New build advise

[TTtrad]

Are you saying YOU paid £1000 deposit and the balance on completion and all went well then?

 

If not, what were the payment terms of your build, as a satisfied customer who didn't get ripped off?

 

And how does speaking to the recent buyers/customers protect the OP from getting ripped off like older cutomers apparently were? What did YOU do to protect yourself from the risk?

 

MtB

 

(Edited to add the last para.)

 

 

Just the shell with no problems off Jonathan, not a complete boat, reading this thread I think the lady has not even spoke or discussed the fitout of the boat with Anthony "M" never mind contracts with him and payment details, rememember Tyler-Wilson is a completly seperate buisness then Anthony M's and all they do is supply shells even though they share the same boat yard.

Edited December 26, 2012 by TTtrad

[Gatesofrome]

The short answer is no, I can't see how a contract will protect you as you haven't bought anything until its complete. They could sell it to someone else or you could walk away and forfeit your deposit. There is nothing wrong with the offer it's a bit like the adverts for DFS offering you a sofa with no payment for 12m nothing Is free they just make a higher profit at the end. I would just wonder why they would choose to work for a year investing £100k of labour and materials for free on the offer of payment it's not something I would do. Who exactly will your contract be with Jonothan Wilson or the fitter I think from the above posts this makes quite a difference.

That seems so wrong if he ows people money, the law is an ass. Now ther is a question initaly we agreed the build with JW then JW did not have the space to build so TT is now building it, but he talked about AM agreeing the price with us, we do not have a copy of the contact yet still waiting to see this. I think that I am going to ask to have the agreement with TW boat builders as it seems like the best way to go, perhaps they can then get it fitted out by who ever they trust to do the work, this is just an idear not to sure if this way will be more secure or not, as in these times some of the biggest company's have gone out of business it is on the news every day it seems.

[johnthebridge]

I know this may be a stupid question but if builder goes back into business and seems to be doing well again can the people that are owed money claim it back now? Just to clarify we are not having the brigantine it is very similar but not the same. I wonder if I go back to them if they can give me the details of people that have recently got a boat from them, still from what is being said that is no re assurance that mine will not be the one that happens when they may go bankrupt. So I am thinking the contract may be the best thing to protect, or is this again me being stupid. Boat. Building should or should it not be like any legal contract?

 

May I gently suggest that you've asked for advice/opinion on here but, despite receiving several adverse comments about one of your proposed builders, you appear to be set in your actions? Why? A cynic might, at the very least, feel that your comments and questions on here appear to be derived from someone already convinced of Anthony M's "new" status.....

When looking at having a new boat some years ago,I met Mr. Wilson. Despite my not ordering from him, I felt he was very straight, forthright(to the point of bluntness, which I like) and possessed integrity. I cannot speak for Anthony M, but do feel the warnings about his past methods of conducting business (even if only partially true) would be more than enough to dissuade me from EVER entering into a contract with him.

Re-consider. There are literally scores of other boat-fitters around, and should you decide to have him do the steelwork, I'm sure Mr. Wilson could suggest someone.

When alarm bells ring, don't think-get out.

Edited December 26, 2012 by johnthebridge

[Gatesofrome]

You seem not to want to hear what many of us are trying to tell you about as forcefully as we can without actually going beyond what we can reasonably say on the forum.

 

It is a shame that one of our former long standing posters, (and someone who works for a well respected canal business), only appears rarely these days, because I doubt he would be as polite about Anthony M as we have been, (to put it mildly!....)

 

As you appear to have made up your mind, go ahead, and lets hope you survive the experience even though others in the past have lost thousands because of this guy - I really do give up, other than saying do a LOT more research, because that you have done so far doesn't seem to have told you a fraction about the possible pitfalls. Look for example on this forum for the very sad tales of user "Pav" who did all the right things to try and find a good established builder, with no bad history, but still saw his carefully selected one go down, taking tens of thousands of his money with him. I'm sure he thought he had the best contract he could, but ultimately it didn't help him one iota, and his boating dream was ultimately destroyed by the experience.

No final decision has been made yet that is why I AM reading this advise. We really want TW due to their reputation AM was the last min discovery we found out about about 4 days ago in fact, I have explained this previously so forgive me but we have set our hart on the boat by TW and I just need to find out about AM now I know about him. NO decision has been made yet, but looks like we need a new fitter. I know that I have been warned to have thik skin on here but some times to assume I am not taking the advice is NOT true, I have looked at everything! ! ,

[Gatesofrome]

Just the shell with no problems off Jonathan, not a complete boat, reading this thread I think the lady has not even spoke or discussed the fitout of the boat with Anthony "M" never mind contracts with him and payment details, rememember Tyler-Wilson is a completly seperate buisness then Anthony M's and all they do is supply shells even though they share the same boat yard.

 

I have spoken to A M but did not know who he was till 4 days ago! Only found out when I was told he was Anthoney M when I found the threads on the Internet when I tried to find his e-mail address. I did think that the build was all completed under TW boat builders as it was all agreed with them so as they have a good reputation initaly did not worry about who they were getting to do the fit out. Now I have been on here I will double check tha TW are who we are dealing with if not back to the drawing board and start surching again as no deposit has been paid yet there is nothing to loose?

Thankfully I came on here from my actions and have not got into anything yet I can not get out of as I have had some good advise.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Gatesofrome

[bottle]

It's been said many times, in many ways.

 

Tim Tyler, Jonathan Wilson....good decision

 

Anthony M.... do not go there.

[Gatesofrome]

It's been said many times, in many ways.

 

Tim Tyler, Jonathan Wilson....good decision

 

Anthony M.... do not go there.

I know and we are not, like I said if all is not as we want it we will go back to the drawing board but keep TW, both are very good and very easy to work with.

[TTtrad]

I have spoken to A M but did not know who he was till 4 days ago! Only found out when I was told he was Anthoney M when I found the threads on the Internet when I tried to find his e-mail address. I did think that the build was all completed under TW boat builders as it was all agreed with them so as they have a good reputation initaly did not worry about who they were getting to do the fit out. Now I have been on here I will double check tha TW are who we are dealing with if not back to the drawing board and start surching again as no deposit has been paid yet there is nothing to loose?

Thankfully I came on here from my actions and have not got into anything yet I can not get out of as I have had some good advise.

 

Have you had any FORMAL discussions with Tyler-Wilson as to what you want, shell/layout/fitout/paint etc and sat down and drawn plans up and ACTUALLY placed an order or are you just another potential customer to them? As I'm sure there would be a formal legal contract between yourself and Tyler-Wilson involved and deposits paid, stage payments discussed and final balance completion/delivery date given if you have actually placed an order as this is a long standing Narrowboat building company with an excellent reputation, so your contract wil be with them and not Anthony M who may indeed do the fitout but all monies will be paid to Tyler-Wilson whom you will have the contract with. As you say you have reserched this for the last two years, but you still seam very unsure as the procedures and to what you want. They probably deal with many people like yourself and alot of people who waste their time living the dream, so you need to start doing this on a formal basis and sit down with Tyler-Wilson and discuss these contracts and concerns to have peace of mind and not tie your head in knots on these forums.

Edited December 26, 2012 by TTtrad

[Gatesofrome]

Have you had any formal discussions with Tyler-Wilson as to what you want, shell/layout/fitout/paint etc and sat down and drawn plans up or are you just another potential customer to them? As I'm sure there would be a contract involved and deposits paid/stage payments dicussed and final balance completion/delivery date etc as this is a long standing Narrowboat building company with an excellent reputation, so your contract wil be with them and not Anthony M who may indeed do the fitout but all monies will be paid to Tyler-Wilson whom you will have the contract with.

We have had all the discussions with TW that you have mentioned and recived the plans, the build was due to start January but probably will be delayed as we need the contract and to pay the deposit. We have been to Sheffield a number of times then really at the last min AM has been talking to us re fit out, it is very iunclear as to who the contract is supposed to be with. We are going to wait till after Xmas and clarify some of the points on here, which is really helpful. We only want to pay TW due to the advise on here so will have to find a new fitter, unless TW are in control of the whole project , I think this seems the way to go.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Gatesofrome

[PaddingtonBear]

I note that TW recommend William Piper, comments please. That must undermine their cred. somewhat.

[TTtrad]

We have had all the discussions with TW that you have mentioned and recived the plans, the build was due to start January but probably will be delayed as we need the contract and to pay the deposit. We have been to Sheffield a number of times then really at the last min AM has been talking to us re fit out, it is very iunclear as to who the contract is supposed to be with. We are going to wait till after Xmas and clarify some of the points on here, which is really helpful. We only want to pay TW due to the advise on here so will have to find a new fitter, unless TW are in control of the whole project , I think this seems the way to go.

 

Hi

was amending the post as you answered, but you do need to discuss your concerns with Tyler-Wilson as your head will be totally scrambled listening to all the opinions on this forum, good luck

Edited December 26, 2012 by TTtrad

[dor]

It's been said many times, in many ways.

 

Tim Tyler, Jonathan Wilson....good decision

 

Anthony M.... do not go there.

 

I find it surprising that two reputable businesses like TT and JW would want to be associated with AM. It is bound to damage their reputation; and whilst there may be some naive buyers out there, more and more will find out about AM and steer well clear of anything to do with him.

[alan_fincher]

I note that TW recommend William Piper, comments please. That must undermine their cred. somewhat.

Yes didn't spot that!

 

For information of the original poster, William Piper, one of 9 recommended fitters on the Tyler Wilson web-site also went under quite a number of months back.

 

Proof I suppose that a recommendation for a boat fitter from an established and well regarded shell builder is in itself not enough to ensure you are protected for the whole thing.

[John Holden]

 

For information of the original poster, William Piper, one of 9 recommended fitters on the Tyler Wilson web-site also went under quite a number of months back.

 

 

I suggest that the TW website is not up to date, the link to William Piper is dead.

[Biggles]

I think that it's simply a case of very good craftsmen with very, very poor business skills that's to blame rather than the intent to swindle anyone.

 

I think that it's simply a case of very good craftsmen with very, very poor business skills that's to blame rather than the intent to swindle anyone.

[alan_fincher]

I think that it's simply a case of very good craftsmen with very, very poor business skills that's to blame rather than the intent to swindle anyone.

Depends on how you define "very, very poor business skills" versus "the intent to swindle anyone", I guess?

 

Frankly if you are in business continuing to take a customers money when you know you will not be supplying what the customer thinks they are paying for I think it quickly moves from "very, very poor business skills" and becomes "the intent to swindle".

 

And let us not forget suppliers from whom they knowingly take goods or services, knowing that those suppliers will never get paid.

 

You can dress it up in any language you like, I suppose?

 

I suggest that the TW website is not up to date, the link to William Piper is dead.

Yes I think that is the point PB is making.

[John Holden]

I think that it's simply a case of very good craftsmen with very, very poor business skills that's to blame rather than the intent to swindle anyone.

 

I think that it's simply a case of very good craftsmen with very, very poor business skills that's to blame rather than the intent to swindle anyone.

 

Agreed

 

Agreed

 

Depends on how you define "very, very poor business skills" versus "the intent to swindle anyone", I guess?

 

Frankly if you are in business continuing to take a customers money when you know you will not be supplying what the customer thinks they are paying for I think it quickly moves from "very, very poor business skills" and becomes "the intent to swindle".

 

And let us not forget suppliers from whom they knowingly take goods or services, knowing that those suppliers will never get paid.

 

You can dress it up in any language you like, I suppose?

 

 

Yes I think that is the point PB is making.

 

The very poor business skills might extend to believing that you can work your way through a crisis without any intent to swindle.

[Biggles]

Agreed.

 

It's what I'd like to believe.

[Fred_Smith]

What you have at the Sheffield premises of Tyler Wilson is a hull fabrication business based round two large buildings, all very professional and well established. I would guess up to 6 hulls at at time are being produced. They don't do fit outs to my knowledge. Their site is canal side and Antony M fits out shells on the canal side within the TW site. AM has no premises, I assume he is a tenant of TW. AM has what looks like a lean too temporary shed that houses his work bench and materials adjacent to the canal edge where the boat is being fitted. All very cheap and cheerful and not permanent. I doubt if there is any relationship TW with AM but would guess that if you wanted a fit out then its up to you to independently discuss this with AM

[Chris Pink]

I wonder what the detractors believe that Anthony M should do with the rest of his life if they don't think he should work at his trade.

[dor]

I wonder what the detractors believe that Anthony M should do with the rest of his life if they don't think he should work at his trade.

Surely if it's his business skill that are lacking but his woodworking skills are good, the obvious thing is he carries on his trade as an employee of someone who does know how to run a business.

 

[alan_fincher]

I wonder what the detractors believe that Anthony M should do with the rest of his life if they don't think he should work at his trade.

I have no problem with him working at his trade.

 

I do have a problem with businesses being able to collapse and write off their debts only for a similarly named business to later arise Phoenix like from the ashes.

 

As you know Chris there are several people trading within the waterways arena who have been able to get away with doing this multiple times, with a new set of losers each time they go under. How many attempts should someone be allowed at setting up in the same line of business, just because it is "their trade", even if they have demonstrated themselves unable to stay solvent, if it is their business?

 

I admit I don't know the exact current status of Anthony M, but his web-site would appear to show that it is again his business. I had understood that he was still working somewhere, but for somebody else. That would be my strong preference, I'll freely admit, simply to reduce the chances of further failures that he is just able to walk away from.

[John Holden]

Surely if it's his business skill that are lacking but his woodworking skills are good, the obvious thing is he carries on his trade as an employee of someone who does know how to run a business.

 

Surely if he's an undischarged bankrupt, working for somebody else is his only option?

[dor]

Surely if he's an undischarged bankrupt, working for somebody else is his only option?

 

That's the theory, but as we all know there are many ways round it.

[John Holden]

Surely if he's an undischarged bankrupt, working for somebody else is his only option?

 

That's the theory, but as we all know there are many ways round it.

 

But has the person in question a history of law breaking?