Alternative Emergency no. 112

[mayalld]

As a First Aid instructor we have been pushing the use of 112 for a while, especially in the more remote areas where "roaming" is sometimes the only way to get a signal. I have needed to use it and can confirm it does work.

 

In which case, you have been pushing snake oil.

 

999 and 112 are both EQUALLY effective when it comes to making a roamed call. The suggestion that 112 will roam but 999 will not is UTTER CRAP.

[Gibbo]

Anyone?

 

Quick point. Couple of years ago we phoned an ambulance from the boat and gave them long and lat. Emergency services said that was no use to them whatsoever and they needed a post code. Has something changed?

[twbm]

Anyone?

 

Yup - the C&C systems in use, certainly in police forces, use gazeteers that assume everywhere has a postcode or at least a road name. Fine for buildings with letterboxes but crap for bridges on canals, beauty spot car parks etc etc. Some of the mapping systems can cope with long/lat or OS Grid being typed in to a search box, others can't. Few of the staff are orienteers in their spare time so are not familiar with anything other than the information supplied with 99.9% of their calls.

 

Going back to my post about PLB's becoming deregulated, this is one of the issues being considered - there are solutions, but they require the throwing of money that's not there at the moment.

[Gibbo]

Yup - the C&C systems in use, certainly in police forces, use gazeteers that assume everywhere has a postcode or at least a road name. Fine for buildings with letterboxes but crap for bridges on canals, beauty spot car parks etc etc. Some of the mapping systems can cope with long/lat or OS Grid being typed in to a search box, others can't. Few of the staff are orienteers in their spare time so are not familiar with anything other than the information supplied with 99.9% of their calls.

 

Going back to my post about PLB's becoming deregulated, this is one of the issues being considered - there are solutions, but they require the throwing of money that's not there at the moment.

 

So having long and lat from a GPS is actually no use?

[twbm]

Think I may have just have saved everyone a lot of money ... Google Maps take Eastings and Northings it seems .....

 

So having long and lat from a GPS is actually no use?

 

As things stand I'd have to say your might be disappointed with the reaction you got from the emergency services, at least in more urban areas. I suspect from previous posts you'd be on familiar ground.

[JennyM]

This has developed into a much more complicated topic from my first posting.... but I´ve learnt a lot (I think )

 

The authorities I fear are not singing off the same song sheet either. I've requested clarification from the East Midland Ambulance Service (as they have plenty of canals ). Will wait to see if they answer, when they do I'll let you know their answer - have already received receipt of my email.

 

Scouring the net for info, there was a heated discussion on a horsey forum, the poster was informing that she had been on a safety course conducted by the Wiltshire Police. They had told her to use the 112 to locate her. Result was that one of the forum posters was going to make a complaint against the police trainer.

 

Money is short all around, therefore if we can help the emergency services to provide a good service by us helping ourselves - it will be a win win.

 

So for now, being careful to chart movements via OS maps,latitude points and possibly postcodes (mooring up at pubs every night would be good - postcodes can be got from the internet).

 

Thanks everyone for your kind responses - still digesting them

Edited July 13, 2011 by JennyM

[Robbo]

So for now, being careful to chart movements via OS maps,latitude points and possibly postcodes (mooring up at pubs every night would be good - postcodes can be got from the internet).

 

Google maps on the iPhone (and I presume Android) will show you your current location with most of the postcode and nearest road. You need a data connection though.

[Graham Davis]

In which case, you have been pushing snake oil.

 

999 and 112 are both EQUALLY effective when it comes to making a roamed call. The suggestion that 112 will roam but 999 will not is UTTER CRAP.

 

I can sight you at least three examples of where 999 was tried on several phones, all showing NO signal, which got a nil response from any network, but when 112 was used connection was made. I don't know why, but it did!

On these grounds I shall ignore you usual rudeness and shall continue advising people that they should use both numbers.

[Graham Davis]

There does indeed to be discrepencies or difference between different Police/Fire/Ambulance services over their useage of either post code or map reference. Around here a post code could easily cover 40 or 50 square miles, and I'm sure the same applies in other less well populated areas, but go into the nearest town and a post code may well only include 20 houses.

 

As I said previously there has been a large exercise with the local Young Farmers coordinated with the Emergency Services in this area to provide all remote dwellings with their map references if they ever need to call them. I also know from our (see banner below) dealings with them we have always used the same coordinates. Certainly when I have had to deal with the Air Ambulance to a remote shout they have asked for the MR of both the incident and a landing site, if that was seperate. I also know that the County Council Emergency Response Team here also use MR's to deal with problems, as that is invariably what we are given when we are called out by them

 

I know that the local 999 Centre don't really care what number you ring on; they just want to know that they are needed and will respond to both.

[JennyM]

Thanks Graham, appreciate your info.

 

Map references it is!

 

I'm not paranoid, just that this posting started with a bit of information on my part - but has grown to something that has sprouted lots of avenues. Have learnt a lot, thanks all!

[mayalld]

I can sight you at least three examples of where 999 was tried on several phones, all showing NO signal, which got a nil response from any network, but when 112 was used connection was made. I don't know why, but it did!

On these grounds I shall ignore you usual rudeness and shall continue advising people that they should use both numbers.

 

 

Your can ignore whatever you want, but the simple fact is that you are wrong.

 

112 and 999 are technically identical in all respects.

 

In a case that you can cite, somebody got lucky, doubtless because they moved slightly between calls 3 and 4, not because they changed the number used.

 

You would be far better to advise people that if they get no connection, they should move to a different location and try again.

 

You can characterise my refusal to accept your tales of what has happened to you as trumping the known technical facts as rudeness if you wish. If I was actually rude, I would call you names for your refusal to accept that your anecdotes are not proof of what you claim.

[Gibbo]

I absolutely know for a fact that a mobile phone, with no sim card in it, can successfully dial 999. I know this because one of my daughters did it on a mobile I had given them to play with (they were 3 and 4 years old at the time). I have no idea about whether it works when there's no network coverage for a given sim but I suspect, on these grounds, it would still work.

[carlt]

What about if you dial 911?

[JennyM]

I've requested clarification from the East Midland Ambulance Service (as they have plenty of canals ). Will wait to see if they answer, when they do I'll let you know their answer - have already received receipt of my email.

 

 

Today I have received a reply from Phil Morris, Communications Manager, East Midland NHS

 

In answer to your questions:

 

If the call is made via a land line we automatically receive CLI (Call Line Identification) data. This includes the phone number, the subscribers name and the address.

 

In certain circumstances it may not be possible for the caller to correctly identify the location of the emergency. For example, when cruising on a narrow boat, in unfamiliar territory, at night time, driving in a remote area etc.

 

In these instances, the caller is most likely to be using a mobile phone. When a 999 call is received from a mobile phone we are passed the co-ordinates the mobile phone provider believes the call is being made from. These co-ordinates are plotted automatically onto a map and matched to our address gazetteer as 'general area of x', x being the nearest address to the co-ordinate. It should be noted however that the co-ordinates are not always accurate as they depend on triangulation of signals. Generally in built up areas the location calculated is more accurate than in more rural parts. For this reason, our 999 call handlers are trained to use the automatic plotting of mobile phones as a guide and to supplement this with questioning techniques to fine-tune the caller’s location e.g. asking them whether they can see any landmarks, prominent features, roads, railways etc.

 

In addition to the methods mentioned, we are also able to make use of O/S grid references. So, if the caller is doing something requiring the use of an O/S map e.g. hill walking, they can use this to help us locate their exact position.

 

In reply I've thanked him and asked another question: Is there any difference between a 999 call and a 112?

 

Waiting for a reply.....

 

What about if you dial 911?

 

Damn it.... why are things so complicated

[Graham Davis]

Mayalld.

No-one moved more than 5 metres, since we were all at the scene of an RTC on the road between Staylittle and Dylife (look it up on Google Maps!) This is an area that is well known locally as having NO mobile coverage, for several miles in all direction. 999 was tried by several of us but didn't work, but when 112 was dialled we got a very poor but adequate reception.

 

Unfortunately, in the type of situations I teach about, moving to another position is often impractical or even impossible, and getting to an area that does have mobile coverage could involve some distance.

 

I shall continue to lecture the use of both numbers, no matter what you say. The Emergency Services have seen and heard all our lectures and have NEVER criticised or corrected the information about the number useage.

 

And the use of "utter crap" about me is extremely rude. You know nothing of me or the background to our lectures, but looking at past threads here this was typical of your attitude.

[Robbo]

I absolutely know for a fact that a mobile phone, with no sim card in it, can successfully dial 999. I know this because one of my daughters did it on a mobile I had given them to play with (they were 3 and 4 years old at the time). I have no idea about whether it works when there's no network coverage for a given sim but I suspect, on these grounds, it would still work.

 

Correct, a GSM phone can dial emergency numbers without a SIM card (they won't be able to dial you back though as you won't have a number!). A phone without a SIM card will display no service though, although indeed there is infact a mobile network to connect to, and this is what is happening if your on say O2 but out of range of any O2 towers so showing no service, but your in range of another network.

 

The only difference between 999 and 112 is 887, apart from that (and 112 works all over the EU) there is no difference.

[mayalld]

Mayalld.

No-one moved more than 5 metres, since we were all at the scene of an RTC on the road between Staylittle and Dylife (look it up on Google Maps!) This is an area that is well known locally as having NO mobile coverage, for several miles in all direction. 999 was tried by several of us but didn't work, but when 112 was dialled we got a very poor but adequate reception.

 

Unfortunately, in the type of situations I teach about, moving to another position is often impractical or even impossible, and getting to an area that does have mobile coverage could involve some distance.

 

I shall continue to lecture the use of both numbers, no matter what you say. The Emergency Services have seen and heard all our lectures and have NEVER criticised or corrected the information about the number useage.

 

And the use of "utter crap" about me is extremely rude. You know nothing of me or the background to our lectures, but looking at past threads here this was typical of your attitude.

 

Clearly, there is some patchy mobile coverage there, or you wouldn't have got through on any number, unless you are claiming that 112 makes phones switch into some previously unknown mode of operation that works without the aid of a GSM network.

 

No-one moved more than 5 metres. Neither did they stay absolutely still, They happened to move into a position where there was a weak signal. End of story. The number dialed was NOT the cause of this happening.

 

Has it occured to you that the people from the emergency services are experts on providing that service, not on mobile telecoms infrastructure, and that they haven't the slightest clue whether what you are saying is true or not.

 

And I haven't used the term "utter crap" about YOU, I have used it to describe the misinformation that you are peddling. I describe it as crap, because it is crap.

 

I haven't used any particular terminology about YOU.

[Robbo]

Mayalld.

No-one moved more than 5 metres, since we were all at the scene of an RTC on the road between Staylittle and Dylife (look it up on Google Maps!) This is an area that is well known locally as having NO mobile coverage, for several miles in all direction. 999 was tried by several of us but didn't work, but when 112 was dialled we got a very poor but adequate reception.

 

112 and 999 are handled the same by the networks, but you need network coverage - but this can be any network not just the one your own. See my explanation above of why your phone can say no-service but you can get through to the emergency services.

 

No-one moved more than 5 metres. Neither did they stay absolutely still, They happened to move into a position where there was a weak signal. End of story. The number dialed was NOT the cause of this happening.

 

And also holding the phone makes a difference to the signal, the antennas tend to be at the bottom so if your in a weak signal area holding it at the top may help....

Edited July 14, 2011 by Robbo

[Graham Davis]

Mayalld,

you are obviously an expert in this field. What qualification do you hold?

[JennyM]

Moderators: I can't see it in the forum's rules, but if I am breaking a rule about posting a link re another forum, then sorry, please delete it. (The link is not boat related).

 

It is no wonder we are having arguments discussions re the difference between 999 and 112 numbers. So are the police!

 

If you have the time, it's worth it to read how Special Constables are confused too....

 

Here's the link

Edited July 14, 2011 by JennyM

[mayalld]

Mayalld,

you are obviously an expert in this field. What qualification do you hold?

 

The ability to read and understand technical specifications, and the ability to understand where a conclusion from empirical evidence may be flawed.

 

As such, I am clearly better qualified than you to comment on this question.

[Robbo]

If you have the time, it's worth it to read how Special Constables are confused too....

 

Specials are always confused cause there just special.

[Graham Davis]

The ability to read and understand technical specifications, and the ability to understand where a conclusion from empirical evidence may be flawed.

 

As such, I am clearly better qualified than you to comment on this question.

 

 

I see; none at all.

I shall continue following the advice from the Comms Engineers of the various bodies then.

[Robbo]

You be glad to know that Ford are enabling in their cars (I only know they are in the US) automatically calling 911 and forwarding the GPS location in the event of a accident. You can stop the call taking place or talk to the operator..

 

Looks like this is been pushed in the EU as well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall

[JennyM]

Further to post above:

 

My question has been answered by Phil Morris, Comms Manager, East Midlands NHS:

 

There is no difference. 112 can be used throughout Europe whereas 999 is UK only.