Contempory Boat Design - Maximum Height

[Chertsey]

Lowest flat top bridge I've been under was on the Basingstoke Canal. We had to remove the tiller pin. There is a lower one on the Middle Levels somewhere that only the intrepid will bother with.

 

Lowest tunnel will be Froghall, though the gauge at Tipton for Dudley Tunnel is lower still and at the end of the day it's the gauge you have to fit under.

 

Boats are getting taller as draughts are much less than they used to be. Pretty needlessly I might add.

The Middle Level one was Ramsey Hollow, but it was raised a few years ago. Warrior was built to go under it, and bears the scars on the foremost mushroom vent of taking it too fast once (not by us, I'm afraid).

 

If you want a wide bed, there's more than one way to achieve that - a drop down or pull out cross bed can be as wide as you like. Or you can have a full width one under a tug deck.

[Hairy-Neil]

The Middle Level one was Ramsey Hollow, but it was raised a few years ago.

 

Exhibition Bridge on the River Nene Old Course is another according to TNC.

[Steamerpoint]

The Middle Level one was Ramsey Hollow, but it was raised a few years ago. Warrior was built to go under it, and bears the scars on the foremost mushroom vent of taking it too fast once (not by us, I'm afraid).

 

If you want a wide bed, there's more than one way to achieve that - a drop down or pull out cross bed can be as wide as you like. Or you can have a full width one under a tug deck.

Thanks Sarah, I had started thinking along those lines. I started thinking back to my caravan days where there were two single beds on each side of the van and a row of wooden battons would roll out from one end between the single beds and then a few long cushions would drop in and hey presto, full width double bed. That way you could walk past during cruising trips and leave it made up as a big double when moored up for a while!

 

Nice blog by the way!

 

Chris.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Steamerpoint

[Steamerpoint]

I guess, a bit like you, we have to justify spending money on building a very different kind of boat with more than just the thought that someone might like it - hence the computer generated version. Needless to say, this was the mistake we made when we built the wide beam original. Yes, we had a queue of visitors every day at the London Boat Show, and plenty of "Wait till my wife sees this" type comments to go with it. And it generated five different magazine articles. But I learnt the lesson then that however much people SAY they like something, it's the hard cash that matters!

 

And yes I would love to build another one - this or the narrow beam version. But it will be built to order this time.

Allan, There are parts of this design I quite like. The jet thruster idea seems clever. They must be mini jet thrusters that are mounted in the hull and force water out to the sides front and aft?

They would not, I am guessing propel the boat forward, so it would still require a diesel engine somewhere perhaps?

 

Manoeuvring a long narrow boat in tight places with all drive and steering at the rear of a conventional narrowboat does take an element of skill and having some nice toys like this could be an advantage. That said, if they get clogged up with weed and become impractical, then perhaps it is an expense one could live to regret.

 

How long has the Demi-Whisper been available in narrow beam format? It just strikes me as something like this should have been adopted by some semi-rich person before now and you should have been swamped with buyers, with several built already.

Good ideas that are priced to meet the market they are aimed at, should make good business sense, but I suspect that this business model might be flawed in some way!

 

Either the market isn't out there and people can see issues with the design or the boat is simply too expensive for the target market. Good business models succeed and bad one's fail.

 

BMW built an excellent bike/ scooter hybrid called the C1. The bike with a roof. Unfortunately BMW got some things wrong!

They were expensive to build, which gave them a small profit margin. They didn't market them right, if much at all, so people thought the roof was to keep the rider dry, rather than offer the rider protection. The roof was actually part of the safety cell with two strong curved tubes able to take the weight of 2.2 tones. They also targeted car drivers by selling them in car showrooms, rather than attract bikers who had given up the fast bikes after too many accidents and now wanted the freedom of two wheels, but a good level of protection next time a car pulls out in front of them. They built 22,000 C1's and made a huge loss. It was a great idea though.

 

This is perhaps what is going on here with the Demi-Whisper. A bunch of clever guys have sat down and designed a technologically advanced narrowboat and are now waiting for the market to embrace it during one of the toughest recessions seen for half a century.

 

I have been looking at prices of new narrowboats knocked out as standard for around £55k -£60k for a 58 footer. The Demi-Whisper is twice this price and from what I can see, the main difference is the jet thrusters and internal pilot position with a lot of glass at the rear. The overall height of the boat still worries me because technically, it is 9 inches higher than a conventional narrowboat with no way of making it lower. Basically you hit a low bridge with slightly higher water levels than normal and your either staying put for a while or going back!

Maybe they should have designed it to fold down in some way for those rare occasions it gets stuck. Just a thought.

[PaddingtonBear]

Blimey, where are these very cheap 58' narrowboats let us all have a laugh/comment.

[Allenm]

Allan, There are parts of this design I quite like. The jet thruster idea seems clever. They must be mini jet thrusters that are mounted in the hull and force water out to the sides front and aft?

They would not, I am guessing propel the boat forward, so it would still require a diesel engine somewhere perhaps?

 

Manoeuvring a long narrow boat in tight places with all drive and steering at the rear of a conventional narrowboat does take an element of skill and having some nice toys like this could be an advantage. That said, if they get clogged up with weed and become impractical, then perhaps it is an expense one could live to regret.

 

How long has the Demi-Whisper been available in narrow beam format? It just strikes me as something like this should have been adopted by some semi-rich person before now and you should have been swamped with buyers, with several built already.

Good ideas that are priced to meet the market they are aimed at, should make good business sense, but I suspect that this business model might be flawed in some way!

 

Either the market isn't out there and people can see issues with the design or the boat is simply too expensive for the target market. Good business models succeed and bad one's fail.

 

BMW built an excellent bike/ scooter hybrid called the C1. The bike with a roof. Unfortunately BMW got some things wrong!

They were expensive to build, which gave them a small profit margin. They didn't market them right, if much at all, so people thought the roof was to keep the rider dry, rather than offer the rider protection. The roof was actually part of the safety cell with two strong curved tubes able to take the weight of 2.2 tones. They also targeted car drivers by selling them in car showrooms, rather than attract bikers who had given up the fast bikes after too many accidents and now wanted the freedom of two wheels, but a good level of protection next time a car pulls out in front of them. They built 22,000 C1's and made a huge loss. It was a great idea though.

 

This is perhaps what is going on here with the Demi-Whisper. A bunch of clever guys have sat down and designed a technologically advanced narrowboat and are now waiting for the market to embrace it during one of the toughest recessions seen for half a century.

 

I have been looking at prices of new narrowboats knocked out as standard for around £55k -£60k for a 58 footer. The Demi-Whisper is twice this price and from what I can see, the main difference is the jet thrusters and internal pilot position with a lot of glass at the rear. The overall height of the boat still worries me because technically, it is 9 inches higher than a conventional narrowboat with no way of making it lower. Basically you hit a low bridge with slightly higher water levels than normal and your either staying put for a while or going back!

Maybe they should have designed it to fold down in some way for those rare occasions it gets stuck. Just a thought.

 

 

 

Thanks for your detailed thoughts – much appreciated. I will try to respond in kind.

 

The narrow beam Whisper has a conventional propeller at the stern, but both it and the jet thrusters are electrically powered, the latter being a large pump under the stern deck that directs water to one or more of the four jet outlets. And because these jets only “blow”, unlike a bow thruster that effectively “sucks” as well, they are much less likely to get clogged. This technology already exists – just not on narrow boats. And although OwnerShips has been fitting it as standard on new narrow boats since last year, the only problem so far has been the electronic control system that operates the valves. (The manufacturer just seems to be finding it extraordinarily difficult to supply pcb-s that are up to spec!). The source of the electrical power on the Whisper boat is a large diesel generator under the front deck – around 24kVA, or more depending on internal appliances (i.e. things like cookers and washing machines). This runs during cruising and could be on all day if loaded with other appliances. In the evening (after cooking?) and overnight, power comes from a battery bank via 2 X 2.5kW inverters.

 

I take on board all you have said about getting the marketing right – which I clearly didn’t with the original wide beam Whisper motor yacht. However, comparing the price of the narrow beam version with a conventional narrow boat of similar length could be misleading – analogous, perhaps, to comparing two 15ft cars and wondering why they are priced differently. OwnerShips’ “five star class” conventional narrow boats start at £78k inc. VAT. It’s just that that’s the marketplace it operates in, rather than the very competitive “economy” marketplace. (And two years ago, before it moved its production to Poland, the equivalent boat built in the UK had a COST price of more than that).

 

With regard to the way the market appears to be moving, from a technical perspective, it was only three (?) years ago that I was talking to a prominent boat broker about diesel electric systems, and he told me that he had one such narrow boat in his “pool” (built by its engineer owner, I think), but he reported that it was proving difficult to sell. Prospective buyers would step aboard and be told about the benefits of this “new” technology, nod a few times, and then ask “what else have you got then?” – which seemed to confirm, then at least, that this is a conservative marketplace. (And, indeed, that may be part of the narrow beam Whisper’s biggest hurdle, aside from the “recession”. It simply doesn’t look like a conventional narrow boat – and in answer to your question, it has only been advertised since January of this year).

 

But the potentially happy marriage between diesel electric technology and narrow boats is, I believe, long overdue, even though they appear to be “made for each other”. The weight of the extra batteries is not an issue (you save on ballast!), the average power demand is relatively low with occasional high peaks (that can be met with extra power from the battery storage), and the relatively small diesel generator is much happier running at a constant 3,000rpm say than a larger diesel engine, connected directly to the propeller, hunting around between 900 and 1200rpm. And this is not new technology. It’s been powering railway locomotives for over 50 years.

 

The good news is that boatbuilders appear to be starting to look at the diesel electric option now more seriously than ever before, and the Beta/Hybrid retrofit option is already available “off the shelf” and fitted to three (?) narrow boats in the UK (including a recent OwnerShips-built 70 footer). I hope that this is a reflection of an increasing public acceptance of the concept.

 

And, of course, the diesel electric concept takes several different shapes and forms, from the “pure” system at one extreme – no extra batteries, you just connect the generator directly to the propulsion motor – through parallel systems like the Beta/Hybrid – to the most sophisticated systems that match diesel power output to demand dynamically, and wash your socks at the same time!

 

Personally, I hope that this is the way things will start to move, it makes so much good sense, particularly as we all become increasingly “green”. And if the market does go that way, so will OwnerShips.

[Steamerpoint]

Blimey, where are these very cheap 58' narrowboats let us all have a laugh/comment.

This has just been sold! Asking price was £58,500. Not sure what he got for it in the end.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=290309555464

[Steamerpoint]

Thanks for your detailed thoughts – much appreciated. I will try to respond in kind.

 

The narrow beam Whisper has a conventional propeller at the stern, but both it and the jet thrusters are electrically powered, the latter being a large pump under the stern deck that directs water to one or more of the four jet outlets. And because these jets only “blow”, unlike a bow thruster that effectively “sucks” as well, they are much less likely to get clogged. This technology already exists – just not on narrow boats. And although OwnerShips has been fitting it as standard on new narrow boats since last year, the only problem so far has been the electronic control system that operates the valves. (The manufacturer just seems to be finding it extraordinarily difficult to supply pcb-s that are up to spec!). The source of the electrical power on the Whisper boat is a large diesel generator under the front deck – around 24kVA, or more depending on internal appliances (i.e. things like cookers and washing machines). This runs during cruising and could be on all day if loaded with other appliances. In the evening (after cooking?) and overnight, power comes from a battery bank via 2 X 2.5kW inverters.

 

I take on board all you have said about getting the marketing right – which I clearly didn’t with the original wide beam Whisper motor yacht. However, comparing the price of the narrow beam version with a conventional narrow boat of similar length could be misleading – analogous, perhaps, to comparing two 15ft cars and wondering why they are priced differently. OwnerShips’ “five star class” conventional narrow boats start at £78k inc. VAT. It’s just that that’s the marketplace it operates in, rather than the very competitive “economy” marketplace. (And two years ago, before it moved its production to Poland, the equivalent boat built in the UK had a COST price of more than that).

 

With regard to the way the market appears to be moving, from a technical perspective, it was only three (?) years ago that I was talking to a prominent boat broker about diesel electric systems, and he told me that he had one such narrow boat in his “pool” (built by its engineer owner, I think), but he reported that it was proving difficult to sell. Prospective buyers would step aboard and be told about the benefits of this “new” technology, nod a few times, and then ask “what else have you got then?” – which seemed to confirm, then at least, that this is a conservative marketplace. (And, indeed, that may be part of the narrow beam Whisper’s biggest hurdle, aside from the “recession”. It simply doesn’t look like a conventional narrow boat – and in answer to your question, it has only been advertised since January of this year).

 

But the potentially happy marriage between diesel electric technology and narrow boats is, I believe, long overdue, even though they appear to be “made for each other”. The weight of the extra batteries is not an issue (you save on ballast!), the average power demand is relatively low with occasional high peaks (that can be met with extra power from the battery storage), and the relatively small diesel generator is much happier running at a constant 3,000rpm say than a larger diesel engine, connected directly to the propeller, hunting around between 900 and 1200rpm. And this is not new technology. It’s been powering railway locomotives for over 50 years.

 

The good news is that boatbuilders appear to be starting to look at the diesel electric option now more seriously than ever before, and the Beta/Hybrid retrofit option is already available “off the shelf” and fitted to three (?) narrow boats in the UK (including a recent OwnerShips-built 70 footer). I hope that this is a reflection of an increasing public acceptance of the concept.

 

And, of course, the diesel electric concept takes several different shapes and forms, from the “pure” system at one extreme – no extra batteries, you just connect the generator directly to the propulsion motor – through parallel systems like the Beta/Hybrid – to the most sophisticated systems that match diesel power output to demand dynamically, and wash your socks at the same time!

 

Personally, I hope that this is the way things will start to move, it makes so much good sense, particularly as we all become increasingly “green”. And if the market does go that way, so will OwnerShips.

Hi Allan, thanks for such a detail view on the boat and it's design.

Fear of the unknown is often the biggest hurdle especially when moving into an industry steeped in history.

 

I guess in the same way the electric car is seen by most as "Yeah great idea" most will still walk into their local car dealer and buy a petrol or diesel engined motor.

I like the fact that the generator is up the front out of the way. After all, why put it under the feet of the pilot, when it can be 60 feet away and still do the same job!

 

As for boat prices, I believe that in recent years, prices have risen much in the same way house prices have risen. I know this to be true for mobile homes. I know of one that sold in 2007 for well over £100k, but the owner bought it nearly new 4-years previous for £58k.

It was effectively the land under the mobile home that went up and the site owner kept raising the cost of the lease, but more importantly, there were buyers out there that needed somewhere to live and simply couldn’t afford anything else!

 

It is currently possible to buy a three bed end of terrace house in Peterborough for around £80k so finding people to buy a narrowboat for a similar price that will decrease in value over time, without ever really seeing the price go back up again, must be getting harder and harder.

 

I imagine boat prices, like most things, will fall as unemployment rises and many people who have used their narrow boats as a low cost version of housing, may choose to leave the waterways if they are able to buy a house themselves, where perhaps they were unable to before.

 

Lets face it, everything is becoming cheaper as the economy contracts. I believe that the best time to buy a narrowboat is similar to buying a caravan or motorcycle etc. will probably be next Autumn just before Winter. It is expected that unemployment will be up around the 3-million mark by then and I imagine that many people will sell their boats when the Summer season ends. Greater choice and possibly lower prices, but in the mean time, I will keep an eye out for a nice one, just in case I spot one at a nice price.

 

Of course it is tempting to buy new and I feel that the prices of new boats will also fall. Steel is getting cheaper at the moment because the car industry and home construction industry have virtually stopped what they were doing. As narrowboats are 70% steel, then they must be cheaper to construct. I am seeing brand new 55-foot hulls unsold for £12,500! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=170326015368 and fitting something like this out would cost circa £20k plus labour, so I’ve been told.

I have already had an offer from a carpenter/ boat builder gentleman (At the yard of Floating Homes in Stilton) to do the work for £10k. That's about £42,500 for a brand new 55 footer!

 

I take your point about comparing like for like. I have already discovered the quality of welding (Or lack of it) done by Floating Homes. Everyone I have spoken to, fitting out their boats in the yard, would not recommend the builder they chose! Not a good start then and you do get what you pay for 9 times out of 10.

 

One of the things Ownerships are trying to do is tempt people into buying a part share of the Demi-Whisper. One twelfth I think? I guess that would mean they need 12 people to buy a share of the boat before they agree to build one!

One thing that puts me off this idea is that it only takes one person to bash it or get it nicked to spoil it for the rest and another 11 owners is quite a high number. If they could make them cheaper and divided it up by say 4-owners, they might have a better chance. Not sure the idea is for me though. In 3-years I want to do at least 6, but possibly 8-months of cruising each year and other owners would not be happy about that. There is also something special about owning your own boat. It's more like a home or second home than a piece of holiday equipment that you use a couple of weeks a year! Putting your own stamp on it, like painting the boat in your chosen colour scheme etc.

 

At the end of the day, I think you should be commended on designing such a modern and thought provoking narrowboat.

It takes foresight and ingenuity to design something like this and I hope I can one day say to my grand children, "You see all these electric narrowboats on the canal? Once upon a time they were all diesel engine powdered and I once spoke to the man that designed the first electric one!"

 

The reality for me though, is that my budget is between £35k and £56K and as there are no second hand ones around, I will have to find a smart second hand boat or perhaps use a few of your ideas and incorporate them into a new build, like the full width bed up front etc. Good luck with it though and thanks for explaining how it works.

[Radiomariner]

I like it. No attempt to look traditional. I like traditional boats, but this is honestly trying to be an honest canal boat with no tradition whatever. I like the concept of the propulsion system. Pity I can not afford it. Being a boat owner for a long time, I do not think I could cope with a "part share"

 

Edited to add;- "I think the memsahib would like a nice big mirror on the bedroom deckhead angled so she could lie on the bed and look out the window!"

Edited May 15, 2009 by Radiomariner

[Malarky]

I guess 6" by 7' wide at the top, things must come in "sixes and sevens" on the canal!

[alan_fincher]

I think the memsahib would like a nice big mirror on the bedroom deckhead angled so she could lie on the bed and look............................

I wondered where that was leading us for a bit. :lol:

[Steamerpoint]

Thanks for your detailed thoughts – much appreciated. I will try to respond in kind.

 

The narrow beam Whisper has a conventional propeller at the stern, but both it and the jet thrusters are electrically powered, the latter being a large pump under the stern deck that directs water to one or more of the four jet outlets. And because these jets only “blow”, unlike a bow thruster that effectively “sucks” as well, they are much less likely to get clogged. This technology already exists – just not on narrow boats. And although OwnerShips has been fitting it as standard on new narrow boats since last year, the only problem so far has been the electronic control system that operates the valves. (The manufacturer just seems to be finding it extraordinarily difficult to supply pcb-s that are up to spec!). The source of the electrical power on the Whisper boat is a large diesel generator under the front deck – around 24kVA, or more depending on internal appliances (i.e. things like cookers and washing machines). This runs during cruising and could be on all day if loaded with other appliances. In the evening (after cooking?) and overnight, power comes from a battery bank via 2 X 2.5kW inverters.

 

I take on board all you have said about getting the marketing right – which I clearly didn’t with the original wide beam Whisper motor yacht. However, comparing the price of the narrow beam version with a conventional narrow boat of similar length could be misleading – analogous, perhaps, to comparing two 15ft cars and wondering why they are priced differently. OwnerShips’ “five star class” conventional narrow boats start at £78k inc. VAT. It’s just that that’s the marketplace it operates in, rather than the very competitive “economy” marketplace. (And two years ago, before it moved its production to Poland, the equivalent boat built in the UK had a COST price of more than that).

 

With regard to the way the market appears to be moving, from a technical perspective, it was only three (?) years ago that I was talking to a prominent boat broker about diesel electric systems, and he told me that he had one such narrow boat in his “pool” (built by its engineer owner, I think), but he reported that it was proving difficult to sell. Prospective buyers would step aboard and be told about the benefits of this “new” technology, nod a few times, and then ask “what else have you got then?” – which seemed to confirm, then at least, that this is a conservative marketplace. (And, indeed, that may be part of the narrow beam Whisper’s biggest hurdle, aside from the “recession”. It simply doesn’t look like a conventional narrow boat – and in answer to your question, it has only been advertised since January of this year).

 

But the potentially happy marriage between diesel electric technology and narrow boats is, I believe, long overdue, even though they appear to be “made for each other”. The weight of the extra batteries is not an issue (you save on ballast!), the average power demand is relatively low with occasional high peaks (that can be met with extra power from the battery storage), and the relatively small diesel generator is much happier running at a constant 3,000rpm say than a larger diesel engine, connected directly to the propeller, hunting around between 900 and 1200rpm. And this is not new technology. It’s been powering railway locomotives for over 50 years.

 

The good news is that boatbuilders appear to be starting to look at the diesel electric option now more seriously than ever before, and the Beta/Hybrid retrofit option is already available “off the shelf” and fitted to three (?) narrow boats in the UK (including a recent OwnerShips-built 70 footer). I hope that this is a reflection of an increasing public acceptance of the concept.

 

And, of course, the diesel electric concept takes several different shapes and forms, from the “pure” system at one extreme – no extra batteries, you just connect the generator directly to the propulsion motor – through parallel systems like the Beta/Hybrid – to the most sophisticated systems that match diesel power output to demand dynamically, and wash your socks at the same time!

 

Personally, I hope that this is the way things will start to move, it makes so much good sense, particularly as we all become increasingly “green”. And if the market does go that way, so will OwnerShips.

Hi Allen,

It was good to meet you at the Show yesterday and I know that you were going to look at the figures of building a Demi-Whisper for me and use it for a year or two as a demo boat, but things have changed in quite a big way.

 

At the show we stumbled upon the Dutch Barge Narrowboat, which we both really like. We never knew that it was possible to have a Dutch Barge style boat on the canals and as my wife is Dutch, I'm half Dutch on my mothers side and our cousin in Holland actually has a wonderful Dutch Barge, we have always loved the style.

Having a cabin at the very front & rear of these boats with a collapsible wheel house in the middle really works for us and allows two full width double beds to be situated without the need to walk past to the bow or stern.

See: http://www.325099.co.uk/Interesting%20Stuff2.htm

 

On that basis, I don't want you to spend a great deal of time working out a plan, when we have decided to go for something else.

 

I still think your design is fantastic and you should go ahead and build one, but we will now be looking for ways to fund a Dutch Barge instead. I hope you are not too dissapointed.

 

Regards Chris.

[Nitrowing]

Boat height is a concern for me also, I'm considerng a canopy for the back and I'm 6' tall - so the inside will have to be 6' 2" meaning the extrnal canopy height would be 6' 4"

I'll measure the deck height above the waterline to see what overall height this totals to but knowing a definitive height to work to would be great!

[RLWP]

Boat height is a concern for me also, I'm considerng a canopy for the back and I'm 6' tall - so the inside will have to be 6' 2" meaning the extrnal canopy height would be 6' 4"

I'll measure the deck height above the waterline to see what overall height this totals to but knowing a definitive height to work to would be great!

 

It won't mean anything when you have a definitive height.

 

Take another dimension - length. Our boat is 70' long, so it won't fit on all the canals in England. We would have to cut her down to around 57' to fit. So, the boat is useless - right? Wrong. It fits all the canals around here without a problem

 

I know of bridges on the network near here that I have to duck for, and I'm a shortarse. Your canopy at even 6' 2" would be too tall. But, I don't know what the practical height is for the canals you are going to use your boat on

 

Richard

[Athy]

Has Allen built any narrowboats to his revolutionary design yet? As I believe Ownerships has now closed down, is he still involved with the waterways?

[alias]

Has Allen built any narrowboats to his revolutionary design yet? As I believe Ownerships has now closed down, is he still involved with the waterways?

No he didn't build any. He died in 2010

[Athy]

Oh, sorry, I didn't know that.