Another call for information...!

[Admiral]

Hi

 

I have recently bought the EX - FMC motor boat "France". I have setup a website to try to chart the history and to highlight the restoration process.

 

So, if anybody out there has pictures, info, sightings or just stories about the boat as either "France" or "Adder" or as WFBC camping boat I would be most thankful and you will get credited on the site.

 

Thanks again

 

Steve

 

www.nbfrance.com

[Paul H]

Hi

 

I have recently bought the EX - FMC motor boat "France". I have setup a website to try to chart the history and to highlight the restoration process.

 

So, if anybody out there has pictures, info, sightings or just stories about the boat as either "France" or "Adder" or as WFBC camping boat I would be most thankful and you will get credited on the site.

 

Thanks again

 

Steve

 

www.nbfrance.com

 

I believe Adder (aka France) was run as a camping boat by Dennis Cooper from Brewood in the 1960s. he later went on to set up Canal Transport Services at Norton Canes Docks which his son Matthew still runs. I's be amazed if the family don't have some pictures. it might also be worthwhile contacting Cath Turpin of the boat Museum Society who has made a study of Thomas Clayton.

 

After Mungo had it the boat went down the Severn for awhile. A frind has some pictures from this era. I'll give him a nudge!

 

Hopefully Pete H will be along soon as well.....

 

 

Paul H

Edited April 24, 2009 by Paul H

[Admiral]

I believe Adder (aka France) was run as a camping boat by Dennis Cooper from Brewood in the 1960s. he later went on to set up Canal Transport Services at Norton Canes Docks which his son Matthew still runs. I's be amazed if the family don't have some pictures. it might also be worthwhile contacting Cath Turpin of the boat Museum Society who has made a study of Thomas Clayton.

 

After Mungo had it the boat went down the Severn for awhile. A frind has some pictures from this era. I'll give him a nudge!

 

Hopefully Pete H will be along soon as well.....

 

 

Paul H

 

Thanks Paul.

 

Steve

[Speedwheel]

Did it run for Leonard Leigh for a while?

[pete harrison]

Hi

 

I have recently bought the EX - FMC motor boat "France". I have setup a website to try to chart the history and to highlight the restoration process.

 

So, if anybody out there has pictures, info, sightings or just stories about the boat as either "France" or "Adder" or as WFBC camping boat I would be most thankful and you will get credited on the site.

 

Thanks again

 

Steve

 

www.nbfrance.com

 

FRANCE

 

08/1904 – built at Saltley, Birmingham by Fellows, Morton & Clayton Ltd. as an iron composite fore cabined horse boat FRANCE – fleet No. 46 @ £200.

21/09/1904 – gauged as B.C.N. 19442 (35 tons @ 49.77’’).

30/09/1904 – health registered as Birmingham 1140 (2 cabins / 4 persons).

29/11/1904 – gauged as G.J.C. 11225 (36 tons @ 49.97’’).

31/01/1911 – minor weight deduction given on B.C.N. 19442.

04/04/1921 - minor weight deduction given on G.J.C. 11225.

02/04/1937 - converted by W.J. Yarwood & Sons Ltd., Northwich (Yard No. 592) to a counter sterned motor for F.M.C. Ltd..

05/1937 – completed by F.M.C.Ltd., Saltley – fleet No. 338 – fitted with a 9hp Bolinder semi diesel (later fitted into wooden B.C.N. TROJAN).

04/06/1937 – health registered as Birmingham 1606 (1 cabin / 3 persons).

11/06/1937 – gauged as B.C.N. 1963 (31 tons @ 50.10’’)

03/1940 – docked at Saltley.

07/1943 – docked at Saltley.

11/1948 – docked at Saltley.

01/01/1949 – sold to British Transport Waterways (Docks & Inland Waterways Executive), London.

18/11/1949 – Birmingham 1606 transferred to British Transport Waterways (Docks & Inland Waterways Executive), London (cancelled 01/08/1952).

12/1951 – sold to Thomas Clayton (Oldbury) Ltd. and converted to a decked tank boat.

04/07/1952 – health registered as Oldbury 25 as ADDER for Thomas Clayton (Oldbury) Ltd..

c1956 – sold to Jones & Powell, Wolverhampton.

06/06/1956 – gauged as B.C.N. 2376 for Jones & Powell, Wolverhampton. Tank deck removed (30 tons @ 49.69’’).

04/12/1957 – minor weight addition to B.C.N. 2376 – L. Leigh Ltd. also added to table.

Pre04/1961 – sold to Leonard Leigh Ltd., Birmingham (boat not named but “2376” on cabinsides). (current owner 10/1963)

196? – sold (owners name with held).

29/07/1967 – attended rally of boats at Leicester as ‘house boat’ conversion named ADDER 2376.

15/05/1971 – sold to Mungo Park (later loaned to Warwickshire Fly Boat Company for use as a cabined camping boat).

c1979 – renamed FRANCE.

1994 – sold (owners name with held).

11/07/1996 – sold (owners name with held) (often tied in Braunston Marina, just south of the Ladder Bridge – still there in 06/2003).

 

The 9hp Bolinder from FRANCE / ADDER was later fitted into the wooden B.C.N. pleasure boat conversion TROJAN. It was removed from TROJAN in about 1965 and was for sale in Waterways World 11/1998. A 1951 Lister JP2 was subsequently fitted into ADDER but I do not have a date when it went in.

 

Most of the above is a result of my own research. It is however supplemented with a few details supplied from the late Clive Guthrie who was working on a publication relating to the history of all ‘Yarwood’ built craft.

 

If the current owner wishes to contact me directly with his real identity and the date of his acquisition I will be happy to confirm the names of the latter owners.

 

The F.M.C. motor used as a Norton Canes / Brewood based camping boat during the late 1960’s and early 1970’s was PARROT (exPLOVER). This boat also ended up with the Warwickshire Fly Boat Company.

[Admiral]

Pete

 

Wow, thats a fantastic amount of imformation I will message you right away.

 

Thanks again

 

Steve

[David Schweizer]

I have just read Petes historic account of France, and noticed that the original engine was fitted into wooden BCN boat Trojan.

 

I knew a wooden boat called Trojan in the 1960's, it was a former Birmingham Joey, which had been motorized and was moored for years at Batchworth on the GU. The owner was John Sherrat, a trained Actor and Teacher from Birmingham. was that the same boat?

[Paul H]

FRANCE

 

The F.M.C. motor used as a Norton Canes / Brewood based camping boat during the late 1960's and early 1970's was PARROT (exPLOVER). This boat also ended up with the Warwickshire Fly Boat Company.

 

Whilst I bow to Pete's knowledge of NB history being considerably more superior to mine, I did record CTS as owning Adder in some research I did in the 1970s. Perhaps I was wrong but separately a claim of ownership of Adder was also made by Denis Cooper in a Waterways World interview with him in August 2004 when it suggested he "converted it to a skippered camping boat." So maybe he owned (or maybe just operated) both Parrot and Adder at one time. It would certainly be worth checking with CTS to make sure.

 

Paul H

 

Paul H

Edited April 24, 2009 by Paul H

[Speedwheel]

Have you got any old pictures of the boat?

 

What are you restoring it back to? Would be nice to do something different than FMC. Maybe Leonard Leigh colours. They do look good on a full length boat.

[Admiral]

Have you got any old pictures of the boat?

 

What are you restoring it back to? Would be nice to do something different than FMC. Maybe Leonard Leigh colours. They do look good on a full length boat.

 

 

Hi

 

Well firstly is get the hull sorted out! It will be unconverted. I agree with the other than FMC thing, I even have thought about calling it Adder again and decking the hold would be nice to have no clothes to muck about with, but is sure a waste of space. I like the Leonard Leigh colours would be very different, I don't think I have ever seen a full length motor in those colours? Would like to get a photo of it working for him that would be fun, paint is always the easy part. Did you ever get hold of me mum and dad?

 

Steve

[Derek R.]

So which Adder is this?

 

 

 

 

 

In the ownership of Barry Whitehead of Bingley, and at Braunston in 1985/6 awaiting further work.

Barry had it for several years, but may have sold it during the nineties. it had a conversion on, and when we passed him sometime around 1989ish at Weedon, it was running with a Bolinder that seemed to race a bit. Think it was still called Adder when at Weedon.

 

From my own picture collection. It was from the cabin dimensions of Adder that Yarmouth's cabin was constructed.

 

Derek

[Admiral]

So which Adder is this?

 

 

 

 

In the ownership of Barry Whitehead of Bingley, and at Braunston in 1985/6 awaiting further work.

Barry had it for several years, but may have sold it during the nineties. it had a conversion on, and when we passed him sometime around 1989ish at Weedon, it was running with a Bolinder that seemed to race a bit. Think it was still called Adder when at Weedon.

 

From my own picture collection. It was from the cabin dimensions of Adder that Yarmouth's cabin was constructed.

 

Derek

 

Derek

This was FMC adder, France was renamed "Adder" for the period of time she was decked over and working for Claytons. But thanks for the pictures always nice to see.

Steve

[pete harrison]

Whilst I bow to Pete's knowledge of NB history being considerably more superior to mine, I did record CTS as owning Adder in some research I did in the 1970s. Perhaps I was wrong but separately a claim of ownership of Adder was also made by Denis Cooper in a Waterways World interview with him in August 2004 when it suggested he "converted it to a skippered camping boat." So maybe he owned (or maybe just operated) both Parrot and Adder at one time. It would certainly be worth checking with CTS to make sure.

 

Paul H

 

Paul H

 

In my view the article in Waterways World (August 2004 pg 80) is open to interpretation. I quote

 

"He (Denis Cooper - P.J.H.) also acted as an independant surveyor for people contemplating the purchase of a boat. His next venture was to convert an ex-Josher (formally France) into a skippered camping boat, again operating out of Brewood".

 

It may be that Mr Cooper acquired ADDER directly from Leonard Leigh Ltd. and converted in it in about 1967 for his own business use (although he was not in full time canal business when this conversion was done !). Could it be that this conversion was carried out for somebody else ? Interestingly Max Sinclair mentions in Waterways World (March 2006 pg 103) that they used "Eric Pike's Bolinder powered ADDER to raise it" (BALINGER as a sunken day boat pre 1968).

 

It appears to me that as usual it is the recent history that is so difficult to research and that Denis Cooper may well have been a previous owner, but then who was Eric Pike ? (and I have another late 1960's owner !)

[pete harrison]

I have just read Petes historic account of France, and noticed that the original engine was fitted into wooden BCN boat Trojan.

 

I knew a wooden boat called Trojan in the 1960's, it was a former Birmingham Joey, which had been motorized and was moored for years at Batchworth on the GU. The owner was John Sherrat, a trained Actor and Teacher from Birmingham. was that the same boat?

 

Yes, this is the same TROJAN. I understand Mr Sherrat acquired the boat in October 1962 (2 months before I was born !). The last positive observation I have for TROJAN is December 1988 when it was still tied above the lock at Rickmansworth.

 

After the Bolinder 9hp was removed in about 1965 it was replaced by a Petter PH2 15hp, formally in the Small Northwich motor PISCES.

[Delirium]

Yes, this is the same TROJAN. I understand Mr Sherrat acquired the boat in October 1962 (2 months before I was born !). The last positive observation I have for TROJAN is December 1988 when it was still tied above the lock at Rickmansworth.

.

 

TROJAN was at Cosgrove around 1990, just round the corner from LUCY

[David Schweizer]

Yes, this is the same TROJAN. I understand Mr Sherrat acquired the boat in October 1962 (2 months before I was born !). The last positive observation I have for TROJAN is December 1988 when it was still tied above the lock at Rickmansworth.

 

After the Bolinder 9hp was removed in about 1965 it was replaced by a Petter PH2 15hp, formally in the Small Northwich motor PISCES.

Thanks for the information about Trojan Pete, someone else has also PM'd me with further details of Trojan, and her final resting place.

 

I know PISCES very well and was one of the regular crew members from 1965 until 1971, in all that time she was powered by a V4 Turner with a Paragon gearbox which would have been nearly thirty years old in 1964. I had always understood that this engine had been installed many years earlier, either when she operated on the Thames as a Fire boat, or when she was converted into a River Waterbus operating under the name Water Sprite. In either case the engine was in the wrong place, occupying the space where the boatman's cabin had been, with the former engine room housing the galley and pump out (into the canal!) toilet, a set up inherited from the Water Bus conversion. She also still had the strange Liner Funnel welded onto the roof, which housed the Calor gas bottle.

 

No one ever mentioned her being re-engined, not even Dennis Papworth who was in charge of the operation and maintenance of Pisces from the time she was aquired until about 1973. The whole lot certainly gave the appearance that it had been in place for many years, and the engine is not one that we would have willingly chosen. Although it was very powerful, it caused constant problems with the big end bearings rwegularly failing, something that was finally resolved when Dennis had them re-metalled with phospher bronze, rather than the original white metal.

 

Pisces was aquired by the London Borough of Hillingdon Youth and Community Service in 1964, and was operated as a Community Boat for youth groups, which she still does, but now through a Sponsored Charity. What is interesting is that John Sherratt, the owner of Trojan was the Director of the Ickenham Youth Theatre, which was also run by the Hillingdon Youth Service, so I suppose that it is possible that he bought it from the Borough, if they had removed it from Pisces, but he never mentioned it either, and I worked part time with him for several years.

Edited April 25, 2009 by David Schweizer

[pete harrison]

Thanks for the information about Trojan Pete, someone else has also PM'd me with further details of Trojan, and her final resting place.

 

I know PISCES very well and was one of the regular crew members from 1965 until 1971, in all that time she was powered by a V4 Turner with a Paragon gearbox. I had always understood that this engine had been installed many years earlier, either when she operated on the Thames as a Fire boat, or when she was converted into a River Waterbus operating under the name Water Sprite. No one ever mentioned her being re-engined, not even Dennis Papworth who was in charge of the operation and maintenance of Pisces from the time she was aquired until about 1973.

 

Pisces was aquired by the London Borough of Hillingdon Youth and Community Service in 1964, and was operated as a Community Boat for youth groups, which she still does, but now through a Sponsored charity. What is interesting is that John Sherratt, the owner of Trojan was the Director of the Ickenham Youth Theatre, which was also run by the Hillingdon Youth Service, so it is possible that he bought it from the Borough, if they removed it from Pisces.

 

I know my records are not always absolutely correct but I have PISCES as being sold by British Waterways Board in 1963 to a Stanley Glover, Birmingham who renamed it PISCES from WATER SPRITE. I have Hillingdon acquiring it in 1966 (some of this information coming from Tim Snowden, Hillingdon Council and the engine would have been changed prior to Hillingdon's purchase).

 

When PISCES was a London Fire Service boat it was only on hire and retained its Russell Newbery DM2. The Petter engine was definately fitted by "British Waterways" as PISCES was laid up at Tardebigge during 1956 without an engine. When PISCES as WATER SPRITE was tendered for sale (tender closing date 07/06/1963) it was listed as having the Petter. I imagine the Petter was fitted when the boat became a trip boat in 1958, the conversion being carried out at "British Waterways" Ocker Hill yard. As this engine went into TROJAN in about 1965 I can only assume that the Turner V4 went into PISCES at about the same time, perhaps a month or two earlier. My records show the Turner was certainly in PISCES and fully operational by 05/1966. For the record I then have a Lister SR3 fitted in about 1970 then a Lister HR2 fitted in about 1982, which is the current engine.

 

If my records are incorrect please correct me.

[David Schweizer]

I know my records are not always absolutely correct but I have PISCES as being sold by British Waterways Board in 1963 to a Stanley Glover, Birmingham who renamed it PISCES from WATER SPRITE. I have Hillingdon acquiring it in 1966 (some of this information coming from Tim Snowden, Hillingdon Council and the engine would have been changed prior to Hillingdon's purchase).

 

When PISCES was a London Fire Service boat it was only on hire and retained its Russell Newbery DM2. The Petter engine was definately fitted by "British Waterways" as PISCES was laid up at Tardebigge during 1956 without an engine. When PISCES as WATER SPRITE was tendered for sale (tender closing date 07/06/1963) it was listed as having the Petter. I imagine the Petter was fitted when the boat became a trip boat in 1958, the conversion being carried out at "British Waterways" Ocker Hill yard. As this engine went into TROJAN in about 1965 I can only assume that the Turner V4 went into PISCES at about the same time, perhaps a month or two earlier. My records show the Turner was certainly in PISCES and fully operational by 05/1966. For the record I then have a Lister SR3 fitted in about 1970 then a Lister HR2 fitted in about 1982, which is the current engine.

 

If my records are incorrect please correct me.

I am aware that The Hillingdon Narrowbaot Trust have published a leaflet that states that Pisces ws aquired in 1966, but this in not correct, she was aquired earlier than that. I joined her crew in 1965 and I know that she visited the IWA rally in Stratford on Avon in 1964. There are two well pubished photos of her at the rally where she is shown breasted up to Joe Skinner's Friendship, one of the photos clearly shows two of the Borough's Youth Officers on board together with one of the early regular crew members and his girlfriend.. I can identify and name them all. If I knew how to post photos I would do so, but if you PM your email address I can send them to you.

 

The Lister went into Pisces a little later than 1970, the Turner was still in her when I moved to Birmingham in September 197I. Tim Snowdon did not join Pisces until about 1973, by which time everyone assocated with her in the earlier years had severed all relationships, and there was no one around who actually knew the history first hand. This was nothing to do with Tim but a consequence of the legacy of worsening relationships between the volunteer crew and the local Authority, prior to his arrival.

 

Edited to add:- I have been thinking and I think that Tim Snowdon arrived much later than 1973, I am sure there was someone before him but I cannot recall his name. Kieth Lodge would know.

Edited April 26, 2009 by David Schweizer

[Paul H]

I am aware that The Hillingdon Narrowbaot Trust have published a leaflet that states that Pisces ws aquired in 1966, but this in not correct, she was aquired earlier than that. I joined her crew in 1965 and I know that she visited the IWA rally in Stratford on Avon in 1964. There are two well pubished photos of her at the rally where she is shown breasted up to Joe Skinner's Friendship, one of the photos clearly shows two of the Borough's Youth Officers on board together with one of the early regular crew members and his girlfriend.. I can identify and name them all. If I knew how to post photos I would do so, but if you PM your email address I can send them to you.

 

The Lister went into Pisces a little later than 1970, the Turner was still in her when I moved to Birmingham in September 197I. Tim Snowdon did not join Pisces until about 1973, by which time everyone assocated with her in the earlier years had severed all relationships, and there was no one around who actually knew the history first hand. This was nothing to do with Tim but a consequence of the legacy of worsening relationships between the volunteer crew and the local Authority, prior to his arrival.

Can I suggest Pisces was aquired privately from British Waterways and was simply loaned or hired to Hillingdon until they acquired it in 1966? I have seen reference in reports of the Stratford rally to "Stan Clover's Pisces." Or perhaps Mr Clover acquired the boat on behalf of Hillingdon - in those days it was very hard to get on British Waterways tender lists so deals were often done through a third party. Note the C. Stan Clover was a well known enthusiast who later went on to own the tug Sharpness.

 

Paul H

[Timleech]

I took the then Adder from Runcorn to Preston Brook in 1972 for Mungo Park. It had the JP2 at that time.

 

Tim

[David Schweizer]

Can I suggest Pisces was aquired privately from British Waterways and was simply loaned or hired to Hillingdon until they acquired it in 1966? I have seen reference in reports of the Stratford rally to "Stan Clover's Pisces." Or perhaps Mr Clover acquired the boat on behalf of Hillingdon - in those days it was very hard to get on British Waterways tender lists so deals were often done through a third party. Note the C. Stan Clover was a well known enthusiast who later went on to own the tug Sharpness.

 

Paul H

That is certainly a possiblity, it would be fairly characteristic of the "creative" way in which the Hillingdon Youth Service operated in those days. What I do know is that Pisces carried full L.B.of.H. livery in Light Blue,White amd Black when I first saw her in 1965. After a couple of years we re-painted her in Red, Green and Yellow. We also replaced the roll down canvas sides with solid timber panels, and installed drop back windows aquired from the London Transport Underground depot at Ruislip.

Edited April 26, 2009 by David Schweizer

[pete harrison]

I am aware that The Hillingdon Narrowbaot Trust have published a leaflet that states that Pisces ws aquired in 1966, but this in not correct, she was aquired earlier than that. I joined her crew in 1965 and I know that she visited the IWA rally in Stratford on Avon in 1964. There are two well pubished photos of her at the rally where she is shown breasted up to Joe Skinner's Friendship, one of the photos clearly shows two of the Borough's Youth Officers on board together with one of the early regular crew members and his girlfriend.. I can identify and name them all. If I knew how to post photos I would do so, but if you PM your email address I can send them to you.

 

The Lister went into Pisces a little later than 1970, the Turner was still in her when I moved to Birmingham in September 197I. Tim Snowdon did not join Pisces until about 1973, by which time everyone assocated with her in the earlier years had severed all relationships, and there was no one around who actually knew the history first hand. This was nothing to do with Tim but a consequence of the legacy of worsening relationships between the volunteer crew and the local Authority, prior to his arrival.

 

Edited to add:- I have been thinking and I think that Tim Snowdon arrived much later than 1973, I am sure there was someone before him but I cannot recall his name. Kieth Lodge would know.

 

I am aware of three photographs depicting PISCES at Stratford in 1964, but of course there may well be more. They were published in Waterways World August 1989 page 55, Waterways World May 2001 page 58 and Waterways World June 2007 page 79 with the latter being the only one showing people on board.

 

Being the sad person that I am I actually have a record of PISCES Lister SR3 engine serial number, which is dated 1970 (20 on the serial number plate) and upon which I based my statement "Lister SR3 fitted in about 1970". I do not recall where the date "about 1982" came from for the Lister HR2 being fitted but I also have this engines serial number which dates it as 1978 !

 

I took the then Adder from Runcorn to Preston Brook in 1972 for Mungo Park. It had the JP2 at that time.

 

Tim

 

Thanks Tim, thats the earliest date I have for the Lister JP2 being in ADDER.

[Timleech]

Thanks Tim, thats the earliest date I have for the Lister JP2 being in ADDER.

 

My recollection - bearing in mind that this was a long time ago - is that the JP looked as though it had been there for quite a while.

Is Mungo himself no longer contactable (left the scene completely/met an early demise/whatever)?

 

Tim

[Admiral]

Is Mungo himself no longer contactable (left the scene completely/met an early demise/whatever)?

 

 

I have asked Tim Higton for some contact details for Mungo Park. He still talks to him.

 

S

[David Schweizer]

I am aware of three photographs depicting PISCES at Stratford in 1964, but of course there may well be more. They were published in Waterways World August 1989 page 55, Waterways World May 2001 page 58 and Waterways World June 2007 page 79 with the latter being the only one showing people on board.

 

Being the sad person that I am I actually have a record of PISCES Lister SR3 engine serial number, which is dated 1970 (20 on the serial number plate) and upon which I based my statement "Lister SR3 fitted in about 1970". I do not recall where the date "about 1982" came from for the Lister HR2 being fitted but I also have this engines serial number which dates it as 1978 !

 

 

 

Thanks Tim, thats the earliest date I have for the Lister JP2 being in ADDER.

 

The two people standing on the roof are Leslie Brotherton (Principal Youth Officer), and Laurie Gleeson (Youth Officer responsible for Outdoor Pursuits) The chap in the foreground in a tweed jacket is Mike Day, and the girl next to him is his girlfriend Megan. The chap on the working boat with his back to the photographer, and talking to Joe Skinner looks like Dennis Papworth.

 

 

The engine may have been dated 1970, but it cetainly was not fitted then, We took Pisces to the Northampton IWA Rally in 1971 and the Turner was still in her then. I always understood that the Lister was fitted when the new cabin was put on, and the engine hole restored to it's correct position.

 

I am fairly certain that it was at the Northampton rally that we took up the challenge of a tug of war from Binky Bush on PEARL We tied a line bow to bow and pulled her the full length of the rally. From recollection Pearl had a 36hp lister (but I do not know which model) which is the same horse power the Turner was rated at.

Edited April 26, 2009 by David Schweizer