Boat Builders

[ChrisPy]

very soon some official bodies could start making big waves in the pond that will upset all builders both professional and amateur.

Gary

would this be likely to upset me on my path to full RCD compliance and certification?

[Gary Peacock]

Gary

would this be likely to upset me on my path to full RCD compliance and certification?

 

Not yet they wont be able to do it over night but it looks like changes are coming at some time in the future if the industry can't convince the powers to be that it can police itself. (I don't think that is going to happen but more on the way it is going to be attempted later.)

[minerva]

everything changes sooner or later..

 

lets face it, if its for the better....?

 

till we know more we can't coment can we...

[bottle]

everything changes sooner or later..

 

lets face it, if its for the better....?

 

till we know more we can't coment can we...

 

Hasn't stopped us before

[iteldoo4me]

 

Problem with a lot of boat faults is they are often not seen or found out about until the boat goes in the water,and with fitouts exceedingt a year in many cases,theres not a lot the owner can do

Edited July 1, 2006 by iteldoo4me

[AllanW]

Well - I finally have a completion date for selling my house and it's time to consider the build more seriously...!

 

I'm going for a 57' semi-trad fitted to liveaboard standard - and hope to be based in Swanley Bridge (or that area)

 

I am 99% sure that I've settled on the fitter - and he likes STS hulls (liverpool) - does anyone have any comments on STS?

 

I've already been convinced that I should avoid Liverpool Boat Co. hulls - but does does anyone have any other personal 'non - favourites'?

 

And does anyone have any 'must have' items when considering a hull? (eg Houdini Hatches - 200L water tank - space for hot tank in engine hole?)

 

Should I consider a 12mm sole plate?

 

And how essential is shot cleaning to remove mill scale?

 

Also - should I invest time in designing for later date upgrades - for things such as an independant diesel generator (anything else I should plan for?)

 

I'm hoping to get all of this together for 2007 build (finance depending!) and I *think* I know what I'm looking for (after a lot of research!) but it's always interesting to hear the views of others

 

Many thanks

 

Allan

Edited July 13, 2006 by AllanW

[alan_fincher]

I am 99% sure that I've settled on the fitter - and he likes STS hulls (liverpool) - does anyone have any comments on STS?

I may be wrong, but seem to recall "Gaggle" may have a boat by STS.

 

Probably worth you sending him a personal message, to see what he is prepared to share on the topic ?

[Effigy]

I've already been convinced that I should avoid Liverpool Boat Co. hulls

 

Why have you discounted Liverpool Boat Co? I am also looking to purchase, and they are on my list.

 

Thanks

[John Orentas]

 

I've already been convinced that I should avoid Liverpool Boat Co. hulls - but does does anyone have any other personal 'non - favourites'?

 

Should I consider a 12mm sole plate?

 

And how essential is shot cleaning to remove mill scale?

 

 

Why does this silly prejudice towards Liverpool Boats still persist. They have been building boats for longer and in greater quantities than anyone else, I have still to hear one substantiated tale that they are anything but fair in their dealings and build sound competitively priced boats. The stories we have all heard are as a result of their lower prices attracting a certain kind of down-market fitter.

 

In my view a 12mm bottom plate is well worth paying a little extra for, in my case I think I paid an extra £400 but some of that can be offset by the reduced cost of ballast, in fact if I were to build another boat I would consider 16mm. Of course not all builders will be prepared to do it.

 

No matter what people tell you mill scale cannot be successfully and economically removed from new steel plate unless you are in the business of building nuclear reactors, some will go through the motions and rough it up a bit but steel plate has to be allowed to stabilise for a few years before grit blasting can be effectively carried out. The environmental problems with the process also attracts a lot of cowboys into the business so be on your guard if you go that route.

Edited July 14, 2006 by John Orentas

[Keeping Up]

In my view a 12mm bottom plate is well worth paying a little extra for, in my case I think I paid an extra £400 but some of that can be offset by the reduced cost of ballast

In our case the 12mm plate cost nothing extra at all; the extra cost of the steel was 100% balanced by cost savings in ballasting, floor supports (they were smaller, which also gave us extra headroom inside), etc. Of course that was 15 years ago, the relative costs of steel and ballast have changed since then.

 

And the increased peace of mind as you pass over yet another supermarket trolley, knowing that your sole-plate is almost un-bendable, is priceless.

[bottle]

All this talk of bottom thickness, I believe that 10mm is the "standard" on new builds does an extra 2mm make that much difference.

 

I could understand going to probably 16mm or even 20mm.

[AllanW]

Why have you discounted Liverpool Boat Co? I am also looking to purchase, and they are on my list.

 

Hi Effigy

 

I've discounted Liverpool Boat Co. hulls for several reasons....

 

1) If you drive past their premisis as regularly as I do you will always see hulls rusting outside. This in itself should not be a problem with proper shotblast cleaning, but I always question how many of these just get spray foamed inside and painted over outside... Have you ever heard of a hull being shot cleaned inside?

 

2) Talking to people (I've done a awful lot of research!) who have bought boats built around LBC hulls and who have had early rust problems confirms in part my suspicions of the above, although I do conceed that if LBC only build the hulls - a lot of the problems are going to be down to poor preperation by the fitter.

 

I do not have any evidence either way of boats fitted out by the LBC themselves being any better or worse (Maybe worth starting a new thread to ask LBC boat owners what they think after 5 years afloat? They ALL look nice when new!))

 

3) I have read experiences of people that have brought them finding poor quality welding (there are a lot of anecdotal stories of hulls with unfinished and poor welding)

 

4) I have read stories of poor after sales service in the event of problems

 

5) They have become known as Liverpool U Boats in some circles (maybe a little unkind), but mud sticks, and predjudice against these hulls will always make them harder to sell on in later years

 

If you send me a private message I'll give you a contact in the trade who will be happy to confirm all of the above and provide several more reasons... I'll also give you the details of what (and why) I'm going for

 

All the best

 

Allan

[John Orentas]

Here we go again, anecdotal stories and un-named builders who will pass on gossip. You do surprise me!

[Bill]

Having had a sailaway built by LB I think I'd like to respond to a couple of your points

 

"I've discounted Liverpool Boat Co. hulls for several reasons....

 

1) If you drive past their premisis as regularly as I do you will always see hulls rusting outside. This in itself should not be a problem with proper shotblast cleaning, but I always question how many of these just get spray foamed inside and painted over outside... Have you ever heard of a hull being shot cleaned inside? "

 

My hull was built over a very short period in the hull building shop. I actually followed it over to the paint shop and it was taken straight in (i.e. was not left outside at all). It appears to me that the production line techniques they use do not allow for anything to sit around very long.

 

"3) I have read experiences of people that have brought them finding poor quality welding (there are a lot of anecdotal stories of hulls with unfinished and poor welding)"

 

I looked over the build on a number of occasions to check the welding in progress (having done a fair bit of welding myself) and was very pleasantly surprised by the quality of what I saw. The fabricators are obviously very practiced at what they do and were a very hard working bunch. I have had the boat for over a year there is very little evidence of anything being skimped or poor quality materials being used.

 

"4) I have read stories of poor after sales service in the event of problems"

 

I had a couple of issues when the boat was delivered. The upshot was that LB sent a couple of their bods down to sort out the issues, no hassle, just fixed it to my satisfaction.

 

Would I buy from them again? Sailaway, Yes definitely, full fit, No (but only because I don't particularly like their fitout style)

 

Bill

[AllanW]

Here we go again, anecdotal stories and un-named builders who will pass on gossip. You do surprise me!

John

 

I think my post was very fair...

 

I'm not buying a LBC hull because they have a reputation for poor workmanship

 

Whether or not that reputation is deserved I'll leave to others

 

I can only repeat that mud sticks - I'm not going to take a chance on such a big investment when there are plenty of builders who have a GREAT reputation

 

Also, any potential problem of selling on a boat with an LBC hull in years to come is one that I don't want

 

I deliberately DIDN'T post any of the anecdotes that I've heard - and as for un-named builders... Would you really have me post names here? How upset with me would you have got if I'd posted "John Orentas thinks Acme Boat Buildrs are crap because..."? That's for them to put their name to - not for me to name

 

Good luck to those who have an LBC boat or hull - I really hope that it's a good one and trouble free.

 

It's just that I'm not buying one!

 

Allan (putting on Tin Hat and ducking)

Edited July 14, 2006 by AllanW

[Gary Peacock]

I think you need to remember that boat building serves many different sectors and budgets, if I was considering buying a hull on a budget I would definetly be paying a visit to LBC rather than handing over my money to someone who's just sprung up in buisness under the railway arches!

 

Hats of to LBC they are very good at producing fair hulls at a very fair price and if that is what you can afford you have found your builder.

 

If your pockets are deep and arms long then you can spend till your pockets are empty and you have the boat of your dreams!

 

Building dreams and building boats are simlar but not quite the same thing!

[ChrisPy]

 

1) If you drive past their premisis as regularly as I do you will always see hulls rusting outside. This in itself should not be a problem with proper shotblast cleaning, but I always question how many of these just get spray foamed inside and painted over outside... Have you ever heard of a hull being shot cleaned inside?

 

spray foam sticks like the proverbial. I wouldn't worry about internal preparation.

 

the real question is .... how many builders use plain steel straight from the mill, and then do not bother to shotblast the exterior prior to painting?

 

that is why my LB sailaway was specified without primer, so I could watch it rust out during fit out and then prepare it and paint it myself when the millscale had dropped off.

[Gary Peacock]

 

the real question is .... how many builders use plain steel straight from the mill, and then do not bother to shotblast the exterior prior to painting?

 

Quite a few I imagine including some quite reputable ones, all of the Heron boats that passed through here were done that way and although I initially thought this was due to the companies troubles at that time we subsequently found out that was the way they always did it.

[John Orentas]

Quite a few I imagine including some quite reputable ones, all of the Heron boats that passed through here were done that way and although I initially thought this was due to the companies troubles at that time we subsequently found out that was the way they always did it.

 

 

Gary, didn't you tell us not long ago that you don't grit or shot blast your shells either. I don't know of any builder who routinely prepares his shells in this way.

[Gary Peacock]

Gary, didn't you tell us not long ago that you don't grit or shot blast your shells either. I don't know of any builder who routinely prepares his shells in this way.

 

We spend about £600.00 on using descaled steel and then "DA" it by hand to key the paint this probably adds just over a £1k to the price of a painted hull. We go to this trouble because we intend to supply boats with a paint job that will far outlast the 12 month legal warranty.

 

If you paint on to scaled steel without any preparation then it's in the hands of the gods what will happen in the future but if it lasts 12 months then you might consider you have just built a boat with a £1k saving and maybe made a bit more profit.

 

In 2003 the BMF/CBA commissioned a report into corrosion control, painting obviously was an integral part of this.

 

Report on Corrosion Control for Inland Waterways Steel Boats

Canal Boatbuilders Association and British Marine Federation

 

The Corrosion Control Report provides an in-depth review of corrosion mechanisms and control techniques. The Report is intended to provide an understanding of the issues for the inland steel boat building industry, represented nationally by the Canal Boatbuilders Association.

 

Various technical papers have been commissioned from leading organisations in the field of corrosion control and these are presented with a summary of the issues that need to be considered at each stage of boatbuilding, from initial steel specification to fitout of electrical systems.

 

At each stage of the build the boatbuilder will be faced with a decision, to be taken in agreement with his customer as necessary, as to the level of corrosion control systems to be applied or used, from preparation of the steelwork for painting to installation of isolation transformers. Each decision will have an impact on the build project, with a consequent impact on the contract specification and price.

 

There are many steps can be taken to enhance corrosion control on inland waterways steel boats, but each will potentially increase the cost of the completed boat: if a customer specifies a boat that encompasses all possible options for corrosion control, the builder must reflect this in his price. This is an issue the industry has to address for the future and this Report provides the outline of issues to be considered in any such discussion.

 

 

Due to copyright I can't just upload the full report even though I would like to, but here are a few extracts.

 

Stage 3

 

Steel preparation

 

Preparation of steel plate in readiness for application of protective coatings presents possibly the first compromise that the boatbuilder has to consider in building the boat. If the plate surface preparation is not correct, the best coating in the world will not protect the steel, however, the best systems for preparation also present the most significant health and safety and environmental protection issues. Both Corus and International agreed in their presentations that blasting steel plate was the most effective and successful way of preparing plate for coating, however the reality of the use of such techniques is somewhat less than ideal for the boatbuilder who may be faced with constraints effectively outside their direct control depending on location and facilities available.

 

Surface preparation is required primarily to remove mill scale and to provide a key for paint systems to adhere to the plate. Surface preparation also removes other contaminants such as dust, flash rusting, oils and grease, effectively providing a bare plate for application of coatings. Failure to remove mill scale and other contaminants will result in paint systems failing with the result being patches of coating falling off the plate and leaving it exposed to further degradation. As noted above, the rate of corrosion of steel plate is dependent on a number of factors, one of which is the presence of contaminants. To provide a good base for coatings and for long-lasting protection, suitable and adequate surface preparation is key to the process.

 

There are two basic methods of surface preparation: mechanical cleaning and blasting. Mechanical cleaning includes electric wire brushing, power sanding or disking and flame cleaning, each of which is suitable for preparation of steel during maintenance but less so for new work. Effectiveness rates vary from 25% to 35%. Blasting encompasses dry and wet abrasive blasting and high-pressure water jet blasting, and may be done on uncut plate or after construction. Each of these methods is suitable for maintenance or new work and each, when performed correctly, is 100% effective at removing surface contaminants and mill scale. The plate will be left bare and will be provided with the best surface for application of coatings.

 

Acid pickling is also a method available for surface preparation, and although again extremely effective, its use is confined to new work only. While pickling steel plate is not recommended by International, the working group consider that it does have a place in the inland boatbuilding industry when used with phosphoric acid etch primer. Etch primers similarly are accepted by the working group as being suitable for inland steel boat building.

 

The Corus technical paper Corrosion Protection of Steel Structures gives more information on surface preparation techniques and provides an explanation of preparation standards and visual inspection methods.

 

Blasting is considered the most effective technique for preparation of steel plate, giving the most resource-efficient and successful means of ensuring full coverage of the plate and can be done before the build as pre-blasting or after the build. Corus and International recommend grit blasting to SA2.5 standard (BS 7079-A1 equivalent to ISO 8501-1 Preparation of steel substrates before application of paints and related products), providing a surface that is suitable for accepting protective coatings. Such grit blasting is carried out in a wide range of industries, but the product concerned is often a high-value or key infrastructure element that is required to be minimum-maintenance such as steel buildings, bridge girders or ship hulls and superstructure. The working group considered that achieving SA2.5 standard was unnecessary for inland steel boat construction but that care should be taken to ensure an adequate profile was achieved.

 

However, the health and safety problems encountered by the operator of the blasting equipment when working in confined spaces and the environmental pollution from blasting residue means that grit blasting is considered to be uncommon as a means of preparing steel plate for coating in the inland boatbuilding industry. Facilities for such works do exist but the associated costs makes the final cost of construction significantly more expensive. Additional problems with blasting include possible deformation of thin plates: rippling of plates less than 5mm or 6mm thick is a real possibility and great skill and care must be exercised in using such techniques when working on plate areas such as the superstructure.

 

Mechanical cleaning provides a cheaper and more practicable method of surface preparation with less onerous health and safety implications than blasting. Disking and wire brushing is the most common method of surface preparation in the industry and is recommended by the working group as the preferred method of surface preparation in the majority of new builds.

 

This approach has been taken with due consideration of the relative effectiveness of different systems and the health and safety aspects of each, with an overarching constraint being the cost of blasting systems relative to the final value of the product, as determined by the customer. A builder may consider offering the customer the option to have the steel blasted, but this must consequently be reflected in the price and delivery timescale if outside resources are required to undertake such work.

 

Not all of the UK boatbuilding industry lives in the dark ages and for those builders that choose to research the subject the information is available. We based our process on the research carried out on the behalf of the BMF/CBA by the likes of Corrus and Akzo Nobel they are far more qualified to advise than we ever will be.

 

I suppose at the end of the day you pay your money and you make your choices! (Or should that of be CHANCES?)

[keble]

Hi

 

... We were impressed by the boats at Otherton Boathaven but have since been told that the build quality might not be up to scratch

I'd be interested to know if you went ahead with Otherton. We too are impressed with them and are seriously considering placing an order.

[Liverpool Boat Co Ltd]

Shows how busy we are, i've only just got around to reading this post.

 

With the number of boats we have out on the water you are always going to find people with good and bad things to say about us, but we do a lot of repeat business and also recommendations. This is shown by the fact that a lot of builders who only sell a couple of boats a year, have to take out 2 page adverts in the magazines (we do a half page), spend money on fancy web-sites (i do our website), send 3 boats and a dozen staff to every show (we sent 2 people and 1 boat to crick), send you out an externally produced colour brochure (we print ours in the office), BUT we still manage to sell 340 boats a year. So we must be doing something right. Maybe its because we don't have to pass on all the marketing costs?

 

It's surprising how many customers who come and actually buy boats off us, say they only made the appointment to come and see us because when they went to other builders, the builders spent all the time slagging us off and not telling them about their own boats.

 

We have also had a number of well known boat fitters asking for our hulls, but without the distinctive scroll on the hulls. So snobery is alive and well on some canals.

 

All i would ask any customer is to come and see us and make your own mind up. We are not the builder for everyone, but who is?

 

Well that my rant for 2007. Time to get back to the business of building boats.

[carlt]

We have also had a number of well known boat fitters asking for our hulls, but without the distinctive scroll on the hulls. So snobery is alive and well on some canals.

Hi (canI call you LBC?)

Do you actually pander to this snobbery?

[Liverpool Boat Co Ltd]

Hi (canI call you LBC?)

Do you actually pander to this snobbery?

 

Hello Carlt, LBC is fine.

 

NO, It's the one request we always say no to. We are proud of our Company and the boats it builds.

[carlt]

Hello Carlt, LBC is fine.

 

NO, It's the one request we always say no to. We are proud of our Company and the boats it builds.

Good for you.

Liverpool Boats were building boats before I was on the canals (early 80s) so you must be doing something right.

 

It can't just be down to price or we'd all have springers and be driving Ladas. Having fitted out an LBC boat I can say the steelwork is a lot better than some of the, so-called, quality hull builders. One such company (which shall remain nameless) repeatedly wins awards but has a reputation, in the trade, of using so much filler a magnet won't stick to the hull.