BW Mooring consultation

[Smelly]

Transport Act 1962 s43(8)

 

The services and facilities referred to in subsection (3) of this section include, in the case of the British Waterways Board, the use of any inland waterway owned or managed by them by any ship or boat.

 

So the use of the waterway is such a facility. The waterway itself remains discrete. Fair to say i've lost the thread a bit, err... oh yes, the waterway itself, and hence presumably the towpath is not a facility, although it's use may be.

 

So I suppose, stretching the point, mooring against the towpath would be that use (I'm sure we've agreed about this elsewhere BTW, I'm just bouncing to try and figure something out).

[tomsk]

The problem is that there are those on the waterways who are busy looking for every possible loophole, and way to get around every rule that BW apply.

 

They would tie BW up in court for months arguing that BW has no power to add the charges to next years renewal.

 

 

Which would be correct.

 

The problem with complaining that people 'would tie BW up in court for months arguing that BW has no power to add the charges to next years renewal.' is that they would have every right to do so, indeed to not challenge such possibly illegal action would be spineless and against the common interest of all boaters. Of course, if a suitably legally qualified Judge ruled that such actions by BW were legal, then I would have no issue with such actions.

Edited November 25, 2009 by tomsk

[luctor et emergo]

But but but but, as the licence fee is set then they can't add it to next year's renewal, they can just bring about an enforceable liability.

 

 

Is BW required to provide an applicant with a licence, or do you request a licence on BW terms? Reason I ask this (in laymans terms, I'm not a legal trainee, although it would help on this forum... ), is that it should be possible for BW to refuse the granting of a licence, if any outstanding fines are not paid, or the terms of the licence are not met. Do you have an automatic right to get a licence?

[Chris Pink]

The problem is that there are those on the waterways who are busy looking for every possible loophole, and way to get around every rule that BW apply.

 

They would tie BW up in court for months arguing that BW has no power to add the charges to next years renewal.

 

Trouble is Mr Mayall, that there are those of us who, for many years, have been using the canals in accordance with the law, whether or not it is convenient for us to do so, to find that what we are accustomed to doing has, for no apparent reason or prior consutaltion, become illegal.

 

You will no doubt forgive us if we then ask some rather searching questions as to the powers used to make such changes. especially when the answers are on the lines of "'we can do what we want and now go away and paint your boat lime green"

.

 

So I suppose, stretching the point, mooring against the towpath would be that use

 

This is exactly so and it is held that the licence to use the waterways that BW may charge for under 1962 43(8) includes the right to moor along the towpath, subject of course, to the strictures of the 1995 Act in the case of those without a home mooring.

[mayalld]

Trouble is Mr Mayall, that there are those of us who, for many years, have been using the canals in accordance with the law, whether or not it is convenient for us to do so, to find that what we are accustomed to doing has, for no apparent reason or prior consutaltion, become illegal.

 

You say that as if this was something unique to boating.

 

Happens all the time in the real world.

 

Would you like examples?

[Chris Pink]

Do you have an automatic right to get a licence?

 

No. You have to satisfy the terms of the 1995 Act Section 17(3) (and only those terms) in order to get a licence.

 

Would you like examples?

 

yes please.

 

Although I find that you have selectively quoted me, please don't use that to throw in spurious examples.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Chris Pink

[mayalld]

yes please.

 

OK;

 

Hunting with hounds

Using a mobile phone at the wheel

Various Shooting activities

[Chris Pink]

OK;

 

Hunting with hounds

Using a mobile phone at the wheel

Various Shooting activities

 

Aha. You fell straight into the elephant trap, with spikes tipped in lime green paint.

 

All those examples were the result of primary legislation and thus were subject (in the loosest possible use of the term) to the democratic process.

[mayalld]

This is exactly so and it is held that the licence to use the waterways that BW may charge for under 1962 43(8) includes the right to moor along the towpath, subject of course, to the strictures of the 1995 Act in the case of those without a home mooring.

 

OK, so....

 

• s43 of the 1962 Act gives BW a right to charge for, and regulate, use of the waterways
  
• mooring along the towpath is included in that charge
  

As such, casual mooring is, by your own argument, a service or facility

 

Aha. You fell straight into the elephant trap, with spikes tipped in lime green paint.

 

All those examples were the result of primary legislation and thus were subject (in the loosest possible use of the term) to the democratic process.

 

Were they?

 

Are you absolutely SURE about that?

 

Would you like to check again?

 

At least one of these was achieved using secondary legislation.

[Chris Pink]

:-)

 

So, they have to be imaginitive!

 

Double the licence fee with immediate effect.

 

Introduce a 50% discount for applicants who have no outstanding debt to BW.

 

Simples.

 

I am not quite sure why you should think it a Good Thing for a public corporation to be creative with the law in order to achieve ends that are not covered by the extensive powers that they do have which they don't enforce.

 

There is an enormous body of legislation for the management of the waterways. Are we really expected to believe that BW cannot run the waterways to the satisfaction of the majority of users by simply taking the law by its literal and therefore unarguable meaning?

[ashanta]

You're not looking hard enough.

 

The only mooring I pay for is my permanent berth.

 

The East coast is riddled with free anchorages and, if you ask nicely, free temporary moorings.

 

I am considering sinking a mooring at one a few possible locations where the only fee will be the laying of the mooring and, should I choose not to do it myself, its subsequent maintenance.

 

I dont know where your looking to sink a mooring but I will be very suprised that the land you are mooring on is not owned by someone. You may not pay now and you may not pay in the future as I dont know the situation is there but I do know the crown estates are now levying rent on thousands of moorings nationally that were once belived to freehold to the boat owner, I own my mooring on Exe Estuary and I was rent free until 1993 when Lord Courtney (Earl of Devon) got on the band wagon and started leving charges against all moorings on the Exe (up to Cockwood) Despite whatever legal action was taken against him, he won. (SWAN) I have paid rising annual fee ever since which is related to the length of my yacht. I have to prove 3rd party liability ins and I have to continually maintain my mooring to their satisfaction.

Have a look on the YBW website for threads on this subject and you will see that wherever there is an opportunity to obtain revenue charges are applied. Most decent harbours and rivers now ensure their authorities charge for anchoring when it used to be free. I can give you examples of many places o the SW coast where this has changed only in the past 10 years.

[mayalld]

I am not quite sure why you should think it a Good Thing for a public corporation to be creative with the law in order to achieve ends that are not covered by the extensive powers that they do have which they don't enforce.

 

There is an enormous body of legislation for the management of the waterways. Are we really expected to believe that BW cannot run the waterways to the satisfaction of the majority of users by simply taking the law by its literal and therefore unarguable meaning?

 

Yes.

 

It is abundantly clear that there are those who are determined to do as they please, regardless of the impact that their actions might have on others.

 

In order to establish simple, proportionate responses to low-level problematic behaviour, BW need to be creative with their powers, rather than taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut approach, and taking every miscreant down the s8 route.

 

In any case, let us have a level playing field. Those who wish to get away with more seek to be creative with the law, and what's sauce for the goose...

[ashanta]

I am not quite sure why you should think it a Good Thing for a public corporation to be creative with the law in order to achieve ends that are not covered by the extensive powers that they do have which they don't enforce.

 

There is an enormous body of legislation for the management of the waterways. Are we really expected to believe that BW cannot run the waterways to the satisfaction of the majority of users by simply taking the law by its literal and therefore unarguable meaning?

 

 

Well said. I believe your few words are exactly what I have been trying to convey.

[Chris Pink]

As such, casual mooring is, by your own argument, a service or facility

 

You are disappearing up your own argument here.

 

Otherwise we could be charged for winding.

 

And i am sorry, but if you are going to vaguely wave "various shooting activities" at me you cannot expect me to track down every instance of such a thing and i have no doubt with a bit of effort you can point out instances where legislation is bent for nefarious purpose.

 

Then i refer you to the 2nd part of my statement that you effectively misquoted.

[Naughty Cal]

I dont know where your looking to sink a mooring but I will be very suprised that the land you are mooring on is not owned by someone. You may not pay now and you may not pay in the future as I dont know the situation is there but I do know the crown estates are now levying rent on thousands of moorings nationally that were once belived to freehold to the boat owner, I own my mooring on Exe Estuary and I was rent free until 1993 when Lord Courtney (Earl of Devon) got on the band wagon and started leving charges against all moorings on the Exe (up to Cockwood) Despite whatever legal action was taken against him, he won. (SWAN) I have paid rising annual fee ever since which is related to the length of my yacht. I have to prove 3rd party liability ins and I have to continually maintain my mooring to their satisfaction.

Have a look on the YBW website for threads on this subject and you will see that wherever there is an opportunity to obtain revenue charges are applied. Most decent harbours and rivers now ensure their authorities charge for anchoring when it used to be free. I can give you examples of many places o the SW coast where this has changed only in the past 10 years.

 

As do the rest of us.

[mayalld]

You are disappearing up your own argument here.

 

Otherwise we could be charged for winding.

 

And i am sorry, but if you are going to vaguely wave "various shooting activities" at me you cannot expect me to track down every instance of such a thing and i have no doubt with a bit of effort you can point out instances where legislation is bent for nefarious purpose.

 

Shooting isn't the one that was achieved through secondary legislation.

[Chris Pink]

It is abundantly clear that there are those who are determined to do as they please, regardless of the impact that their actions might have on others.

 

 

And there was me thinking that the microcosm that is the canals was a fluffy place free from the incivility and disregard for the law and common sense that pervades the whole of our society.

 

 

You frequently argue that 2 wrongs make a right. I am sorry but this is contrary to my upbringing and beliefs.

[mayalld]

And there was me thinking that the microcosm that is the canals was a fluffy place free from the incivility and disregard for the law and common sense that pervades the whole of our society.

 

 

You frequently argue that 2 wrongs make a right. I am sorry but this is contrary to my upbringing and beliefs.

 

What are you saying is a wrong here?

[ashanta]

As do the rest of us.

If BW change and move to a more commercially based organisation with entry of 3rd Party's you will need more than your insurance. If you want travel and stay over night at popular locations you will likely have to pay for the privilege. It may not happen immediately but when it does it moves quickly. I indicated in my previous post, that you kindly highlighted, that I have seen this happen around our coast. The limitations are significant due to movement being based on whether you can afford to pay the charges. In 2005 it cost me £26.50 to stay in Torquay marina for one night. I didnt use electricity. The council have since opened up a new marina there and I stayed there one night this summer and it cost me £20.00. Now some may say £20 is bad enough (I sail single handed so it only one person paying the bill) It was considerably than prevuiously and it shows you that the business will charge as much as they can get if the market can take it. There always those who are willing to pay the higher prices because they can. Sadly those that cannot have do without or find a poor alternative.

All I am saying is that it seems there is a huge commercial opportunity in selective areas of the country and if BW get into bed with those interested party's there could be significant change which will cost and or restrict.

[Naughty Cal]

If BW change and move to a more commercially based organisation with entry of 3rd Party's you will need more than your insurance. If you want travel and stay over night at popular locations you will likely have to pay for the privilege. It may not happen immediately but when it does it moves quickly. I indicated in my previous post, that you kindly highlighted, that I have seen this happen around our coast. The limitations are significant due to movement being based on whether you can afford to pay the charges. In 2005 it cost me £26.50 to stay in Torquay marina for one night. I didnt use electricity. The council have since opened up a new marina there and I stayed there one night this summer and it cost me £20.00. Now some may say £20 is bad enough (I sail single handed so it only one person paying the bill) It was considerably than prevuiously and it shows you that the business will charge as much as they can get if the market can take it. There always those who are willing to pay the higher prices because they can. Sadly those that cannot have do without or find a poor alternative.

All I am saying is that it seems there is a huge commercial opportunity in selective areas of the country and if BW get into bed with those interested party's there could be significant change which will cost and or restrict.

 

If you would care to read my reply to the last time you raised this you will get the answer you want.

 

There are still (and will still be ) plenty of free visitor moorings. Paying or not paying will be your choice much as it is now.

 

£20 is about the going rate for mooring overnight in a coastal marina, if you dont like it dont go, your choice.

[ashanta]

If you would care to read my reply to the last time you raised this you will get the answer you want.

 

There are still (and will still be ) plenty of free visitor moorings. Paying or not paying will be your choice much as it is now.

 

£20 is about the going rate for mooring overnight in a coastal marina, if you dont like it dont go, your choice.

 

I did read your comment.

 

On the South Coast from £15 - £20 for a pick up mooring or rafting up on a pontoon. The average marina berth is far more expensive. MDL have been the main reason.

 

In you statement above you confirm exactly the point I have been making. you get a commercial arena. Currently BW doesnt operate an commercial enterprise but if elements are handed over to 3rd party's those elements will become commercial and cost will go up.

 

You point about "if you dont like it dont go" should read "what happens when you can't cant afford it?" I am fortunate that I can but when circumstances change through market forces casualties are inevitable. From the boating enjoyment they once enjoyed many people find themselves unable to afford the high costs introduced. I seen a big reduction in the numbers of friends/aquaintances I have known over the years staying overnight at weekends in the popular areas. These locations are always full of (often bigger and newer) boats. The market can sustain the higher charges. That is evident.

Friends in the Club I am a member of are constantly researching / investigating opportunities to find overnight moorings that are not too prohibitive when they are planning cruises.

Probably one of the reason why I prefer to sail my boat in France as there are many french sailors with small boats on a limited budget and that seems to considered and catered for.

IMHO I would not like to see BW's to become a commercial enterprise or to have an association with commercial agents as the water will there for the well off and the less fortunate will pick up scraps.

[Chris Pink]

Probably one of the reason why I prefer to sail my boat in France as there are many french sailors with small boats on a limited budget and that seems to considered and catered for.

 

France has always had a more egalitarian attitude to access to public resource.

 

The peasants in England would never tell their masters to let them share the stuff we all own. Pathetic.

[ashanta]

If you would care to read my reply to the last time you raised this you will get the answer you want.

 

There are still (and will still be ) plenty of free visitor moorings. Paying or not paying will be your choice much as it is now.

 

£20 is about the going rate for mooring overnight in a coastal marina, if you dont like it dont go, your choice.

 

 

Just received a request by email by BW to sign a petition to Downing street. They believe the Government is going to sell the canal network. God help us if they do so as the only free mooring you will be able to use is one that you dont want.

Can you imagine if it is broken up regionally? You could paying for the region you reside and you may to pay each time you cross into a different region for the benefit of travelling.

I see very interesting times ahead. The Government has appeared in the past to view BW (as a body) to be unimportant and has restricted it's budget when there has been a need to fund other "more important" departments. Once the analysts have given the government the attractive data they seek i'm sure the decision will not be a difficult one.

Maybe it's time to start thinking of drawing my pension in France.

[Naughty Cal]

I dont know what planet you reside in but it doesnt appear to be this one

 

The documents are on the BW website for how they plan to introuce these mooring trials. If you care to read them instead of making up your own fairy stories and tales of hardship it would maybe answer some of your questions.

[ashanta]

I dont know what planet you reside in but it doesnt appear to be this one

 

The documents are on the BW website for how they plan to introuce these mooring trials. If you care to read them instead of making up your own fairy stories and tales of hardship it would maybe answer some of your questions.

 

I'm not making up fairy stories. Maybe you are the one that doesn't understand what is being said. I was not referring to mooring trials!

 

Lets just recap.

 

You responded to me previously about the coastal issues when I said it could possibly be replicated inland in the future but you obviously felt you wanted to contradict me. Despite the fact that I have sailed the UK coast since I was a child and have owned a yacht for the past 30 years you want to disagree about what has physically happened and then say if you dont want to pay the "high" prices basically do without which in fact was agrreing with my initial point that those that can afford are ok but those who once enjoyed but now cannot afford do without.. The freedom once enjoyed has been seriously restricted due to the introduction of commercial elements.

 

The petition is about the network being sold off. It's not about trial moorings!

 

"You may know about the media speculation that the Government intends to include the British Waterways’ property portfolio as a component of the £16bn asset sale.

 

The Government has made no announcements and is steadfastly refusing to be drawn on the subject.

 

We have been using this period of silence as a window of opportunity to lobby Ministers. We have orchestrated a political lobby in both the Commons and latterly the Lords to pressurise Government, and have briefed radio and national TV, using an array of reasons to support the argument that a sale would be in no-one’s interest."