New engine new gearbox.

[Gary Peacock]

Recently there have been two cases (Different engine manufacturers and suppliers) where it turned out that new engines were supplied with what the customers considered to be less than brand new gearboxes. Both manufacturers exchanged the gearboxes for brand new units without hesitation.

How this came about will probably never come to light, after all it's not a very good advert but the suggestion was that the problem does not lie with the engine manufacturers or suppliers.

 

If you have recently purchased a new engine it might be worth having a quick check that under that new paint you actually have a new gearbox.

 

Both manufacturers involved resolved the problem without issue so there is no reason to name names so please don't ask.

[David Schweizer]

Recently there have been two cases (Different engine manufacturers and suppliers) where it turned out that new engines were supplied with what the customers considered to be less than brand new gearboxes. Both manufacturers exchanged the gearboxes for brand new units without hesitation.

How this came about will probably never come to light, after all it's not a very good advert but the suggestion was that the problem does not lie with the engine manufacturers or suppliers.

 

If you have recently purchased a new engine it might be worth having a quick check that under that new paint you actually have a new gearbox.

 

Both manufacturers involved resolved the problem without issue so there is no reason to name names so please don't ask.

 

Although I would not wish to embarass you into naming names, part of me believes that the company should be identified if they are deliberately passing off second hand gearboxes for new. Even if they do replace them when found out, how many people have been unwittingly conned by this practice. After all we are talking more than £500 between a new and re-conned PRM

 

I have been recently researching new/reconditioned engines, and lhave learned quite a bit about some companies reputations in the trade for re-using secondhand parts, it doesn't take much guessing as to who you might be referring to.

Edited October 28, 2005 by David Schweizer

[rayman]

I don,t think gary should have to name names, the fact is, he's brought it to our attention what is going on,but that's not surprising in today's world.It's amazing what a lick of paint can do,but my guess is,the boxes have been exchanged without argument as, would you want it to get out if you were doing this? as usual buyer beware,it must be worth a few extra quid to get this checked out by a experienced mechanic who knows how to check for wear n tear.

[Big COL]

How can you actually tell? a professional matching coat of paint you wouldn't know. Is there a date stamp on them? and even if there is how can you tell the difference between secondhand and old stock of brand new boxes, unless there is an obvious time differential.

It would be difficult to see any spanner marks on the nuts or slight roundings on the nuts once they have been covered with paint.

Gary, did these boxes come to light because they had failed? if not, how without stripping one to see if it has been reworked, can you tell.

I understand what David is saying about reconditioned engines putting one piston in a failed engine and a set of big end and main bearing shells and calling it a reconditioned engine is an old stroke, they would just about last until the warranty runs out, even if it started burning oil from day one they would tell you the rings need to bed in, it will get better, they never did.

Edited October 28, 2005 by Big COL

[Gary Peacock]

Nearly all engine "manufacturers" don't actually produce the engines, they arrive in the raw unmarinised form and then a coat of the manufacturers preferred colour is applied to engine and gearbox after the marinisation is complete.

 

If you look at the gearbox pictured below you can see what got the owner concerned! To make matters worse under that particularly nasty paint job was another colour associated with another manufacturer.

 

 

 

In the commercial vehicle industry there was always a fine line between new and re manufactured products maybe this goes on in the marine industry too.

Edited October 29, 2005 by Gary Peacock

[Amicus]

That’s amazing, you’d think they would grit blast the casings. Particularly if they wanted to pass it off as new. The old chipped paint is obvious under the new.

Is that MOD desert camo paint?

 

 

Edit;

p.s. It’s difficult to believe the engine seller was innocent in this.

Edited October 29, 2005 by Amicus

[Gary Peacock]

I have been recently researching new/reconditioned engines, and lhave learned quite a bit about some companies reputations in the trade for re-using secondhand parts, it doesn't take much guessing as to who you might be referring to.

 

I had a conversation with someone this afternoon and it appears these might not just be two "blips" in the system it will be interesting to see if any more turn up.

[david and julie]

You've got me concerned now Gary!

 

My boat, which is is fitted with a Beta 38 and PRM 120 has a distinct clunk(enough to move the engine slightly on its mountings) when changing from forward to reverse(or vice versa). This happens all the time, even if you wait a few minutes before changing. There is also a distinct smell which the builder says is the new paint, but to me smells like gear oil. I mentioned this to him and he said it can't be gear oil as it is filled with ATF.

 

Because I am fitting it out myself the engine/box has only done about 15 hours in total.

 

Are PRM 120 boxes clunky and a tad agricultural in use? do they smell when new? anyone any thoughts on this? there are no oil leaks etc.

[Big COL]

You've got me concerned now Gary!

 

My boat, which is is fitted with a Beta 38 and PRM 120 has a distinct clunk(enough to move the engine slightly on its mountings) when changing from forward to reverse(or vice versa). This happens all the time, even if you wait a few minutes before changing. There is also a distinct smell which the builder says is the new paint, but to me smells like gear oil. I mentioned this to him and he said it can't be gear oil as it is filled with ATF.

 

Because I am fitting it out myself the engine/box has only done about 15 hours in total.

 

Are PRM 120 boxes clunky and a tad agricultural in use? do they smell when new? anyone any thoughts on this? there are no oil leaks etc.

 

David

 

My boat has a new Beta Engine and 150 PRM I have had the same smell of hot oil. This has continued after the first gearbox oil change. It has not caused me any concern. This is similar to the smell you get from a new car, only with a car you soon clock up running time which you do not with a boat, The smell is lessening on the boat and is now only noticeable after a long cruise.

[David Schweizer]

.....There is also a distinct smell which the builder says is the new paint, but to me smells like gear oil. I mentioned this to him and he said it can't be gear oil as it is filled with ATF.

 

Because I am fitting it out myself the engine/box has only done about 15 hours in total.

 

Are PRM 120 boxes clunky and a tad agricultural in use? do they smell when new? anyone any thoughts on this? there are no oil leaks etc.

I would be a bit concerned if any boatbuilder told me that he had filled a PRM gearbox with ATF. They should only be filled with normal Engine Oil. It does cast some doubt upon the builder's technical knowledge and advice.

 

I had a conversation with someone this afternoon and it appears these might not just be two "blips" in the system it will be interesting to see if any more turn up.

I have heard several horror stories about less than honest suppliers of re-built/re-manufactured engines, which is why I have decided to have my engine and Gearbox completely re-built by a respected marine engineer. The downside of this decision is that I will have to wait six months before he has sufficient time to do the job.

[Keeping Up]

You've got me concerned now Gary!

 

My boat, which is is fitted with a Beta 38 and PRM 120 has a distinct clunk(enough to move the engine slightly on its mountings) when changing from forward to reverse(or vice versa). This happens all the time, even if you wait a few minutes before changing. There is also a distinct smell which the builder says is the new paint, but to me smells like gear oil. I mentioned this to him and he said it can't be gear oil as it is filled with ATF.

 

Because I am fitting it out myself the engine/box has only done about 15 hours in total.

 

Are PRM 120 boxes clunky and a tad agricultural in use? do they smell when new? anyone any thoughts on this? there are no oil leaks etc.

Yes they always make a loud clunk when engaging gear, forward or reverse. But they should always be filled with engine oil, NEVER with either gearbox oil or ATF. As far as I know they don't normally smell - I've just had a new PRM 150 fitted and it certainly doesn't smell at all. Incidentally I changed the oil after 25 hours as recommended and was amazed at how much rubbish came out with the oil!

 

On the original topic, this is possibly not such a new phenomemon. My old box, a PRM Delta, was supposedly supplied new in 1994 as a warrantee replacement for the useless Borg-Warner box that had been originally supplied by the engine manufacturer (Duffields Perkins). It gave trouble right from the beginning; when it was supposedly a few months old I spoke to PRM and they said that according to the serial number it was about 3 years old so was out of warrantee as far as they were concerned.

[AndyM]

You've got me concerned now Gary!

 

My boat, which is is fitted with a Beta 38 and PRM 120 has a distinct clunk(enough to move the engine slightly on its mountings) when changing from forward to reverse(or vice versa). This happens all the time, even if you wait a few minutes before changing. There is also a distinct smell which the builder says is the new paint, but to me smells like gear oil. I mentioned this to him and he said it can't be gear oil as it is filled with ATF.

 

Because I am fitting it out myself the engine/box has only done about 15 hours in total.

 

Are PRM 120 boxes clunky and a tad agricultural in use? do they smell when new? anyone any thoughts on this? there are no oil leaks etc.

 

Hi Dave / Julie,

 

I have a PRM120 fitted onto my Isuzu 35. I have found it to be exactly as you describe all through the 116 hours that I have now done on it, very clunky and raw but it does the job OK - so I'm happy!!

 

I have only had to have the breather cap on the top of the box changed as it wasn't breathing, but that has made no diference to it's performance.

 

Incidentally - I emailed their head office to find out which particular oil should be used in these boxes and was told any good big brand engine oil would be OK - if it's good enough for the engine it's good enough for the box. Which then begs the question - "What is wrong with the supermarket brands of oil?" surely they must take their stocks from the big pool of oil available to the big brands as I don't know of any supermarket owned refineries?!

 

Any one have any comments / advice on this?

 

Andy.

[Maffi]

Ok I don't mind admitting to be at a loss.

 

Gearboxes are by their very nature filled with gears, so why do we not use gearbox oil?

[Big COL]

Ok I don't mind admitting to be at a loss.

 

Gearboxes are by their very nature filled with gears, so why do we not use gearbox oil?

 

Hi Maffi

 

The PRM box is a hydraulic box with an oil pump. The viscosity of gear oil would be to much for the pump to operate correctly.

[John Orentas]

Ok I don't mind admitting to be at a loss.

 

Gearboxes are by their very nature filled with gears, so why do we not use gearbox oil?

 

 

Maffi.

 

There is more to a gearbox than a load of cogs. The more sensitive elements of it are to do with gear selection, in the case of the PRM types this is done by means of hydraulic cylinders controlled by a spool valve, although not requiring very light conventional hydraulic oil it does require a lighter oil than would normally be used with gears.

 

Hurth gearboxes are very fiddly using a system of servo controlled metallic clutches, (if I had seen inside one before I bought my engine I would have found an alternative) these boxes require the use of very light ATF auto transmission fluid.

[David Schweizer]

Maffi.

 

There is more to a gearbox than a load of cogs. The more sensitive elements of it are to do with gear selection, in the case of the PRM types this is done by means of hydraulic cylinders controlled by a spool valve, although not requiring very light conventional hydraulic oil it does require a lighter oil than would normally be used with gears.

 

Hurth gearboxes are very fiddly using a system of servo controlled metallic clutches, (if I had seen inside one before I bought my engine I would have found an alternative) these boxes require the use of very light ATF auto transmission fluid.

With your engineering experience I can't believe that you chose a Hurth gearbox rather than a PRM, John. Was it a "senior" moment.

 

Seriously, over the years I have seen many boats layed up with the gearbox on the bank, in every instance it has been a Hurth, enough said.

[John Orentas]

David.

 

I've never had much to do with boat gearboxes, both of my boats have had Hurth boxes and have never had any kind of trouble, current boat is 12 years old. Only recently with a friend having bother have I got even slightly involved, I must say they are very fiddly things not what I expected at all.

[Bill]

Hi Maffi

 

The PRM box is a hydraulic box with an oil pump. The viscosity of gear oil would be to much for the pump to operate correctly.

 

 

Col,

 

I thought the PRM 120 was a manual box, 150 & above being hydraulic. My 120 goes clunk and I assumed it was because it was not a hydraulic system. Looks like most go clunk when going from fwd - reverse however they are actuated.

 

Bill

[Maffi]

Hi Maffi

 

The PRM box is a hydraulic box with an oil pump. The viscosity of gear oil would be to much for the pump to operate correctly.

 

 

So what you are saying is that the pump is not up to the job of pumping hydraulic oil in the gearbox.

 

Is that detrimental to the gears?

[Big COL]

So what you are saying is that the pump is not up to the job of pumping hydraulic oil in the gearbox.

 

Is that detrimental to the gears?

 

Maffi

 

What I said was " the pump would not be able to handle gear oil" Gear oil meaning heavy oil.

PRM hydraulic boxes obtain the drive for forward and reverse by engaging sets of clutches hydraulically.

The recommended oil is a light engine oil, hydraulic oil would probably work just as well, but I am unsure just what the lubricating properties are for hydraulic oils.

 

Col,

 

I thought the PRM 120 was a manual box, 150 & above being hydraulic. My 120 goes clunk and I assumed it was because it was not a hydraulic system. Looks like most go clunk when going from fwd - reverse however they are actuated.

 

Bill

 

Hi Bill

 

You are quite right the PRM 80 and 120 are manual select boxes. When answering Maffi I was referring to the 150 I have on my boat , as Maffi has seen my set up. Sorry for the confusion.

[Keeping Up]

Maffi

 

What I said was " the pump would not be able to handle gear oil" Gear oil meaning heavy oil.

PRM hydraulic boxes obtain the drive for forward and reverse by engaging sets of clutches hydraulically.

The recommended oil is a light engine oil, hydraulic oil would probably work just as well, but I am unsure just what the lubricating properties are for hydraulic oils.

Hi Bill

 

You are quite right the PRM 80 and 120 are manual select boxes. When answering Maffi I was referring to the 150 I have on my boat , as Maffi has seen my set up. Sorry for the confusion.

The PRM site says "All PRM gearbox units are designed for operation with normal engine specification lubricant - eliminating the need for special purpose automatic transmission fluid"

[David Schweizer]

The PRM site says "All PRM gearbox units are designed for operation with normal engine specification lubricant - eliminating the need for special purpose automatic transmission fluid"

We've been here before and the same people asked the same questions then. Obviously the Manufacturer's instructions are not good enough for some people

[Maffi]

We've been here before and the same people asked the same questions then. Obviously the Manufacturer's instructions are not good enough for some people

 

Have we? mmmmmm I don't recall.

 

It just seemed strange to me that, what on the surface should be a simple mechanism (1 fwd and 1 rev gear), does not use 'gear' oil.

 

My cars used gear oil in the gear box and those GB's that I encounter through my job actually use grease.

 

What do I know I'm a lecky

 

Whatever the book says is good enough for me, follow the book, that's my job, but it doesn't stop me from asking the most important question every one should ask whatever their skill/knowledge level.

 

Why?

 

We should question everything if it doesn't ring true. That IIRC is why we no longer suscribe to the flat earth theory or the idea of the sun revolving around the earth.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Maffi

[Richard Bustens]

BMC front wheel drives use engine oil in the gear box and diff. mini, 1100,1300 and 1800.

[John Orentas]

BMC front wheel drives use engine oil in the gear box and diff. mini, 1100,1300 and 1800.

 

And the Automatic Gearboxes were effectively in the sump of the engine, I wonder why they were a bit troublesome.