The famous "Oak faced Ply" !!

[David Schweizer]

I have to admit never used Rustins Danish Oil and acknowledge that its durability may be superior to the Danish Oil I have used which was based upon natural oil products. I have just read the full technical spec on Rustins Danish Oil and it does contain synthetic materials which makes it far closer technically to Varnish than any Oil Polishes I have ever used. It reminds me of the question once raised in the House of Commons about the legal definition of a sausage, when one member asked how much bread and milk products can you allow to be incorporated into a sausage before it becomes a cream bun? It seems that the Rustins Oil is in danger of being placed in a similar catagory. By the way the statement about Rustins Danish Oil requiring no skill they to apply are not my words, it comes directly from Rustins own advertising material.

 

To answer a couple of other points I would not recomend French Polish for the interior of a boat (although I bet The Royal Yacht Brittania had it) because it does not tolerate heavy wear, But I do not think painting the interior is heresy - Quite the opposite, it is the correct traditional method of painting Narrowboat cabins, after all Scumble is graining layed over a painted background. I have seen several Narrowboats with painted interiors and they were extreemly attractive.

 

Finally Chris, if you are buying your timber from Robbins ask their advice on suitable finishes. They are one of the few cabinet Makers stockists left and I would trust their judgement. Incidentally they are also one of the few places left where you can still purchase quarter cut veneers (if you can afford it)

[Richard Bustens]

Try these people

 

http://www.winwood-products.com/eng/timber...panels-name.htm

 

Right wood is a natural product and therefore absorbs moisture out of the air if the humidity is higher than the woods and gives off moisture if it is lower.

 

Varnish and most paints are a impervious coating that lets nothing pass through it, this is why we paint things like windowframes to stop water getting to the wood.

If you paint or varnish wood with a high moisture content not only do you stop the ingress of water you also stop it coming out so starting rot .

 

When you knock a bit out you then let in the moisture and becouse it is just a layer on top of the wood the moisture gets under and it starts to flake off, with oil it becomes part of the wood and will not flake off.

 

If you are using any form of covering on wood ie:- T&G you should put the same on the back and edges as the front to stop one side drying out or collecting moisture at a diferent rate from the other if one side collects moisture and the other does not then the side that has expands causing cupping.

 

You must also make sure that the moisture content is below 10% as most wood from B&Q ets will be much higher as high as 30% if so let it dry out naturaly and slowly

[David Schweizer]

I agree with the theory Richard, but in reality wood will absorb moisture whether it is painted or not which is why window casements start sticking in the winter. The paint or varnish may reduce the level of moisture but somehow it still gets in. Try this little ex[periment, cover a peice of dry timber with several coats of varnish, weigh and measure it then and leave it in a damp environment (the garden shed during the winter is ideal) After several month I bet it will weigh more and will have expanded.

 

The advice on storing timber before use is good advice, but I would not restrict it to timber bought from B&Q etc. Most Yards store their timber outside in open sided sheds and the moisture content of some timbers can be far too high particularly if purchased in the winter. I always try to purcahase timber several months in advance of using it, and store it in the same type of environment as it will eventuallly be used. This not only garantees minimum disturbance once the timber is in use, but also provides the opportunity to ensure that the the timber does not warp or sdevelope any shakes. The yard I normally use will always replace boards that have distorted ior split in storage.

[Richard Bustens]

Yes you are right , but i once ordered 40 lengths of 3 x 4 from dewsons as a repeat order and i asked the man could he supply me with wet warped and bent lengths.

He replied no sir we dont stock wood like that.

So i said to him thats funny the wood i had last week from you was like that..

 

I stored that wood on a sloping floor in a theatre i was renovating and the water was trickling down the slope after 3 days.

 

I know moisture will still get past varnish etc but in very small quantities and probably through the joints etc that have no paint on them lets face it todays builders dont bother to prime undercoat or protect the frames they fit before fitting just the bits that show.

 

But we must agree to differ on this one as i said before i have only used oil for the last 10/20 years and to now have had no problems, do you not think that if it was available thet chipendale etc would not have used it, i think that The Mouse man of Kilbourn is probably the finest cabinet maker of the day and i bet he uses it.

[stuart]

If you look at these pictures on this narrowboat for sale, what sort of finish/wood is this?

 

http://www.abnb.demon.co.uk/fdr999/999abnb.htm

[Richard Bustens]

Probably Ash with mahogany trim as it looks to light for oak

[dor]

Quote: "If you look at these pictures on this narrowboat for sale, what sort of finish/wood is this?"

 

OTT ply to my eye!

[Oliver]

According to the brokerage blurb

 

Fit-out materials: Maple faced-ply/blockboard, sapele trim

 

How do people know so much about wood?

 

David has put his 'credentials' up - trained by a master cabinet maker

 

What about Richard and John?

[stuart]

According to the brokerage blurb

 

Fit-out materials: Maple faced-ply/blockboard, sapele trim

 

Whoops - missed that

[Richard Bustens]

According to the brokerage blurb

 

Fit-out materials: Maple faced-ply/blockboard, sapele trim

 

How do people know so much about wood? 

 

David has put his 'credentials' up - trained by a master cabinet maker

 

What about Richard and John?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ttrained as school in the 60s when teaching was done properley ( except spelling ) and 40 years of experiance as a hobby.

If i could work out how to put pictures on the site i would show some examples of my work that can speak for themselves.

[David Schweizer]

Yes I would have said Maple (easy to say that in hindsight), quite an attractive timber with a subtle fine grain, although the photos do not do it justice. Unlike Oak or Ash it does not darken very much with age. Now would anyone like to give a precise definition of Sapele? I have always understood this to be generic term for a range of West African Red hardwoods from a variety of species. at its best it can claim to be a reasonable substitute for Mahogany, at it's worst it is pink, bland and unattracticve. The photos would suggest that the fitter has selected his timbers well, either that or he has made liberal use of maghogany stain (quite a common trick)

[timboharticus]

We should all use wood from "sustainable" sources, not from some poor old tribe in Brazil/Indonesia.

[Gary Stacey]

Not to my taste that boat, thought it looked too cold and bland. I much prefer some of the offerings from braidbar who seem to mix colour detaing and panels with rich woods to great effect.

 

Gary

[Richard Bustens]

The amount of timber that is felled for our use is small compaired to the amount they use for cooking and heating.

But that does not mean i do not agree we shound use timber from "sustainable" sources.

And anyway the best timber is from this country but the price is twice as much, American oak T & T is about £14 a cube where as English or French is £25 but four times as nice.

[Guest]

Feel I must add to this debate! I have used a large can of teak oil from a timber suppliers on plywood. I have been very pleased with the finish on electric guitars I have made years ago, and thus far the finish appears fine on the boat. It certainly has dried ok, but requires a couple more coats and waxing. On guitars it is easy to repair if you scratch it and I assume the boat will be similar. Time will tell!

[Richard Bustens]

Hi

Yes Stan, it is good stuff as i said and i use nothing else these days.

But just one thing i must mention in case someone gets some and not thinking just uses it.

IT IS PRONE TO SPONTAINIOUS IGNITION on the rag you use if left on the side, dont get woried about this it is safe to use, but you must dispose of the wet oil soaked rag after use, i always burn them as i finish with them.

For a trick you can tie a knot in the wet rag and pull it tight it sometimes will catch fire in frount of your eyes.

Hope this has not put anyone off using it as the benifits are greater than the risk.

[rustyduck]

So, it's wax over oil and never mind the flames.

 

I must confess to never hearing about the spontaneous combustion before, but it's not something I've encountered in several years using teak oil, so I wont get too worried - just yet.

[John Orentas]

Rusty.

 

Pass my hat back. I am pretty sure that Teak Oil is in fact Linseed Oil. Either boiled or non boiled, I can never remember.

 

John Squeers

[rustyduck]

A quick Googling for teak oil suggests:

 

"Teak oils are primarily either linseed oil or tung oil, bolstered by resins to make them more durable. Linseed oil tends to darken the teak, but it is significantly cheaper. Tung oil doesn't darken the wood, and it is more water resistant than linseed oil-a notable advantage for boat use. However, a month or two after application, it may be hard to discern that much difference since both oils carbonise in the sun and turn dark. Proprietary teak oils address this problem with various additives, including pigments, UV filters, and mildew retardants. Some that perform admirably in one climate are reviled in another. If you are going to oil your teak, make your teak oil selection based on the recommendations of other boat owners in your area."

 

None the wiser, but happy to post.

 

[David Schweizer]

You chaps are doing nothing to persuade me that all these fancy oil finishes are anything but a nightmare to use. As I have said before why put up with all this bother when three coats of a good quality varnish can be applied quite easily over three days, and then you can forget about maintenance for the next ten years.

[Richard Bustens]

Hi Dave

Not trying to convince you , it is a matter of taste,varnish is dificult to put on and not as durable as oil, i always think varnish looks taky and amature applied unless sprayed, oil is as easy as dusting to put on the compleate boat woodwork can be freshened up every 3-4 years and i would think 2 or 3 hrs would do the lot, with no flaky bits or scrapes to rub down.

Ive got bedroom units and other furnature i have made that are 10 years old never been re-done and look as new

And Dawn wont use the proper bees wax i use only spray stuff, so i do everything once every year or so with proper wax .

[David Schweizer]

I don't know what you have been using Richard but the varnish I apply is neither Tacky or amateuerish, nor does it flake after a few years . One of the secrets is proper preparation. The timber should be flatted with P180 cabinet paper, lightly washed with water, allowed to dry and flatted again, and then wiped down with White Spirit. The quality of the Varnish is important, I gave up using any of the more readily available brands years ago and now only use Blackfriars. The Varnish should be of the of the correct consistency, ie. nice and runny, and be applied with a good quality Varnish Brush. I use either Hamilton Perfection or Anza Classic brushes neither of which are cheap but the results are worth it. It is also advisable to use the widest brush you can get into the tin. The varnish should be applied quckly and evenly, On large panels by using the "Union Jack" method - Diagonally in both directions followed by vertical and horizontal (or vice versa) laying off in the direction of the grain, On narrow boards only apply in the direction of the grain. Work fast, avoid applying too much and always keep a wet edge to work against and do not go back and fiddle with the finish. The varnish should flatten out within ten minutes or so, and if applied correctly, should produce a smooth blemish free surface. For susequent coats, the surface should be flatted with P180 cabinet paper between coats and washed down with white Spirit before the next coat is applied. If you use satin finish and buff it with beeswax a few days after application, but before the surface has completely hardened, you will produce a hand rubbed finish not disimilar in appearance to Oil Polish, except that it will last for years before requiring any further attention.

 

I would emphasise that I am only advocationg the use of Varnish on surfaces such as the matchboard lining on a boat where durability is paramount. As far as any (mainly Mahogany) furniture that I restore is concerned, I use traditional Oil Polish (seem my earlier posting), followed by a good buffing with Beeswax.

 

I agree with you as far as Spray on Polish is concerned, it contains polymers which if they get into the wood prevent the further application of any type of finish, and can leave the wood with dark patches which are impossible to remove. The evil stuff is banned from my house, which means that I have to polish the furniture using pure Beeswax Polish.

[Richard Bustens]

Hi David

I Must admit i have not used varnish for over 10 years, and will give it a try again as things partiqualy brushes have improved lots.

You say you rub down with 180, ( that must be for rubbing out the runs ) i start at 400 for nibbing and finish with either 800 or 0000 wire wool, the coarest anything i possess is 320 DA pads.

[David Schweizer]

I should have mentioned that I was refering to Pine matchboard and I use it lightly, but yes it probobly should be finer than P180 but I tend to start with that and by the time I throw the paper away it has become less effective than P800. When I am working on Hardwood such as Mahogany I usually finish off with a cabinet scraper and/or 0000 steel wool.

 

As far as paper is concerned I only use good quality Cabinet Paper not Glass paper which tends to be far more agressive and really only suitble for flatting down old paintwork (on the House not the Boat)

[Richard Bustens]

Ar one of those tight wads that starts out with 40 grit and uses it till it becomes 800 lol

In fairness i have never used oil on pine or simular as i dont use it, only for outside then use cuprinol.