bancrupt

[anhar]

Yes Phil

 

It's so tempting to say things that would probably not be a very good move in the long run!

 

But we can still offer a bit of what I hope is good advice along the way.

 

Cheers

 

Gary

Hello Gary and Phil

 

As someone looking for a new boat, I'm pretty disturbed by the sort of cryptic mysterious comments you've both made about dodgy builders on the verge of bankruptcy and/or known for poor quality work but you're not willing to name names here. I understand the reasons behind your reluctance to do so, but how does it help us hapless boat buyers on the forum to suggest that you are privy to such knowledge but you aint telling?

 

I don't know about other readers but I find this highly frustrating. Now when I consider a builder, I'm wondering whether they're on the PhilGary list.

 

regards

Steve

Edited January 14, 2006 by anhar

[bottle]

Those 'in the trade' will always have insider knowledge that the general public are not privy too.

 

All we can do is be more vigilant in our dealings with any trader but unfortunately they are not all honest.

 

Checks can be made on companies. time consuming but maybe worth it.

 

 

It has been said many times 'caveat emptor'

[anhar]

Those 'in the trade' will always have insider knowledge that the general public are not privy too.

 

All we can do is be more vigilant in our dealings with any trader but unfortunately they are not all honest.

 

Checks can be made on companies. time consuming but maybe worth it.

It has been said many times 'caveat emptor'

I have no quarrel with your comments Bottle, but my point was that it doesn't help us for Gary and Phil to come on here and say that they know of certain builders to be avoided. No doubt there always were and always will be and I know that as a generality.

 

However it is the fact of being told here by a couple of people in the trade that there are specific but unnamed builders in that position that I find very frustrating. Not the same as the general knowledge that there are always rogue builders around etc.

 

regards

Steve

[bottle]

I have no quarrel with your comments Bottle, but my point was that it doesn't help us for Gary and Phil to come on here and say that they know of certain builders to be avoided. No doubt there always were and always will be and I know that as a generality.

 

However it is the fact of being told here by a couple of people in the trade that there are specific but unnamed builders in that position that I find very frustrating. Not the same as the general knowledge that there are always rogue builders around etc.

 

regards

Steve

 

Hi Steve

 

I agree it is frustrating but I can't think of a way round it.

[Phil Speight]

Hello Gary and Phil

 

As someone looking for a new boat, I'm pretty disturbed by the sort of cryptic mysterious comments you've both made about dodgy builders on the verge of bankruptcy and/or known for poor quality work but you're not willing to name names here. I understand the reasons behind your reluctance to do so, but how does it help us hapless boat buyers on the forum to suggest that you are privy to such knowledge but you aint telling?

 

I don't know about other readers but I find this highly frustrating. Now when I consider a builder, I'm wondering whether they're on the PhilGary list.

 

regards

Steve

I`d love to be more helpful , I really would . It`s difficult though to be openly critical , or even damning , about people with whom we have to work and share an industry without being unethical and possibly prejudicing our own businesses . I for one can only comment on boats of which I have had personal experience . And even then some would argue it`s only a painter`s opinion . If someone was to ask me if they should go to particular builder/fitter the answer would be either "yes" , "I dont know" , or "why not try so and so as well" - all dependant on budget . I`m not likely to say "Don`t go near him he`s a rogue " let alone write it down . You would have to try reading between the lines . Like I said before , look for a good reputation , a waiting list and a good track record , hear what other owners have to say but beware those who`ve backed themselves into a corner by either spending too much or joining an owner`s club . They will always find it harder to be honest .

If you really don`t know which way to turn you`re welcome to my opinion , in private , within the above limitations !

Cheers

Phil

 

I have no quarrel with your comments Bottle, but my point was that it doesn't help us for Gary and Phil to come on here and say that they know of certain builders to be avoided. No doubt there always were and always will be and I know that as a generality.

 

However it is the fact of being told here by a couple of people in the trade that there are specific but unnamed builders in that position that I find very frustrating. Not the same as the general knowledge that there are always rogue builders around etc.

 

regards

Steve

Hmm - I`m not good at this computer thing - I`ve just replied to another posting when perhaps here would have been more germaine to the discussion . However - it`s there somewhere!

Phil

[DHutch]

We already have a wonderfull boat, the hull of which was built with (as far as i know) no more than the usall problems you get from a one-off build. And it certainly holding together just fine. (and it almost didnt leak!)

 

However, if at any time i was looking to get a new boat built, one of the first thing i would do is go a talk, im person, to people like gary, phill, and other people who have experence of this area.

- Like when our washing machine finally pack up (after 18 years and an estimated 8000 cycals)

- The first thing we did was phone up our be-frended washer repair man and ask for his thoughs.

 

 

Daniel

[JohnT]

Being self employed in retail sales (nothing to do with boat building) i have some empathy with some of these companies that may be on the edge. Have you also thought that with a few more orders on their books it would also take them off the edge!!

Surely its not the honest ones who are trying hard to make a living and employ several people, its the ones that purposely run up massive debts including taking deposits and further stage payments when they know full well they are going bust. Anthony ? springs to mind especially as he seemed to have asked for money from clients and dealing in dodgy contracts etc with amind to get as much money out of the situation before finally going under.

 

If any of the builders you were considering showed any kind of doubt about their financie you would not want to place your order with them! So they have to be ebulliant about their financies even if they are not totally sure themselves.

I am certain you may appreciate that all companies have cash flow problems even those that appear totally stable.

 

The recent demise of the builder on this thread made one poor job that we know of (yes he did not or would not correct it) but he has been villified to pieces and probably driven into bankrupcy("let him that has not sinned throw the first stone"). anyone given any thought to the people he employed and their families?

[John Wood]

To tie in with the thread about Waterways World, maybe an idea for an article could be a league table, published every month where customers having bought a boat could then rate the boat builder on different categories. Quality of build, helpfullness, built on time, customer service, value for money etc, etc. These categories could be rated from very good down to very poor. The list could be assembled showing every builder, the one at the top being the best. This would show Boat Builders for what they are. It does'nt rely on people on forums refusing to name names, it relies on the customer, filling out a report. Its a bit like rating the seller on ebay. If I was still going to buy a boat, I would certainly take notice of the position of the builder on a league table.

So Waterways World, you'r looking for new ideas, why not give it a try

[Phil Speight]

To tie in with the thread about Waterways World, maybe an idea for an article could be a league table, published every month where customers having bought a boat could then rate the boat builder on different categories. Quality of build, helpfullness, built on time, customer service, value for money etc, etc. These categories could be rated from very good down to very poor. The list could be assembled showing every builder, the one at the top being the best. This would show Boat Builders for what they are. It does'nt rely on people on forums refusing to name names, it relies on the customer, filling out a report. Its a bit like rating the seller on ebay. If I was still going to buy a boat, I would certainly take notice of the position of the builder on a league table.

So Waterways World, you'r looking for new ideas, why not give it a try

It`s been suggested before . The sticking point seems to be something to do with advertizing revenue...................

One reviewer of boats I know told me he would only undertake to write about a boat if he knew he would like it beforehand so he would be certain not to offend any potential advertizers. Think about it . Have you ever read an uncomplimentary review in any of the main canal magazines ?

Phil

[Sue1946]

Hi All

We paid 10% deposit with balance on handover. Our builder is a one man operation and buys shell foam insulated and lines out and fits out his self. Everything is handbuilt, no flatpack units, and in our boat oak.

Reading of some peoples disasters on web sites i am pleased we are at least safe as far as a builder going bust having only 10% at risk.

Have some pics at boatlife.blogspot.com

[John Wood]

One reviewer of boats I know told me he would only undertake to write about a boat if he knew he would like it beforehand so he would be certain not to offend any potential advertizers.

 

Phil

I'm not suggesting that someone from the magazine does a review. I'm suggesting that the person buying the boat marks the the boat builder, and submits his scores to Waterways world. This would be independant of the magazine and would be the opinion of the purchaser. The magazine can make it quite clear that the views expressed are those of the purchaser and not the magazine. This distances the magazine from the Boat builder. If the Boat builder does a good job, then they have nothing to fear. If they do a bad job, then Joe Public has a right to know. It sickens me to know that there are bad boat builders out there who should be named and shamed. I know a supplier to the boat building industry, who knew that Anthony M was technically bankrupt over a year ago. What a shame that people in the industry protect each other and corrupt boat builders to the detriment of the Purchaser. If only he had told me, I wouldnt have lost £25700 with absolutely nothing to show for it.

 

John Wood

[DHutch]

You still have the same problem tho.

 

- like jon geting into trouble though posts on the site, only worse.

[Amicus]

Hate to be a dampener but there is a snag with this, you are assuming all the customers are/would be honest?

I've worked in the boat-building trade and in the building trade and the "Client from Hell" is not that rare a beastie. I have known clients be utter arseoles and if they cant get their own way are quite happy to go public with a bunch of lies, slagging off all and sundry.

[Gary Peacock]

Time for a comment from the other side of the fence.

 

One of the biggest problems builders suffer with cash flow is customers who don't pay or don't pay on time!

 

You would be amazed how many think it is clever to wait until the banks are closed prior to a bank holiday to make their already late payment!

 

It might be that a lot of boat buyers are just the forgetful types but it does seem to be quite a common event.

[JohnT]

Personnally I think a thread for people to comment on thier finished boats and who wish to recommend their builder could be a good thing. Although potentially not many satisfied owners would bother, it would more likely be the people who have had a problem with their build who would comment. It then quickly becomes a negative thread instead of a positive one.

Bad news spreads quickly!! whereas good news does not.

 

Hundreds of boats must be built each year and yet you only hear of the handful who have had a problem, so a very large percentage must be satisfied owners.

 

It is very easy to slip into a situation where all builders are mistrusted, just look at the comments on this thread of people who are seeking a builder but do not know which way to turn because of negative comments about some builders.

 

Come on its not all bad news be positive and please, if you can recommend your builder tell us about them.

 

JohnT

[Phil Speight]

`mornin

Gary did well to use the expression "other side of the fence" because it`s easy in discussions like this to forget that there is one . Next time someone says how late their boat was for instance - ask them how many times they changed their mind about it`s spec. or features after the buld had started ! I`ve always been lucky with customers but I`ve worked closely with enough boat builders to see just how difficult , obstructive and downright unfair they can be at times .There`s no excuse for at least one of the names that has cropped up recently but we need to treat each other openly and fairly whichever side of the fence we`re on .

Cheers

Phil

[gaggle]

re gary and late payments.

 

told builder do the snags get the money,three months later snags not done he has not had the money.

i wil gladly pay it on the completion of snag list.

complained that the list is growing,been out 4 days with another person on board and said to him(my son) what is wrong major to you as a passenger.see build blog later when i update.

 

i thought the builder was ok and now i am getting a bit worried.

the amount outstanding will i think be less than what it will cost to rectify snags.

[anhar]

re gary and late payments.

 

told builder do the snags get the money,three months later snags not done he has not had the money.

i wil gladly pay it on the completion of snag list.

complained that the list is growing,been out 4 days with another person on board and said to him(my son) what is wrong major to you as a passenger.see build blog later when i update.

 

i thought the builder was ok and now i am getting a bit worried.

the amount outstanding will i think be less than what it will cost to rectify snags.

Hello gaggle

 

I think you are quite fortunate in having obtained a retention at all from your builder. This is something that happens often in the normal building industry on land but I've yet to discover a canal boat builder or supplier that would agree to it. All those I've talked to require that the full cost is paid by the time the boat is delivered.

 

Anyway, I hope they do fix the snags for you. Good luck with them.

 

regards

Steve

[Big COL]

Time for a comment from the other side of the fence.

 

One of the biggest problems builders suffer with cash flow is customers who don't pay or don't pay on time!

 

You would be amazed how many think it is clever to wait until the banks are closed prior to a bank holiday to make their already late payment!

 

It might be that a lot of boat buyers are just the forgetful types but it does seem to be quite a common event.

 

Gary

 

This may be a valid point. BUT the customer has no way telling what state his builders cash flow is in, worst case scenario, he could be using deposits taken for builds two boats on to finance the current build. This has happened in the very recent past, so just how does the customer know his payments are not just going down a black hole of debt.

As it has been pointed out there are builders who will only take a deposit to book the build spot, then invoice the balance on completion of the boat. Builders who are able to do this are not suffering cash flow problems.

There are some prospective buyers complaining that Gary and Phill will not name names, there is no need for them to do so, if you want to be sure that the boat will be built and you will actually get delivery, then use the builders that only want a deposit until the boat is finished, you are reasonably certain that they are financially secure. This security comes with a price, these builders will be at the higher end of the price range, if you want a cheap build then you will have to be prepared to take some risks. Having said that there are builders who compete with the current market price and are sound and reliable.

[anhar]

... There are some prospective buyers complaining that Gary and Phill will not name names, there is no need for them to do so, if you want to be sure that the boat will be built and you will actually get delivery, then use the builders that only want a deposit until the boat is finished, you are reasonably certain that they are financially secure. This security comes with a price, these builders will be at the higher end of the price range, if you want a cheap build then you will have to be prepared to take some risks. Having said that there are builders who compete with the current market price and are sound and reliable.

Hello Col

 

My searches lead me to the conclusion that your comments are not representative of the current market as far as fully fitted boats are concerned. Top end builders are almost certain to require stage payments as much as any other.

 

I've only found one, Ken Yates, who works without stage payments. They are middlemen and work on a 10% deposit with the balance on delivery and are nowhere near top end, in fact they are right at the lowest end of the price range. By paying for the deposit with a credit card you are then pretty well protected. Even if they go bust before delivery you could recover the lost deposit from the credit card company.

 

But everyone else I've talked to, which is quite a few firms including some at the upper end of the price range, requires stage payments.

 

regards

Steve

[Lesd]

Hi,

My experiences while searching for the last few months match Steve's; ie stage payments being the norm. The thing I get concerned about was the varying spread of the payments some want (some are heavily weighted to the front end of the build). Does the standard contract people refer too specify what proportion each stage payment should actually be ?

Les

[JohnT]

Looking at it from the other side of the fence I am pretty sure if I were a builder I would not build on a deposit only basis, even with a contract. Too many poeple these days are fickle in their purchasing (ask me about how many times i ordered goods for people in good faith and when received the customer has changed their minds! I will only order with full payment now) could you imagine laying out £40-£50k on parts and labour then the client says they have changed their minds, got a bargain from somewhere else, found a better builder, decided to buy aplace in france etc

 

One of the quickest ways too bankrupcy I would say!!