secondery loop

[Naughty Cal]

i am surprised how many people on hear are verry happy with the waste i thought we were all surposed to be doing our bit

 

Thats just it, it isnt wasted. Ours fills the kettle and gets teeth brushed before showers. I think your estimates of the amount of water involved may be wrong. Measure it next time.

[number four]

But you want to save water. That will waste more than your 2 or 3 litres from the hot tap!

 

no the cold tap

and its not waste its cosumption and most nb use fresh water flush i think

as i said i am looking at this as well GOT ANY IDEARS!!

[RLWP]

as its the wife who nearly always fills the tank she is very awear of the advantage.

i am surprised how many people on hear are verry happy with the waste i thought we were all surposed to be doing our bit

 

I guess I can't really get worked up about the way you are. If you are really talking about waste, then how are you accounting for the electricity in running pumps, or energy in manufacturing extra pipe, fittings, pumps and circuits.

 

In reality, you could save far more water by washing your boat once less per year.

 

Richard

 

(On reflection, if we washed Tawny Owl once less per year, she'd never get washed at all...)

[number four]

Thats just it, it isnt wasted. Ours fills the kettle and gets teeth brushed before showers. I think your estimates of the amount of water involved may be wrong. Measure it next time.

 

i have mesured it.

i know my spelling is realy bad but please read what i print.

[nb Innisfree]

i had considered this option but that meens it will curculate 24/7 and that would bleed of heat and stop the hot water tank from keeping the hot water at the top i would have all warm. until new heat was intrduced.

 

phylis

you are judging me by your standards and boat use without knowing mine.

at prescent i run a fare size boat see my avitar and i did mesure the amount of water it takes to get hot to the taps and multiplyed by use.

we are livabord.

and at least 2 people have not dismised my idear.

this system is used a lot in large domestic and industrial systems but the priorety is not wasting water.

when crusing we find ore bigest cocern is finding water (we plan on 1000l) at our prescent consumption this will last 8-10days

so we are looking at this and other ways to save water and keeping our standard of living.

 

You are thinking constructively and outside the box. We tackled this prob by planning two calorifiers in the fitout. One is next to the shower, 5 sec warm up, the other is next to kitchen sink (10 sec). Even so I would still like to make it instantaneous, why not it's only simple technology. Maybe you could have some sort of push button valve to return cold to tank or pump inlet using existing pump pressure? you are going to need more pipe runs anyway. I think one of those timed push button valves used with showers? gives an adjustable on time and is all mechanical, Or a temp sensor working with a flow switch to make valve or secondary pump automatic. (cold flow on hot water pipe opens valve or turns on sec pump, hot flow closes valve or shuts off sec pump.

 

I hate waiting for water to run hot!

 

The world's your lobster, but whatever you do have fun.

Edited October 28, 2009 by nb Innisfree

[number four]

I guess I can't really get worked up about the way you are. If you are really talking about waste, then how are you accounting for the electricity in running pumps, or energy in manufacturing extra pipe, fittings, pumps and circuits.

 

In reality, you could save far more water by washing your boat once less per year.

 

Richard

 

(On reflection, if we washed Tawny Owl once less per year, she'd never get washed at all...)

 

i know what you are saying and we can go round and round with this.

1kw of solar and only wash the boat in the rain once a week

 

perhaps i should have asked if anyone could see why it wont work tecnackly.

[Ray]

You're not wasting it.

 

It goes in the canal if its unwanted by you and does its bit to keep the levels up. If you didn't put it there, someone else would have to. However, if you're on a river then I concede that it is probably wasted.

[Naughty Cal]

Well other water saving tips could be only using as much as necessary for cooking, not over filling pans etc, only washing pots when you have a sink full. Shorter showers.

[number four]

You are thinking constructively and outside the box. We tackled this prob by planning two calorifiers in the fitout. One is next to the shower, 5 sec warm up, the other is next to kitchen sink (10 sec). Even so I would still like to make it instantaneous, why not it's only simple technology. Maybe you could have some sort of push button valve to return cold to tank or pump inlet using existing pump pressure? you are going to need more pipe runs anyway. I think one of those timed push button valves used with showers? gives an adjustable on time and is all mechanical, Or a temp sensor working with a flow switch to make valve or secondary pump automatic. (cold flow on hot water pipe opens valve or turns on sec pump, hot flow closes valve or shuts off sec pump.

 

I hate waiting for water to run hot!

 

The world's your lobster, but whatever you do have fun.

 

it would be nice to remove the human elimate but it begins to complecate it tecnicaly

also with my system it will fail safe and i will have to take the kettle for a shower till its fixed.

[RLWP]

i know what you are saying and we can go round and round with this.

1kw of solar and only wash the boat in the rain once a week

 

perhaps i should have asked if anyone could see why it wont work tecnackly.

 

The only technicality I can see is about how many hot water branches you have. If a pipe runs up one side of the boat, you then pump from the end of that pipe back to the calorifier inlet it will work fine. Tawny Owl has hot water pipes running up both sides*, so I think we would need two pumps.

 

Richard

 

*There are sinks and showers on both sides of the boat

[number four]

Well other water saving tips could be only using as much as necessary for cooking, not over filling pans etc, only washing pots when you have a sink full. Shorter showers.

 

we use a dish washer because it uses less water

should i get my coat?

 

let me stress our main reason for reducing water consumption is so we can stay in one place for longer away from any services.

 

The only technicality I can see is about how many hot water branches you have. If a pipe runs up one side of the boat, you then pump from the end of that pipe back to the calorifier inlet it will work fine. Tawny Owl has hot water pipes running up both sides*, so I think we would need two pumps.

 

Richard

 

*There are sinks and showers on both sides of the boat

 

or join the two togeather at the ends and pump round

[Naughty Cal]

we use a dish washer because it uses less water

should i get my coat?

 

let me stress our main reason for reducing water consumption is so we can stay in one place for longer away from any services.

 

I would worry more about your power consumption than your water consumption with the amount of electrical items you have

[nb Innisfree]

I guess I can't really get worked up about the way you are. If you are really talking about waste, then how are you accounting for the electricity in running pumps, or energy in manufacturing extra pipe, fittings, pumps and circuits.

 

In reality, you could save far more water by washing your boat once less per year.

 

Richard

 

(On reflection, if we washed Tawny Owl once less per year, she'd never get washed at all...)

 

Couldn't you forego all mod cons in your boat and save the planet? water in a Buckby wash with canal water, candles, and a thick wooly jumper. I assume you don't live in a house and your boat is just for pleasure, God forbid

[number four]

I would worry more about your power consumption than your water consumption with the amount of electrical items you have

 

did i mention the twin tub,combi microwave oven,tv,pc,electric windlas and bow thruster

[RLWP]

or join the two togeather at the ends and pump round

 

That doesn't work. Your problem is that the pipes between the calorifier and the tap are full of cold water. If you join and pump around, you pump cold water around in circles.

 

You need to be drawing hot water from the calorifier by displacing it with cold from the pipes, so the end of your pumped return connects to the inlet of the calorifier.

 

Richard

[nb Innisfree]

it would be nice to remove the human elimate but it begins to complecate it tecnicaly

also with my system it will fail safe and i will have to take the kettle for a shower till its fixed.

 

True but a mechanical push valve and a single length of pipe back to pump inlet doesn't come any simpler and it's as foolproof as you'll get. No extra pumps or wiring.

[RLWP]

Couldn't you forego all mod cons in your boat and save the planet? water in a Buckby wash with canal water, candles, and a thick wooly jumper. I assume you don't live in a house and your boat is just for pleasure, God forbid

 

Hey, it isn't my idea! I'm just enjoying the mental exercise.

 

Richard

Edited October 28, 2009 by RLWP

[Strads]

Sounds like the issue isnt the amount of water saved - but not wanting to fll up so frequently -

 

a known fact of life especially as a live aboard.. each to their own, but flogging a near dead horse comes to mind..

 

I'd be looking to shower alternate days or even every 3rd day.. .. or go back to sundays and birthdays...

 

 

hey ho

[blodger]

Well other water saving tips could be only using as much as necessary for cooking, not over filling pans etc, only washing pots when you have a sink full. Shorter showers.

Clearly that is not what the topic starter wasasking about originally. He wants to save the water which would otherwise go down the plughole while your waiting for the hot to come through.

 

Depending on positioning of pumps and taps and how you can hide the pipes and harping back to what one poster was saying about using what's there, is it feasible to just have a valve before the hot taps as a diverter routed back to the input side of the pump so that you are sending the "waste" back to the cold tank. Presumably you would get used to how long it took to run off the cold. Cannot see how you could automate it or make it pretty but it would save a pump?

[number four]

That doesn't work. Your problem is that the pipes between the calorifier and the tap are full of cold water. If you join and pump around, you pump cold water around in circles.

 

You need to be drawing hot water from the calorifier by displacing it with cold from the pipes, so the end of your pumped return connects to the inlet of the calorifier.

 

Richard

 

i forgot to point out that you would need to do some plumbing at the other end but it would save runing pipes full length

take one of the hot feeds and conect betwen water pump and cold feed to hot tank with non retern valve, and as said join ends together at far end of boat now pump as i have segesed with a press and hold switch on pump.

hope i have maid sence

[RLWP]

True but a mechanical push valve and a single length of pipe back to pump inlet doesn't come any simpler and it's as foolproof as you'll get. No extra pumps or wiring.

 

That's very clever. To be safe you should probably have an NRV just before where the return pipe is teed in just in case you start flushing hot water back up cold lines.

 

Hold on...

 

If you have one pump, bleed hot water back to the pump, and simultaneously open a cold tap you could be delivering hot water out of a cold tap!

 

Richard

 

i forgot to point out that you would need to do some plumbing at the other end but it would save runing pipes full length

take one of the hot feeds and conect betwen water pump and cold feed to hot tank with non retern valve, and as said join ends together at far end of boat now pump as i have segesed with a press and hold switch on pump.

hope i have maid sence

 

You are running them full length anyway. Otherwise you trip over them as they run across the floor.

 

Richard

 

OK, as they say on Dragon's Den - I'm out

[number four]

Clearly that is not what the topic starter wasasking about originally. He wants to save the water which would otherwise go down the plughole while your waiting for the hot to come through.

 

Depending on positioning of pumps and taps and how you can hide the pipes and harping back to what one poster was saying about using what's there, is it feasible to just have a valve before the hot taps as a diverter routed back to the input side of the pump so that you are sending the "waste" back to the cold tank. Presumably you would get used to how long it took to run off the cold. Cannot see how you could automate it or make it pretty but it would save a pump?

i think this would need much more plumbing and a valve on every tap and plumb back from every tap to befor the presure pump on the cold feed? is this what you have in mind i am a little confused.

[nb Innisfree]

That's very clever. To be safe you should probably have an NRV just before where the return pipe is teed in just in case you start flushing hot water back up cold lines.

 

Hold on...

 

If you have one pump, bleed hot water back to the pump, and simultaneously open a cold tap you could be delivering hot water out of a cold tap!

 

Richard

 

 

 

You are running them full length anyway. Otherwise you trip over them as they run across the floor.

 

Richard

 

OK, as they say on Dragon's Den - I'm out

 

Hang on there a minute!

 

Yes hot could circulate back to main supply from pump but only if valve is left open, the one I propose is auto shut off after a few seconds + if pressure is stored in accumulator water will tee into pump supply and return to tank until pump cuts in. Not entirely foolproof but pretty near.

 

 

Clearly that is not what the topic starter wasasking about originally. He wants to save the water which would otherwise go down the plughole while your waiting for the hot to come through.

 

Depending on positioning of pumps and taps and how you can hide the pipes and harping back to what one poster was saying about using what's there, is it feasible to just have a valve before the hot taps as a diverter routed back to the input side of the pump so that you are sending the "waste" back to the cold tank. Presumably you would get used to how long it took to run off the cold. Cannot see how you could automate it or make it pretty but it would save a pump?

 

Read my post!

[blodger]

i think this would need much more plumbing and a valve on every tap and plumb back from every tap to befor the presure pump on the cold feed? is this what you have in mind i am a little confused.

There have been several posts while I was writing mine and up to this and I was beaten to this non 'solution' along the way. I/we are putting ideas forward for rjection or refining to a workable solution. Whilst you are diverting the pump will be delivering back to the calorifier so it will not reach the cold tank. There is a danger then that hot could be supplied to a cold tap opened at the same time as somebody has since pointed out.

 

There is probable as mush plumbing involved as in yours with an extra pump?

[blodger]

Hang on there a minute!

 

Yes hot could circulate back to main supply from pump but only if valve is left open, the one I propose is auto shut off after a few seconds + if pressure is stored in accumulator water will tee into pump supply and return to tank until pump cuts in. Not entirely foolproof but pretty near.

 

 

 

 

Read my post!

 

I know nothing of auto shut off valves and how they would fare in a boat pressurised system sounds like the sort of knowledge the poster needs