BS 8511

[Old Son]

Has anybody seen the new BS yet? I've been away so might have missed something. I've done a search but can find nothing on the forum.

[ChrisPy]

we have seen the draft. Is that what you meant?

[Dawnie]

As far as I know, no full document has been issued yet. When I return to work after New Year I will chase it up and see where it has got to

[Old Son]

I have seen the draft but was under the impression the full version was due out on 20th December.

[rjasmith]

I have seen the draft but was under the impression the full version was due out on 20th December.

 

I've been watching the BSonline (BSOL) website all last week in eager anticipation of the appearance of BS 8511 on 22 Dec in line with their last email to me. Somehow I suspected that it wouldn't happen and lo and behold it hasn't.

 

However BS did reply to my "mildly annoyed of Sussex" email on Christmas Eve (bit of a surprise!) to say that it was now expected on 19/1/10. I asked for more info as to why there was ongoing delay from the original planned issue back in October and they say they will give me a more detailed reply in the New Year. I'll relay what they say on here unless anyone else finds out first.

 

I've certainly heard rumours that the final issue has significant changes from the draft (eg some sort of exemption for back cabin stoves and possibly a relaxation of the factory insulated chimney requirement).

 

Happy Boxing Day!

 

Richard

[Old Son]

Thanks RJ. Look forward to their response

[rjasmith]

I've been watching the BSonline (BSOL) website all last week in eager anticipation of the appearance of BS 8511 on 22 Dec in line with their last email to me. Somehow I suspected that it wouldn't happen and lo and behold it hasn't.

 

(snipped)

 

Well - for anyone who can stand seeing this topic rear its head yet again, I can safely report that BSI have failed once more to stick to their forecast publishing date (originally we were told 20 Oct 2009, then 22 Dec 2009, then 19 Jan 2010!).

 

None of these have happened and today I got an email from BSI sort of promising some time in Feb! I have tried asking for more detail as to why there are constant delays and why a more realistic firm date can't be given but their responses so far seem to avoid going into much detail.

 

All very frustrating!!

 

Richard

[luctor et emergo]

Thanks for staying at it.

[GSer]

So where does that leave people like me who are in the process of fitting a solid fuel stove? Do I fit one, then get a BS cert or similar before the new legislation is announced?

 

I'd prefer to install it to the new specs but if its going to take a month or so I may not be able to wait that long.

 

Paul

[Mac of Cygnet]

So where does that leave people like me who are in the process of fitting a solid fuel stove? Do I fit one, then get a BS cert or similar before the new legislation is announced?

 

I'd prefer to install it to the new specs but if its going to take a month or so I may not be able to wait that long.

 

Paul

 

It's not going to be retrospective is it? If not, why not go ahead and install it safely to your own satisfaction or on the advice of a competent person, then you'll pass subsequent BSS's.

[GSer]

It's not going to be retrospective is it? If not, why not go ahead and install it safely to your own satisfaction or on the advice of a competent person, then you'll pass subsequent BSS's.

 

 

I suppose I was thinking that if I fitted the stove over a period say a month, then at the end of that month the new guide was published then I booked a BSS it may still fail

 

 

sorry its all 'ifs buts and maybes' but it is on my mind

 

Paul

[Québec]

So where does that leave people like me who are in the process of fitting a solid fuel stove? Do I fit one, then get a BS cert or similar before the new legislation is announced?

 

I'd prefer to install it to the new specs but if its going to take a month or so I may not be able to wait that long.

We were in exactly the same position, but went ahead and designed and built a new hearth and surround and installed a new stove. Just had a full safety inspection (and passed). Designed it around the principles (though NOT the actual detail) of the draft regulations and we're very happy with it. Fact remains that until new legislation comes in existing custom and practice still holds, but it seemed sensible to us to minimise the risks which are well documented. PM me if you want to know more.

[rjasmith]

So where does that leave people like me who are in the process of fitting a solid fuel stove? Do I fit one, then get a BS cert or similar before the new legislation is announced?

 

I'd prefer to install it to the new specs but if its going to take a month or so I may not be able to wait that long.

 

Paul

 

Agreed, I have the same problem as do quite a few others I suspect.

 

BS 8511 is only a Code of Practice produced by the British Standards Institution though and doesn't itself change the Boat Safety Scheme (unless BSS decide that they will change their guide and I've seen nothing about that yet - once it's out I shall drop them a line). It also won't change the RCD unless the European organisations that control the RCD decide to do something.

 

I'm not sure you can call it "legislation".

 

In time though I suspect insurance companies may refer to it to defend claims as a result of a fire caused by a solid fuel stove.

 

Why doesn't everyone who's annoyed about the constant delays drop an email to BSonline (use Google for address) asking BSI to hurry it up - I have!

 

Richard

[kayak]

Agreed, I have the same problem as do quite a few others I suspect.

 

BS 8511 is only a Code of Practice produced by the British Standards Institution though and doesn't itself change the Boat Safety Scheme (unless BSS decide that they will change their guide and I've seen nothing about that yet - once it's out I shall drop them a line). It also won't change the RCD unless the European organisations that control the RCD decide to do something.

 

I'm not sure you can call it "legislation".

 

In time though I suspect insurance companies may refer to it to defend claims as a result of a fire caused by a solid fuel stove.

 

Why doesn't everyone who's annoyed about the constant delays drop an email to BSonline (use Google for address) asking BSI to hurry it up - I have!

 

Richard

 

Been there and done that!

 

When it wasn't out on the 19th AGAIN, I called to ask what was going on and got nowhere so im afraid i got rather "vocal".

 

Frustrating.

 

Kayak.

[rjasmith]

Been there and done that!

 

When it wasn't out on the 19th AGAIN, I called to ask what was going on and got nowhere so im afraid i got rather "vocal".

 

Frustrating.

 

Kayak.

 

Actually you've got me thinking! I wonder if the BSS know what's going on at BSI? (there's too many "BS's in here!).

 

Might call or email them next unless anyone else has already done that!?

 

Richard

[Dawnie]

BSS sit on the committee, I was given the details name etc but they are at work but he is the one in charge of BSS

[rjasmith]

BSS sit on the committee, I was given the details name etc but they are at work but he is the one in charge of BSS

 

Thanks - I've emailed Dave Washer - will see what he says!

 

Richard

[Dawnie]

Original email

 

It was lovely to speak with you the other day.

I was wondering whether the committee would like some pictures of installations of solid fuel stoves in leisure craft or even a visit to some, especially an historic working boat?

I expect that this has already happened but thought I would make the offer to you and try to arrange something if you would like.

There is really one question I would like the answer to and that is whether this will be used retrospectively?

I can see that for a new build craft it would be easier to work round new proposals but if one was fitted retrospectively this could cause problems structurally.

Also what effect would this have on craft that already have stoves installed? I do know of some appalling installations and can see why this is all necessary but there are many safe installations out there that would not meet the new proposals as they stand.

Do you have the name of someone that I could contact on the Boat Safety Scheme about this? I would really appreciate it if you have.

 

Answer

 

Thank you for this - it was also very pleasant to speak with you again

For your information the Consultants appointed to undertake the drafting of the Code of Practice currently "out there for public comment" did visit a fair number of boat yards to inspect craft at various stages of construction along with some existing boats (with or without solid fuel heating installed) as part of the contract

As a result of the above your kind offer of help in respect of further inspections will at this stage not be required but thank you

As you know from our conversation this COP is being jointly developed by two BSI Committees (i) RHE/28 and (ii) GME/33.

RHE/28 is "responsible" for the technical " bits " relating to the appliance and chimney system with input from GME/33 on the construction and use of the products on completion

However, the one question you are seeking an answer to is outside the scope of RHE/28 and would therefore suggest that you contact Mr Graham Watts - Manager - Boat Safety Scheme (graham.watts@britishwaterways.co.uk) who can no doubt deal with the various issues you have raised

 

At the time and still now I was really concerned about retrospective guidance in the bss, I did not I am afraid have the time to follow it up.

[rjasmith]

FINALLY!!!

 

I logged on to BSi's website (BSOL) via Surrey Libraries this morning in my usual daily check to see if by any chance the dreaded BS 8511 has been published at last.

 

I nearly fell off my chair - there it was in all its glory as the final version! It wasn't there yesterday and the last estimated date was sometime in March - Well done BSi!

 

I've had a very quick skim through it and at first glance it does seem to be a more professionally presented document than the first draft. Certainly the example drawings of hearth and flue/chimney arrangements look more practical and better related to boat situations than to houses!

 

However the dreaded insulated chimney doesn't seem to have gone away although I'm going to study the words carefully to see what the "manoevring room" might be around this subject!

 

If you want a copy the price from BSi is £142 unless you're a BSi member when they discount it to a mere £71. Alternatively move to Surrey (or some other enlightened county!) and join the library where they allow you to log in at home and read (only) any BSi document for free!!

 

However it should be possible to read a paper copy (once they have become available) by visiting your local reference library in less enlightened counties.

 

Richard

[Old Son]

If it was a new film it would have been copied, pdf'd and available on line for free by now!!!

[kayak]

FINALLY!!!

 

I logged on to BSi's website (BSOL) via Surrey Libraries this morning in my usual daily check to see if by any chance the dreaded BS 8511 has been published at last.

 

I nearly fell off my chair - there it was in all its glory as the final version! It wasn't there yesterday and the last estimated date was sometime in March - Well done BSi!

 

I've had a very quick skim through it and at first glance it does seem to be a more professionally presented document than the first draft. Certainly the example drawings of hearth and flue/chimney arrangements look more practical and better related to boat situations than to houses!

 

However the dreaded insulated chimney doesn't seem to have gone away although I'm going to study the words carefully to see what the "manoevring room" might be around this subject!

 

If you want a copy the price from BSi is £142 unless you're a BSi member when they discount it to a mere £71. Alternatively move to Surrey (or some other enlightened county!) and join the library where they allow you to log in at home and read (only) any BSi document for free!!

 

However it should be possible to read a paper copy (once they have become available) by visiting your local reference library in less enlightened counties.

 

Richard

 

Ive just registerd with surry library and it says that access to the bsi from home is not possible at the moment but they are trying to rectify. How did you manage, i cant find a way?

 

Thanks.

 

Kayak.

[rjasmith]

Ive just registerd with surry library and it says that access to the bsi from home is not possible at the moment but they are trying to rectify. How did you manage, i cant find a way?

 

Thanks.

 

Kayak.

 

Have you been given a library membership no (mine is 7 digits long)? Then you have to choose a 4 digit PIN and register this with them. I seem to remember you have to actually visit a main library (I went to Guildford) to register and then it takes a day or two to become active but it was over 3 years ago that I did this and things may have changed.

 

On the Library website you go here to enter the Membership no and PIN, then click "Login" which takes you to another Surrey Library page. This one tells you you have logged in to BSOL via the library and tells you to click a link on the page. The link then transfers you to a search page on BSOL where you can enter the BS doc number or search by any keyword.

 

A title page about the doc comes up and such things as its price and other details are shown. The important bit is the "Open Document" button on this page. Click that and you should get a pdf of the whole document to browse! These days the pdf is embedded in the BSOL page which I imagine is done to make it harder to crack the password protection or something like that!

 

If none of this works for you I've found the library help line folks very helpful at solving access problems - there have been past occasions where either BSi or Surrey Libs websites have been upgraded and links have stopped working.

 

Seems to be working fine today though - I'm reading through 8511 at the moment - there's a splendid get out clause for back cabin stoves right at the beginning of it - HOORAY!!

 

Richard

[WotEver]

If you want a copy the price from BSi is £142 unless you're a BSi member when they discount it to a mere £71.

Or you can buy it from the US for $25.92 (plus $21 shipping via UPS) - about £30 total

 

How bizarre!

 

Tony

[kayak]

Have you been given a library membership no (mine is 7 digits long)? Then you have to choose a 4 digit PIN and register this with them. I seem to remember you have to actually visit a main library (I went to Guildford) to register and then it takes a day or two to become active but it was over 3 years ago that I did this and things may have changed.

 

On the Library website you go here to enter the Membership no and PIN, then click "Login" which takes you to another Surrey Library page. This one tells you you have logged in to BSOL via the library and tells you to click a link on the page. The link then transfers you to a search page on BSOL where you can enter the BS doc number or search by any keyword.

 

A title page about the doc comes up and such things as its price and other details are shown. The important bit is the "Open Document" button on this page. Click that and you should get a pdf of the whole document to browse! These days the pdf is embedded in the BSOL page which I imagine is done to make it harder to crack the password protection or something like that!

 

If none of this works for you I've found the library help line folks very helpful at solving access problems - there have been past occasions where either BSi or Surrey Libs websites have been upgraded and links have stopped working.

 

Seems to be working fine today though - I'm reading through 8511 at the moment - there's a splendid get out clause for back cabin stoves right at the beginning of it - HOORAY!!

 

Richard

 

 

Thanks for you reply, but sorry, ive just got in via Derbyshire librarys.

 

Makes for interesting reading, the OH is really happy now that we can get the stove in (she is a bit of a fire bug). Another plus side is i wont have to waste gas on heating. Firewood from here on in!

 

Kayak.

[rjasmith]

Or you can buy it from the US for $25.92 (plus $21 shipping via UPS) - about £30 total

 

How bizarre!

 

Tony

 

 

Tony, Don't buy that one whatever you do!!!

 

That's the draft version issued in Feb 2009 and is a pile of poo by comparison with the new issue. Still haven't read all the new one yet but so far it seems really quite good - what a surprise!

 

Richard