Coulter

[poppetman]

Just seen one up for sale on Apolloduck (2009 build) with 1957 Perkins engine for £50K Looks really nice

Anyone got any info on them?

 

poppetman

New Member (be nice!)

 

 

Posts: 1

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:23 am

Fav. Canal: Grand Union

Experience: Small Amount!

[Tony Brooks]

Just seen one up for sale on Apolloduck (2009 build) with 1957 Perkins engine for £50K Looks really nice

Anyone got any info on them?

 

poppetman

New Member (be nice!)

 

 

Posts: 1

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:23 am

Fav. Canal: Grand Union

Experience: Small Amount!

 

 

I'd be wary of that engine and budget for a replacement.

 

 

I am not aware of any Perkins engines that fit the "trad engine" mould and if 1957 is correct I suspect spares for a 50 year old engine might be a bit difficult.

[alan_fincher]

Only quick comment I can make is on Perkins P3.

 

It's a nice engine, but even in the 1970s, when I had one, some spares were hard to source, so I imagine it could be a lot harder now ?

 

IIRC there were two models, which were something like P3-144, and P3-152, (a slightly different cylinder size, I think). The lower number one is the earlier, and was, back then, I think harder to source bits for, (I think there were other differences that made a lot of things model specific).

 

All this is trying to take my memory back nearly 40 years, so I may be remembering wrong, but do some careful research before getting involved with a P3.

 

Nice engines though they are, they seem a slightly unusual thing to have fitted to a 2 or 3 year old modern build leisure boat. They need room to swing a biggish prop, and hence need a reasonably deep swim, and hence reasonably deep draught. Connected to (say) the 17" prop typical on boats of this size, and if the swim is less than a couple of feet deep, you will probably not get the best out of it.

[alan_fincher]

I am not aware of any Perkins engines that fit the "trad engine" mould and if 1957 is correct I suspect spares for a 50 year old engine might be a bit difficult.

Tony,

 

The P3 is a reasonably slow revving engine, I think used a fair bit in tractors, and somewhere around 30 BHP, with a fair bit of torque.

 

It has been quite successfully used in carrying boats in the past, and certainly I know of boats doing coal runs in the 1970s where this engine performed well.

 

I don't know how accurate a Wikipedia page on the topic might be, but that suggests build dates from November 1953 to March 1967.

 

Three-cylinder diesel engine. Engine serial is a seven digit number beginning with 1000251. 67,433 engines were produced. Uses a timing chain.

 

I totally agree about spares, even though this is claimed as fully recondition. If it is indeed 1957, I rather suspect it may be the (I believe) P3-144, and if so a lot of parts for that were hard to source over 35 years ago!

[Tony Brooks]

Tony,

 

The P3 is a reasonably slow revving engine, I think used a fair bit in tractors, and somewhere around 30 BHP, with a fair bit of torque.

 

It has been quite successfully used in carrying boats in the past, and certainly I know of boats doing coal runs in the 1970s where this engine performed well.

 

I don't know how accurate a Wikipedia page on the topic might be, but that suggests build dates from November 1953 to March 1967.

 

 

 

I totally agree about spares, even though this is claimed as fully recondition. If it is indeed 1957, I rather suspect it may be the (I believe) P3-144, and if so a lot of parts for that were hard to source over 35 years ago!

 

 

I had thought about a P3 but know very little about them. In fact I think I have only ever seen one which was in something odd. If - and its a big if - it was in an old Jensen owned by a dentist so must have been a conversion.

 

I still think its a very odd combination and would not touch it personally with a barge pole. If the about 30bhp thing is correct then I would question its suitability on a wide beam for river use - even if it is very torquey. The combination would make me wonder about the possibility of other unusual choices in the fitout. Pity there is no link given so we could easily have a better look.

[Speedwheel]

The P3 is a reasonably slow revving engine, I think used a fair bit in tractors, and somewhere around 30 BHP, with a fair bit of torque.

 

When mum had Badsey and Barnes I think Badsey had a Perkins P2 in it (might be wrong it could have been a P3) and it propelled them along ok, so I'm told.

[Proper Job]

PM ChrisB

 

I'm pretty sure that Baldock had Perkins P3.

 

Or try the new owner - Whitewater (although I believe he's looking for a twin pot National).

[alan_fincher]

When mum had Badsey and Barnes I think Badsey had a Perkins P2 in it (might be wrong it could have been a P3) and it propelled them along ok, so I'm told.

P3, I believe. They certainly were up to pushing a loaded pair in normal conditions. Bicester had one too, I think. But probably need to swing a bigger prop than would go under a modern shallow draughted boats back end. This is the issue that my old "Kerbau" had. Massively under-propped at (I think) 17" x 17", so the engine had to run unnecessarily fast, and hence was not very economical on fuel. If this boat is swinging a big prop, it may be fine, otherwise probably not a terribly suitable engine, IMO.

 

PM ChrisB

 

I'm pretty sure that Baldock had Perkins P3.

 

Or try the new owner - Whitewater (although I believe he's looking for a twin pot National).

I believe Baldock had a D3. Maybe a close relative, I really don't know, but I think a later engine. Again I would suggest that is probably through bigger blades than can be put on many modern build leisure boats.

Edited January 27, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Proper Job]

............

 

I believe Baldock had a D3. Maybe a close relative, I really don't know, but I think a later engine. Again I would suggest that is probably through bigger blades than can be put on many modern build leisure boats.

Yep, you're right Alan. I'm getting my alphabet mixed up. Baldock is a D3

[Mick_B]

ETA cause I'm an idiot!!!!

Edited January 27, 2012 by Mick_B

[Proper Job]

ETA cause I'm an idiot!!!!

I think you're getting confused

 

That's Alnwick with a Kelvin K3

[bargemast]

Those 3 cylinder Perkins engines were used for gen-sets, tractors, marine use, and lots of other purposes, they were known as a reliable power plant.

 

The size of a prop is also dependent on the gearbox ratio, and the prop itself like pitch and number of blades to get the power to the water, without needing extra deep draft.

 

Here is a video of a nicely running 3 cylinder after an overhaul.

 

 

Peter.

Edited January 27, 2012 by bargemast

[NB Willawaw]

and a K9 is a dog.

[alan_fincher]

The size of a prop is also dependent on the gearbox ratio, and the prop itself like pitch and number of blades to get the power to the water, without needing extra deep draft.

Yes, but........

 

The add says it has a PRM160 VR2 gearbox. Not sure if that means 2:1 reduction, but as the 160 is very similar to the 260, which I think comes in broadly 2:1 and 3:1 ratios, it is very unlikely, I suggest, that this motor is coupled to a PRM box with anything significantly less than a 2:1 reduction. (I don't think you get direct drive PRM boxes, or do you ?).

 

If it is at least 2:1 the biggest diameter and biggest pitched prop that will go under a modern shallow swimmed boat will not really be suitable. I can attest to having a P3 on a 2:1 box with a 17" x 17" prop, and IMO that prop was far too small, and unless it is a deep draughted boat, you may struggle to fit a bigger one.

 

So I stand by all the remarks I've already made. If this engine has a PRM box, and isn't swinging a significantly larger set of blades than I had, it will not be using the engine in a very sensible way.

 

The OP really should check this point, or if allowed a test run see how many RPM the engine needs to run at to achieve a good speed. If that's (say) 1000 rpm, it will probably be fine, but if you say need 1500 rpm to make good progress, I'd walk away......

 

Thinking about it another way, the power characteristics of a Perkins P3 may not be radically different from Sickle's Lister HA3. (probably 30HP for the P3, 33HP for the HA3). I suspect max intended revs for each is circa 2000rpm. Sickle is actually over-propped on a 2:1 reduction box, but if it had the biggest blades you could put under a typical modern leisure boat they would be seriously too small. Like only "sweeping" about half the area that is probably ideal. It would simply be wrong in such a boat.

[Mick_B]

I think you're getting confused

 

That's Alnwick with a Kelvin K3

I know. I'm just thick I guess and so slow that you saw it before I could edit when I realised. My bad. I just dream about Alnwick all the time.

 

"If you go down to the woods today......"

 

 

[poppetman]

Thanks for the feedback folks---I've really started something here it seems!

Here's the link to the ad Tony.

 

http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=233845

 

Poppetman

[Proper Job]

A perkins P3 is 34hp @ 2000 rpm. The D3 is 39 @2000.

 

IIRC the only PRM's that come in 1:1 are 500's, 750's & 1000's.

 

I was talking to a bloke at PRM a few years back and they were testing a PRM 260 with a 1:1 ratio. Not sure what happened with it as it would be a perfect box for older < 1500 rpm engines

[Tony Fuller]

Perkins P3 engines (AD152) were used extensively in Massey Fergusson MF35 & MF135 Tractors in the 1960's & 1970's. Due to the interest in restoring old tractors virtually all the spare parts (mostly made in Turkey) are available at realistic prices. Just look in Vintage Tractor Magazines (on the shelf in Smiths or other newsagents)for details of spares suppliers.

Tony

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks for the feedback folks---I've really started something here it seems!

Here's the link to the ad Tony.

 

http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=233845

 

Poppetman

 

 

Thanks - had a look.

 

Personally those diagonal planked cabin sides would drive me nuts.

 

It seems to have been built to a good spec. but I note that one of the most vital specifications for a boat with this amount of mains equipment is missing. That is the alternator and charging system data. I think it would be fine whilst you are on landline but suspect the during cruising you may run into battery problems unless at least three mains electrical items mentioned are taken out of use.

[bargemast]

Yes, but........

 

The add says it has a PRM160 VR2 gearbox. Not sure if that means 2:1 reduction, but as the 160 is very similar to the 260, which I think comes in broadly 2:1 and 3:1 ratios, it is very unlikely, I suggest, that this motor is coupled to a PRM box with anything significantly less than a 2:1 reduction. (I don't think you get direct drive PRM boxes, or do you ?).

 

If it is at least 2:1 the biggest diameter and biggest pitched prop that will go under a modern shallow swimmed boat will not really be suitable. I can attest to having a P3 on a 2:1 box with a 17" x 17" prop, and IMO that prop was far too small, and unless it is a deep draughted boat, you may struggle to fit a bigger one.

 

So I stand by all the remarks I've already made. If this engine has a PRM box, and isn't swinging a significantly larger set of blades than I had, it will not be using the engine in a very sensible way.

 

The OP really should check this point, or if allowed a test run see how many RPM the engine needs to run at to achieve a good speed. If that's (say) 1000 rpm, it will probably be fine, but if you say need 1500 rpm to make good progress, I'd walk away......

 

Thinking about it another way, the power characteristics of a Perkins P3 may not be radically different from Sickle's Lister HA3. (probably 30HP for the P3, 33HP for the HA3). I suspect max intended revs for each is circa 2000rpm. Sickle is actually over-propped on a 2:1 reduction box, but if it had the biggest blades you could put under a typical modern leisure boat they would be seriously too small. Like only "sweeping" about half the area that is probably ideal. It would simply be wrong in such a boat.

 

 

I didn't see the ad until now, but if you can't get the power to the water with a 2 : 1 box and a 3 bladed prop, there's always a 4 blader, on the bigger barges on the continent, they use 7 bladed props to get an acceptable diameter, they would have to be probably at least 2 the diameter to tranfer the same thrust if they had only 3 blades.

 

Peter.

[poppetman]

It seems Coulter often fit vintage engines to new boats, see here: http://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/2018.aspx

I've been trying to find a contact number for them but the only one I found didn't work. They don't have a strong internet presence.

Does anyone out there know how to get in touch with them?

 

Cheers,

Pop