What is a ''proper'' Trad Stern?

[alan_fincher]

Which one ?

 

I have health registration and gauge details for about 50 'historic' boats named VICTORIA. Add to this a couple of B.C.N. day boat conversions named VICTORIA and you can see that there is plenty of scope for confusion !

Accepted, but I think Speedwheel has a family connection with an existing converted boat of that name.

[Speedwheel]

Indeed, though I don't think it has had that name for very long (could be wrong). It was going to be changed but couldn't think of anything to change it to when the signwriter arrived so Victoria stuck.

 

Pete it is one of the BCN day boat conversions. Unfortunately there are no sign of an plates or numbers.

 

To be honest there is not a lot of the original boat left. It is one that was going rotten in the marina and my dad offered the guy a beer (well almost that cheap) to take it off his hands. It had a counter conversion, which was not great, and we were pushing matches into the holes in the bottom and footings to stop it sinking. New counter, footings, cabin, engine and bottom and this is what it turned out like.

 

Edited December 2, 2010 by Speedwheel

[alan_fincher]

Indeed, though I don't think it has had that name for very long (could be wrong). I was going to be changed but couldn't think of anything to change it to when the signwriter arrived so Victoria stuck.

 

Pete it is one of the BCN day boat conversions. Unfortunately there are no sign of an plates or numbers. I

It looks an interesting boat.

 

What are the theories about origin and age, please ?

 

Did it start life as a composite ?

[pete harrison]

Indeed, though I don't think it has had that name for very long (could be wrong). I was going to be changed but couldn't think of anything to change it to when the signwriter arrived so Victoria stuck.

 

Pete it is one of the BCN day boat conversions. Unfortunately there are no sign of an plates or numbers.

 

To be honest there is not a lot of the original boat left. It is one that was going rotten in the marina and my dad offered the guy a beer (well almost that cheap) to take it off his hands. It had a counter conversion, which was not great, and we were pushing matches into the holes in the bottom and footings to stop it sinking. New counter, footings, cabin, engine and bottom and this is what it turned out like.

 

 

This is exactly the boat I was thinking of (replies were being added whilst I was completing an edit). Last time I saw it there was a small fore cabin fitted.

 

This boat is what enthusiasts call a 'Mk2 2 Bantock'. I have previous names as PHYLISS MARY and IMPERATOR but I can not confirm these. I have ownership details going back to a claimed 1985, although the index number dates from 1989 ! Unfortunately I have no B.C.N. gauge number for this boat.

[Speedwheel]

Thanks Pete. That is considerably more that we knew.

 

For your records boat is now 57ft. Ivybridge Marine did the steel work about 6-7 years ago. Engine is a Bolinder Munktell 1113. I will get you the current index number.

 

The index number from 1989 probably dated from the last time it was licenced!

[Chris-B]

Thanks Pete. That is considerably more that we knew.

 

For your records boat is now 57ft. Ivybridge Marine did the steel work about 6-7 years ago. Engine is a Bolinder Munktell 1113. I will get you the current index number.

 

The index number from 1989 probably dated from the last time it was licenced!

 

It was that long ago !!!!

opps time flies

Chris

 

 

 

[Speedwheel]

It was that long ago !!!!

opps time flies

Chris

 

It might even be 8 years. I remember when we all went down to Weybridge for Xmas in 2005 and that was its first proper outing.

[Chris-B]

It might even be 8 years. I remember when we all went down to Weybridge for Xmas in 2005 and that was its first proper outing.

 

Bloody hell yes..the Pelican run when we were on that bloody cruiser stern thing that the rudder kept popping out of its socket !!!

[Speedwheel]

Bloody hell yes..the Pelican run when we were on that bloody cruiser stern thing that the rudder kept popping out of its socket !!!

 

And Lindy Wood gave you a bit of a dent.

 

Edit: A pic - camera phones were not as good back then!

 

Edited December 2, 2010 by Speedwheel

[Doorman]

 

Hazel, (the Nurser one) was such a beast, but I don't have photos of the actual arrangement.

 

But if you want a motorised boat that is actually butty style many would say she took some beating for hull shape.

 

 

I wonder if Steve Hudson modeled his Josher bow design on Hazel? Certainly looks familiar.

[alan_fincher]

I wonder if Steve Hudson modeled his Josher bow design on Hazel? Certainly looks familiar.

Well it's no closer to a Josher than to Hazel, I'll agree on that!

 

What is certain also is that neither Hazel nor a Steve Hudson is a Josher.

[Guest]

Looking at the openness of the access to the prop, I think you are in more danger with that arrangement than on a counter stern with the prop tucked safely away underneath. Imagine falling in and sticking your foot through the prop*

 

Richard

 

*on second thoughts, don't imagine that

 

I'm still not convinced a shrouded prop is not inherently safer than one that is not shrouded after all as I said last time I raised this cross channel lifeboats have them...

 

- with lots of people potentially to pull aboard this has got to be the design of choice.

 

I understand the argument made last time I raised this they might be susceptible to being jammed by canal borne debris... I don't understand they cannot be considered safer than a 'free' rotating prop.

[stagedamager]

I wonder if Steve Hudson modeled his Josher bow design on Hazel? Certainly looks familiar.

 

The Bow has been rebuilt by john woolley since that flyer and IIRC it lost a fair amount of its sweep, a good job though however, but not a true representation.

regards

Dan

[Doorman]

Well it's no closer to a Josher than to Hazel, I'll agree on that!

 

What is certain also is that neither Hazel nor a Steve Hudson is a Josher.

 

Quite right, I should have edited to say; 'modeled his hull', rather than; 'modeled his josher bow', but nonetheless, Hudson boats swim really well both in forward and reverse, so the guy obviously got something right.

 

Also, for us two old gits, it's the nearest thing we'll ever get to a decent boat that performs as it should.

 

Mike

Edited December 3, 2010 by Doorman

[Doorman]

Is that the Lion, the 1940's built Hardy Spicer push tug? What ever it is it's not over 100 years old.

 

 

Interesting that considering the boat was built in the 1940's, it was still of riveted construction. Possibly a preference of that particular boat builder. Do you know when canal boat hulls of welded construction first appeared on the scene, as warships in the first world war were at the forefront of this 'new' technology back in 1914 (alegedly).

 

This is a photo of the present engine in the Tug. Is it the Bolinder you mentioned? The renovator did mention that the owner of the marina used to own the tug and that it did have a JP engine on board at that time.

 

Mike

[pete harrison]

Interesting that considering the boat was built in the 1940's, it was still of riveted construction. Possibly a preference of that particular boat builder. Do you know when canal boat hulls of welded construction first appeared on the scene, as warships in the first world war were at the forefront of this 'new' technology back in 1914 (alegedly).

 

Mike

 

The shipbuilder Charles Hill, Bristol built 8 narrow motor's for the Severn & Canal Carrying Company Ltd., Gloucester between 1934 and 1935. All of these motor's had welded hulls (with wooden bottoms) and are widely regarded as being the first welded narrow boats. It was still the norm at this time to rivet metal narrow boat hulls. The builder of the tug LION was still producing riveted narrow boats in the early 1960's, although these were for pleasure rather than carrying.

 

W,J. Yarwood & Sons Ltd., Northwich built their last riveted narrow boat in 1948 (GORSE) but had built a one off welded motor in 1945 (TRENT No. 5) although this boat was fitted with a riveted cabin and engine room !

 

The last metal hulled narrow boats to be built for carrying (1958 to 1961) all had welded steel hulls with the North Western boats ('Admiral Class') also having welded steel cabins and gunwales around the butty cabins.

[Speedwheel]

Is it the Bolinder you mentioned?

 

Yes that is a Bolinder Munktell 1054. 4 cylinder, 44hp at 1500rpm.

 

Such a shame it is being used to push around a converted day boat. Should be out working.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Speedwheel

[Timleech]

 

 

The last metal hulled narrow boats to be built for carrying (1958 to 1961) all had welded steel hulls with the North Western boats ('Admiral Class') also having welded steel cabins and gunwales around the butty cabins.

 

I misread you at first as saying the Admirals had 'all welded' hulls (as opposed to 'all had welded hulls'). There were in fact a few rivets used in their construction, at least in the case of the Yarwoods boats. It appears that the chine angle, for instance, was pulled tight to the plates with rivets prior to being welded.

 

AIUI it was WWII which brought welded hull construction forward in a big way in shipyards, with the need to speed production dramatically (though with some dramatic early failures).

Rivetting was still common in the 1940s though. See the Brunner Mond/ICI packets, for instance, built by Yarwoods, which had a significant amount of welding but it was evidently not fully trusted especially for certain plate seams.

 

Tim

[bargemast]

 

I would draw your attention to SISKIN built by Steve Priest about 20 years ago. This was built along the lines of a Large Northwich - although Large Northwich butty's were never originally built of course - and has had a full length house boat cabin since new. I think a 'Josher' butty was built by Brinklow Boat Services a few years ago and I am sure this would have been of a similar quality.

 

 

Hello Pete,

 

I'm reading a very interesting build blog of Steve Goddard who has a "Cowburn and Cowper" remake built by Simon Wain with his assistance, and that boat is named "SISKIN" too, it almost looks a sort of standard name then for boats build by "Brinklow Boat Services" if they built another one with the same name some 20 years ago.

 

Peter.

[Doorman]

The shipbuilder Charles Hill, Bristol built 8 narrow motor's for the Severn & Canal Carrying Company Ltd., Gloucester between 1934 and 1935. All of these motor's had welded hulls (with wooden bottoms) and are widely regarded as being the first welded narrow boats. It was still the norm at this time to rivet metal narrow boat hulls. The builder of the tug LION was still producing riveted narrow boats in the early 1960's, although these were for pleasure rather than carrying.

 

W,J. Yarwood & Sons Ltd., Northwich built their last riveted narrow boat in 1948 (GORSE) but had built a one off welded motor in 1945 (TRENT No. 5) although this boat was fitted with a riveted cabin and engine room !

 

The last metal hulled narrow boats to be built for carrying (1958 to 1961) all had welded steel hulls with the North Western boats ('Admiral Class') also having welded steel cabins and gunwales around the butty cabins.

 

Thanks for that, very interesting.

 

I was intrigued by the thickness of the riveted hulls where the overlay occurred. Although some of the hulls had suffered perforation due to corrosion, most were in good condition for their age.

 

I couldn't resist taking photo's of the tug, never seen anything like it before. Kevin, the chap who was doing the work, was very friendly and took time out to let me view inside the cabin/engine hole.

 

Mike

 

P.S. Although our modern engined 'josher washer' is a poor substitute for these vintage craft, we love the traditional lines

that the builder incorporates in his boats. Also, I never thought I'd ever be so keen to polish brass fixtures when I was a mere landlubber!

[pete harrison]

I misread you at first as saying the Admirals had 'all welded' hulls (as opposed to 'all had welded hulls'). There were in fact a few rivets used in their construction, at least in the case of the Yarwoods boats. It appears that the chine angle, for instance, was pulled tight to the plates with rivets prior to being welded.

 

Tim

 

Yes, I am aware of some riveting being used on the Yarwood built 'Admiral Class' (per Jim Taylor - I have not seen it myself). I did consider mentioning it but thought it may confuse the issue !

[pete harrison]

Hello Pete,

 

I'm reading a very interesting build blog of Steve Goddard who has a "Cowburn and Cowper" remake built by Simon Wain with his assistance, and that boat is named "SISKIN" too, it almost looks a sort of standard name then for boats build by "Brinklow Boat Services" if they built another one with the same name some 20 years ago.

 

Peter.

 

The butty SISKIN was built by Steve Priest when he was building at Stockton, several years before Brinklow Boat Services was set up. I think this butty was named SISKIN as when new it was painted into Willow Wren Canal Carrying Company livery and they named all of their boats after birds.

 

The motor boats of Cowburn and Cowpar were also named after birds, but more specifically only birds beginning with the letter "S" (SWAN, SNIPE, STORK, SEAGULL, STARLING, SKYLARK, SWIFT, SWALLOW - in no particular order). A few 'replica' Cowburn & Cowpar motors have been built over the years and most have continued this 'tradition', so I feel the name SISKIN is more of a coincidental necessity than a deliberate name used for boats built by Priest / Wain / Brinklow Boat Services.

 

I also feel certain that it would be the person who orders the boat that chooses the boat name rather than the builder !

Edited December 5, 2010 by pete harrison

[bargemast]

O.K. Pete, thank you very much for your clear, and knowledgable explanation.

 

Peter.

[Doorman]

 

Sorry ABNB, I reallise I'm not doing much to help you sell this "unique pair", but to be honest you haven't had a lot of luck with that have you.

The Moose's head doesn't help!

[Timleech]

Yes, I am aware of some riveting being used on the Yarwood built 'Admiral Class' (per Jim Taylor - I have not seen it myself). I did consider mentioning it but thought it may confuse the issue !

 

Yes, I pointed it out to Jim whilst repairing the Lindsay

 

Tim