I expect that it will come down to the 'Customs and Excise' men but do not know of any plans, as yet, as to how they will enforce it.

 

I have 'heard' but cannot confirm that it is almost imposssible to remove all traces of the red dye even with thorough cleaning of the tank, so this may cause a problem if true.

 

 

the customs knocked on my door at home,asked for my keys, tested my car, then drove it away due to having red in, 2days and £250 later, i got it back, 5 days later, i was pulled half a mile away from home by the exact same blokes and the police, originally for no seat belt, was retested for red, but was clean, no tank washing out, did,nt even change my filter. they let me go. The copper did me for no belt.

[Mick and Pauline]

the customs knocked on my door at home,asked for my keys, tested my car, then drove it away due to having red in, 2days and £250 later, i got it back, 5 days later, i was pulled half a mile away from home by the exact same blokes and the police, originally for no seat belt, was retested for red, but was clean, no tank washing out, did,nt even change my filter. they let me go. The copper did me for no belt.

 

Hi,

 

Bottle, I have been in contact with my MP and you are right about Jan 2007, if we do not make a good case for retention of the present level of red diesel tax, we will loose it in Jan 2007. You are also correct about the traceabilty of red diesel, it is not just the red in the diesel that is being checked, that is only a visual colour indicator. What you can not see is a marker that is added and is picked up by the HM Custom's instruments, it can pick down to a few parts per million.

 

Rayman, when you were pulled over the second time, it was pointless the HM Custom's checking your tank for the marker tracer, because it would still be there from your first offence and you had already paid the fine for your first offence. What they were doing was checking to make sure you had not gone back to using red diesel and for this they only needed a visual check, red coloured fuel in your tank or not.

 

So, if it doesn't go our way with the red diesel tax at the EU, it is going to be very difficult for HM Customs to police the new pleasure craft fuel. They would have to carry out spot checks on boats to see if the tank feeding the engine had a red coloured fuel in it, that is catch you red handed (sorry could restist it). The use of the HM Custom instruments for the marker checks would be pointless because it would present from using red diesel up to 2007.

 

In all cases like this HM Customs allow a period of time to introduce the new measures, when the new marker was brought in, it allowed six months for the fuel tanks to turn over the storage levels before starting checks with the end user. The biggest area for HM Custom checks will be with boatyards, they will be asked to provide documentation of fuel sales for each grade (Tax Level) of diesel they have sold ie how much white diesel for boat engines & how much red diesel for boat heating. A percentage will be applied, say, 80% white sales v 20% red sales to check if the boatyard is applying the new diesel fuel tax to their customers. This is the main reason that HM Custom's do not want the present red diesel tax to change because it will be very difficult to enforce and require extra staff to monitor the boatyards & boats.

 

Hope this helps. just hope it doesn't change and we stay the way we are.

 

M&P.

[bottle]

Thanks Mick, this confirms my thoughts.

 

I had forgtten about the 'marker'and it not being just the colour.

[Guest]

My recent email from EU re. red diesel:

 

"Dear Catweasel,

Thank you for your e-mail of 3 September 2006 which has been referred to this unit to reply to your question concerning taxation on red diesel in United Kingdom.

I would like to inform you that the general principle existing in the relevant Community legislation since 1993 is that fuel used in private pleasure navigation is subject to excise duty. However, United Kingdom was granted a derogation from the general provisions that allows it to apply, until the end of 2006, reduced rate of excise duty to fuels used in navigation in private pleasure craft.

Notwithstanding, United Kingdom may apply for an extension of the derogation duly supporting their request for specific policy considerations. Once the Commission receives the request, we will assess it taken into account all the arguments presented and the proper functioning of the internal market, the need to ensure fair competition as well as Community environment, energy and transport policies.

Anyway, we are very grateful to you for providing us so detailed information.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

T. CARROLL"

 

Fight the good fight etc, if we don't keep the pressure up NOW it will be lost FOR EVER. There is no time left for complacency. It is vital to lobby both M.Ps and Euro M.P.s now. To my amazement my Euro M.P. telephoned me one Sunday morning last year about the email I sent to him. He had no idea about the derogation coming to an end for inland craft and wanted loads of detail. Like me, he could not understand why an inland craft should pay taxation which is aimed at road use. He also accepted it would kill the industry.

Edited October 1, 2006 by Guest

[RobinR]

I expect that it will come down to the 'Customs and Excise' men but do not know of any plans, as yet, as to how they will enforce it.

 

I have 'heard' but cannot confirm that it is almost imposssible to remove all traces of the red dye even with thorough cleaning of the tank, so this may cause a problem if true.

 

A more significant factor may be their return for the time and effeort they will need to apply against the same return per unit cost when persuing use in road vehicles. A simple risk assessment may well confirm continued use of red in leasure boats is worthwhile especially hire / other multi user craft where the ofender may well be long gone and a specific level of dilution may be from a large input some time ago or a smaller one more recently! It may be a brave manager who comits resources to enforce this requirement! And what abour sea going craft entering inland waters who refueled where red diesel continues to be legitimately available?

[Guest]

A more significant factor may be their return for the time and effeort they will need to apply against the same return per unit cost when persuing use in road vehicles. A simple risk assessment may well confirm continued use of red in leasure boats is worthwhile especially hire / other multi user craft where the ofender may well be long gone and a specific level of dilution may be from a large input some time ago or a smaller one more recently! It may be a brave manager who comits resources to enforce this requirement! And what abour sea going craft entering inland waters who refueled where red diesel continues to be legitimately available?

indeed there are many points that will need to be considered.

[RobinR]

indeed there are many points that will need to be considered.

 

...or become true Europeans - ignore the new rules and carry on as before?

[Guest]

...or become true Europeans - ignore the new rules and carry on as before?

i think there is a great deal of that heppening with that part P electrical garbage.

[Mick and Pauline]

A more significant factor may be their return for the time and effeort they will need to apply against the same return per unit cost when persuing use in road vehicles. A simple risk assessment may well confirm continued use of red in leasure boats is worthwhile especially hire / other multi user craft where the ofender may well be long gone and a specific level of dilution may be from a large input some time ago or a smaller one more recently! It may be a brave manager who comits resources to enforce this requirement! And what abour sea going craft entering inland waters who refueled where red diesel continues to be legitimately available?

 

Hi RobinR,

 

It's not that straight forward, fuel to be used by inland or sea going craft.

The new tax change if it came in, would only effect "pleasure craft" that means any pleasure craft, sea going or inland that refuelled in the UK would have to pay the new tax from Jan 2007. This is why the island of Jersey is opting out, to encourage the sea going "pleasure boats" to refuel there instead of the UK. Even foreign sea going pleasure craft would have to pay full tax if refuelling in the UK, non EU craft would be able to claim the tax back.

 

The UK inland craft fuel market will become complicated because in areas of commercial craft, River Humber / River Trent and even on the Aire & Calder, red diesel will be legal for them but not the pleasure craft cruising with them. So in areas of heavy commercial craft use, there may be only red diesel available, this would not be suitable for pleasure craft use and they would have to look for another supply.

 

M&P.

[RobinR]

Hi RobinR,

 

It's not that straight forward, fuel to be used by inland or sea going craft.

The new tax change if it came in, would only effect "pleasure craft" that means any pleasure craft, sea going or inland that refuelled in the UK would have to pay the new tax from Jan 2007. This is why the island of Jersey is opting out, to encourage the sea going "pleasure boats" to refuel there instead of the UK. Even foreign sea going pleasure craft would have to pay full tax if refuelling in the UK, non EU craft would be able to claim the tax back.

 

The UK inland craft fuel market will become complicated because in areas of commercial craft, River Humber / River Trent and even on the Aire & Calder, red diesel will be legal for them but not the pleasure craft cruising with them. So in areas of heavy commercial craft use, there may be only red diesel available, this would not be suitable for pleasure craft use and they would have to look for another supply.

 

M&P.

 

... and of course there are still a few narrow boats which will continue to be classified as trading vessels - oh well we could always go over to (cleaned) used cooking oil from fish and chip shops etc! Apparently they'll give it away to save their waste disposal costs. Today I heard about a peson who ran an old Mercedes 180D on it for years without problems until customs asked for their cut, but did he pay for all he used?