Facet Fuel Pumps, BSS & Good Practice

[blodger]

A previous thread suggested an electric facet fuel pump to overcome problems with an engine mechanical lift pump.

 

I asked whether the existing engine lift pump had to be bypassed, a bypass fuel line with valves or, fit it in the same line (in series) was best/options. I have wondered since if a facet could be fitted in the fuel return line or is that a leak off line from the injectors not surplus from the lift pump?

 

I have also wondered about having too many olive joints in the fuel line and how that conflicts with BSS & good practice.

 

Why do I ask? My Lister LWP3S begins stalling at high revs when the fuel tank gets to half-full. I suspect that the lift pump is only satisfactory when gravity fed.

 

Anyway, I have bought a Facet Pump to carry around, while I explore the other possibilities for this behaviour and gain a better understanding of a diesels' fuel needs and lift pumps.

 

There was no direct answer first time round and I have made do with keeping the tank topped up.

 

I am thinking of running the DO down to where the problem recurs and using the pump to extract the remaining DO into storage drums to settle and filter. I have dosed the DO in the past with the RedEx DO additive, etc.

 

Any advice gratefully received and hopefully of benefit to others!

[Radio-Ga-Ga]

A previous thread suggested an electric facet fuel pump to overcome problems with an engine mechanical lift pump.

 

I asked whether the existing engine lift pump had to be bypassed, a bypass fuel line with valves or, fit it in the same line (in series) was best/options. I have wondered since if a facet could be fitted in the fuel return line or is that a leak off line from the injectors not surplus from the lift pump?

 

I have also wondered about having too many olive joints in the fuel line and how that conflicts with BSS & good practice.

 

Why do I ask? My Lister LWP3S begins stalling at high revs when the fuel tank gets to half-full. I suspect that the lift pump is only satisfactory when gravity fed.

 

Anyway, I have bought a Facet Pump to carry around, while I explore the other possibilities for this behaviour and gain a better understanding of a diesels' fuel needs and lift pumps.

 

There was no direct answer first time round and I have made do with keeping the tank topped up.

 

I am thinking of running the DO down to where the problem recurs and using the pump to extract the remaining DO into storage drums to settle and filter. I have dosed the DO in the past with the RedEx DO additive, etc.

 

Any advice gratefully received and hopefully of benefit to others!

The pump will work fine in series with the mechanical pump, it will just push the pumps vavles open. The return is as you suspect, leak off from the inector rail, a pump in it would do no good.

[blodger]

The pump will work fine in series with the mechanical pump, it will just push the pumps vavles open. The return is as you suspect, leak off from the inector rail, a pump in it would do no good.

Thanks for that I was beginning to glean from googling that lift pumps allow flow one way so would in effect view each other as a one way valve.

I have had an informative e-mail through the forum amplifying on what the Service Manual says and encouraging servicing (freeing the plunger and cleaning) or replacing the lift pump (if rubber gone) like for like and, measures (blanking plate) to substitute the Facet.

[Radio-Ga-Ga]

Thanks for that I was beginning to glean from googling that lift pumps allow flow one way so would in effect view each other as a one way valve.

I have had an informative e-mail through the forum amplifying on what the Service Manual says and encouraging servicing (freeing the plunger and cleaning) or replacing the lift pump (if rubber gone) like for like and, measures (blanking plate) to substitute the Facet.

 

Yes if the original is shot theres no point leaving it in place, on the other hand if its serviceable iether will do the job giving you belt and braces. Unless the makers instructions say there must be a filter before the pump I would fit it between tank and filter, eliminating any chance of pulling air through any of the filter joints.

[Chris-B]

Blodger

I suggest you give me a ring on 01895 236246 during opening hours 9-5

and I will have a chat about this

and give you the correct advice !

Chris

this is the day job linky

[blodger]

Blodger

I suggest you give me a ring on 01895 236246 during opening hours 9-5

and I will have a chat about this

and give you the correct advice !

Chris

this is the day job linky

Thanks, I'll be in touch and, to see if I can get a blanking plate before I have a go at removing the lift pump to examine it!

[Chris-B]

edited to remove earlier answer and post a bit more information :

 

One thing I forgot to mention about these fuel lift pumps is:

They work on a plunger rod off the camshaft, on older / high hours engines it is known for the plunger rod or camshaft lobe to suffer a little wear

As these pumps only operate on a 1 - 1.3mm stroke an amount of wear can affect the pumps performance

One "easy" get you home fix is to remove the fuel lift pump from the crankcase, remove the gasket on the mounting face, smear a light application of gasket sealer or silicone and refit direct to crankcase

This effectively moves the pump closer to the cam and increases the rod stroke

 

hope this helps

 

Chris

Edited April 23, 2010 by Baldock

[simonk]

edited to remove earlier answer and post a bit more information :

 

One thing I forgot to mention about these fuel lift pumps is:

They work on a plunger rod off the camshaft, on older / high hours engines it is known for the plunger rod or camshaft lobe to suffer a little wear

As these pumps only operate on a 1 - 1.3mm stroke an amount of wear can affect the pumps performance

One "easy" get you home fix is to remove the fuel lift pump from the crankcase, remove the gasket on the mounting face, smear a light application of gasket sealer or silicone and refit direct to crankcase

This effectively moves the pump closer to the cam and increases the rod stroke

 

hope this helps

 

Chris

 

Aha, I was about to ask a similar question, which it looks like you might have answered. There's only a problem cutting out when the tank is about a quarter full, over that gravity seems adequate. I have taken the lift pump apart (LPWS4, funny star-shaped one) and the diphragm and valves look fine, but as you say, the lever surface may be a little worn, but how can I tell if it's too much and there's not really some other problem? If it is, is it good practice to replace the push rod and gasket at the same time? Don't really want to fit an electric pump so if a new one can solve my problems, I'll be happy.

 

Good tip about removing the gasket though, wish I'd thought of that last week instead of limping through Bath.

[Chris-B]

Aha, I was about to ask a similar question, which it looks like you might have answered. There's only a problem cutting out when the tank is about a quarter full, over that gravity seems adequate. I have taken the lift pump apart (LPWS4, funny star-shaped one) and the diphragm and valves look fine, but as you say, the lever surface may be a little worn, but how can I tell if it's too much and there's not really some other problem? If it is, is it good practice to replace the push rod and gasket at the same time? Don't really want to fit an electric pump so if a new one can solve my problems, I'll be happy.

 

Good tip about removing the gasket though, wish I'd thought of that last week instead of limping through Bath.

 

How many hours on the engine ???

[simonk]

How many hours on the engine ???

 

About 7500 I believe. I will get back to my moorings today where I'll safely be able to take the thing apart and stare at it again. The nuts attaching the pump to the crankcase had loosened slightly but rectifying that and new filters didn't solve the problem. But there have been no problems at all since I topped up with diesel.

[Chris-B]

About 7500 I believe. I will get back to my moorings today where I'll safely be able to take the thing apart and stare at it again. The nuts attaching the pump to the crankcase had loosened slightly but rectifying that and new filters didn't solve the problem. But there have been no problems at all since I topped up with diesel.

 

As I discussed with Blodger on the phone earlier :

Lister's fitted 4 different types of pumps to the LPW / S range over the years up to and including the latest 400 series

the current two types ( Pipes in a "Y" configuration or side by side) are interchangeable with others through the ranges BUT the repair kits are not !

at those sort of hours I would recommend a new pump , push rod and gasket to ensure good suction/pumping

as a CWDF member I do give a discount ( yeah all heart me !)

just give me a ring and have a chat when you are ready

 

Chris

[simonk]

As I discussed with Blodger on the phone earlier :

Lister's fitted 4 different types of pumps to the LPW / S range over the years up to and including the latest 400 series

the current two types ( Pipes in a "Y" configuration or side by side) are interchangeable with others through the ranges BUT the repair kits are not !

at those sort of hours I would recommend a new pump , push rod and gasket to ensure good suction/pumping

as a CWDF member I do give a discount ( yeah all heart me !)

just give me a ring and have a chat when you are ready

 

Chris

 

OK, great, will do next week.

 

Sorry for hijacking this thread but I thought it was kind of a relevant problem.

[blodger]

edited to remove earlier answer and post a bit more information :

 

One thing I forgot to mention about these fuel lift pumps is:

They work on a plunger rod off the camshaft, on older / high hours engines it is known for the plunger rod or camshaft lobe to suffer a little wear

As these pumps only operate on a 1 - 1.3mm stroke an amount of wear can affect the pumps performance

One "easy" get you home fix is to remove the fuel lift pump from the crankcase, remove the gasket on the mounting face, smear a light application of gasket sealer or silicone and refit direct to crankcase

This effectively moves the pump closer to the cam and increases the rod stroke

 

hope this helps

 

Chris

Does that mean if you are finding it necessary to renew the pump then a new pushrod/plunger makes sense?

 

A question(s) then is how universal are they or are they quite engine model specific and, rough ballpark cost?

 

OK, great, will do next week.

 

Sorry for hijacking this thread but I thought it was kind of a relevant problem.

 

On the contrary, thanks for joining in; It seems to be a fairly common problem that folk seem to live with rather than fix because the advice usually offered is 'keep your tank topped up then' or 'dirty diesel'.

[blodger]

Blodger

I suggest you give me a ring on 01895 236246 during opening hours 9-5

and I will have a chat about this

and give you the correct advice !

Chris

this is the day job linky

Lift Pump & Gasket arrived this am (Saturday) and is now fitted. Started first time; a good omen?

 

It was not too easy getting off as access is restricted but replacement was easier as long tube spanners would fit the two fixing nuts as there was more clearance on the new.

As you adviced fuel pipe connections were identical.

[blodger]

I have also wondered about having too many olive joints in the fuel line and how that conflicts with BSS & good practice.

 

Any advice gratefully received and hopefully of benefit to others!

Red Top Facets have 1/4 nptf connections, others and the one I bought are 1/8ntpf. These are barbed for over inserting 5/16 or 8mm car type fuel pipe and clips. I think agglomerators and lift pumps are 1/2 unc but clearly a mismatch and facets do not fit in with the use of BSS approved flexibles or even copper pipe "safely", it seeems to me.

 

I know from speaking to folk on the cut that quite a few engines run on Facets so can anyone point to where the adaptors that enable fulfillment of BSS are available. (Avoiding makeshift adaptation)

 

I have replaced the Lister Lift Pump but the question is not merely academic as there is little point carrying around the Facet for emergencies or helping others out if it cannot conveniently and properly be put in circuit?

[starman]

Red Top Facets have 1/4 nptf connections, others and the one I bought are 1/8ntpf. These are barbed for over inserting 5/16 or 8mm car type fuel pipe and clips. I think agglomerators and lift pumps are 1/2 unc but clearly a mismatch and facets do not fit in with the use of BSS approved flexibles or even copper pipe "safely", it seeems to me.

 

I know from speaking to folk on the cut that quite a few engines run on Facets so can anyone point to where the adaptors that enable fulfillment of BSS are available. (Avoiding makeshift adaptation)

 

I have replaced the Lister Lift Pump but the question is not merely academic as there is little point carrying around the Facet for emergencies or helping others out if it cannot conveniently and properly be put in circuit?

 

This interests me too as I might have to fit one since my Petter has no lift pump and relies (not very successfully) on the injector pumps to pull fuel through.

Would one solution for the Facet be to get a couple of lengths of flexible hose with the right ends to connect into the existing pipework professionally crimped to the pump by a hydraulic hose specialist. I thought it's the jubilee clip type fixing that BSS doesn't like.

[Phoenix_V]

I was advised to fit a Facet pump to our new Beta engine as although it has a tiny mechanical lift pump this was deemed not sufficient for the height of the engine above the tank (60cm approx) I've installed the pump in line after the water separator but before the filter and mechanical pump, not fully tested yet but seems ok. I asked Beta about the npt thread and they said a BSP fitting was close enough so that's what I have done male BSP to compression joint and then copper. nitrile o ring and Heldite to seal, no leak so far.

[blodger]

This interests me too as I might have to fit one since my Petter has no lift pump and relies (not very successfully) on the injector pumps to pull fuel through.

Would one solution for the Facet be to get a couple of lengths of flexible hose with the right ends to connect into the existing pipework professionally crimped to the pump by a hydraulic hose specialist. I thought it's the jubilee clip type fixing that BSS doesn't like.

I had to change my flexible fuel feed and return lines from flexible metal to kitemarked sheathed BSS approved type. They have 8mm copper pipe end stubs for connecting.

 

I was advised to fit a Facet pump to our new Beta engine as although it has a tiny mechanical lift pump this was deemed not sufficient for the height of the engine above the tank (60cm approx) I've installed the pump in line after the water separator but before the filter and mechanical pump, not fully tested yet but seems ok. I asked Beta about the npt thread and they said a BSP fitting was close enough so that's what I have done male BSP to compression joint and then copper. nitrile o ring and Heldite to seal, no leak so far.

I wondered if I could use 8mm straight compression connectors on the facet fuel filter stub if the rim was filed off and likewise if I got another 1/8 npft stub that was similar (not as barbed). I'll have a check with calipers to see if they are 8mm for the olive. I do not think even 1/8npft = bsp to 8mm compression adaptors exist whereas 1/4 ones do and I presume you have used?

[Phoenix_V]

I had to change my flexible fuel feed and return lines from flexible metal to kitemarked sheathed BSS approved type. They have 8mm copper pipe end stubs for connecting.

 

 

I wondered if I could use 8mm straight compression connectors on the facet fuel filter stub if the rim was filed off and likewise if I got another 1/8 npft stub that was similar (not as barbed). I'll have a check with calipers to see if they are 8mm for the olive. I do not think even 1/8npft = bsp to 8mm compression adaptors exist whereas 1/4 ones do and I presume you have used?

 

 

I've checked, this is what I used:-

 

"UNION 1/8 in.BSPT MALE TO 8mm COMPRESSION

Product code: 304587

Retail: £1.65 Discount Price: £1.37 EACH "

 

from ASAP

 

parallel thread as I recall so i used heldtite on the thread and the o ring to be sure

[blodger]

I've checked, this is what I used:-

 

"UNION 1/8 in.BSPT MALE TO 8mm COMPRESSION

Product code: 304587

Retail: £1.65 Discount Price: £1.37 EACH "

 

from ASAP

 

parallel thread as I recall so i used heldtite on the thread and the o ring to be sure

Thanks for that, I have been searching EBay etc, I'll try ASAP.

[Flyboy]

This interests me too as I might have to fit one since my Petter has no lift pump and relies (not very successfully) on the injector pumps to pull fuel through.

Would one solution for the Facet be to get a couple of lengths of flexible hose with the right ends to connect into the existing pipework professionally crimped to the pump by a hydraulic hose specialist. I thought it's the jubilee clip type fixing that BSS doesn't like.

I can't see anything in the BSS that says you can't use Jubilee clips on rubber diesel hoses. Barrus use them to plumb in their electric pump on the Shire range and these meet the BSS.

[paulcatchpole]

I can't see anything in the BSS that says you can't use Jubilee clips on rubber diesel hoses. Barrus use them to plumb in their electric pump on the Shire range and these meet the BSS.

 

Jubilee clips are only acceptable if they're on hose going onto 'hose nozzles or formed ends' (from section 2.11.1/R) and then they've got a whole section to themselves on how well made these joints need to be, which is 2.11.3/R.

 

PC

[Guest]

I can't see anything in the BSS that says you can't use Jubilee clips on rubber diesel hoses. Barrus use them to plumb in their electric pump on the Shire range and these meet the BSS.

Vetus do too. Not sure what the pipes are like inside tBH.

[Phoenix_V]

Jubilee clips are only acceptable if they're on hose going onto 'hose nozzles or formed ends' (from section 2.11.1/R) and then they've got a whole section to themselves on how well made these joints need to be, which is 2.11.3/R.

 

PC

 

 

The thing is according to the rcd and i suspect though am open to correction hoses should only be used on the last leg between pipework and engine, up to that point should be solid

[blodger]

The thing is according to the rcd and i suspect though am open to correction hoses should only be used on the last leg between pipework and engine, up to that point should be solid

Ebay offerings include Marine Grade A1 ISO 7840 'rubberish' fuel pipe the 10mm is about 4.00/metre and 2.00 P&P.

 

SelbyBoatCentre offers Stainless Steel JCS Lloyds approved hose clips.

 

I presume that what is good enough for lumpy water boats is good enough for BSS?

 

There is an A2 Marine Grade that has helical wire strengthening.

 

The BSS flexibles I had to fit were rubber, sheathed with woven wire that has an insulated covering.

 

The BSS flexibles had the requisite 10mm stubs for replacing the previous metal protected pipes.

 

Would ISO 7840 have sufficed presuming barbed connections replaced the former?