BMF contract

[Bat & Frog]

Hi all,

We are just about to sign our contract for our build. We have what looks like a standard BMF contract. Is there anything we should look closely at before signing. Thanks

[david and julie]

I believe your supposed to check that the builder is actually a paid up BMF member and not just using copies of their documents.

[Bat & Frog]

They are just using a copy. They've applied to BMF, not members as yet. So we have no backing from BMF if things go wrong. The contract itself seems fair.

[denboy]

They are just using a copy. They've applied to BMF, not members as yet. So we have no backing from BMF if things go wrong. The contract itself seems fair.

 

If they are not members i would suggest that its not worth the paper its written on ie the bmf wont uphold the contract if it all goes pear shaped,, garry will be able to put you on the right track i maybe 100% wrong garry wont be,, suggest you wait till he replies,,

[dor]

I seem to remember that even if the BMF contract is kosher, it is weighted very heavily in favour of the builder.

 

Just don't hand over money ahead of work done and make sure you have proof of title to the build - i.e. get documentation detailing the build number, take photos of the build number welded into the base plate and tun up unanoounced a couple of times a week to check progress and keep taking pics.

[starman]

You can see the 'officiial' BMF contract on the Canalboat Builders Association website http://www.c-b-a.co.uk - needs a bit of searching out even there (look in the Frequently Asked Questions section).

 

Even when using one of the contracts many people would advise hiring an independent surveyor to keep a check on progress - he can make sure work is going according to schedule and, importantly, according to the Recreational Craft Directive standards. Very useful if you are not local to the builder and/or not technically knowledgeable yourself.

[Gary Peacock]

The BMF don't take too kindly to non members using their paperwork or implying membership so saying they have applied for membership while doing this seems a bit strange?

 

The BMF use a verification system with potential new members including their compliance to the Recreational Craft Directive it might be a good idea to wait until they actually complete this process and become members to avoid any unpleasant surprises.

 

It is also worth noting that while the BMF is the controlling federation in the industry the Canal Boat Builders Association is their representation in the canal market and they operate a Code of Practise for construction of canal boats.

 

The BMF contract itself is rather generic and out of date we use a slightly modified version with revised payment schedule.

 

BMF membership etc isn't the be all and end all but does offer some guarantees and assistance if it goes pear shaped, saying that there have been some disturbing cases where companies have cancelled their membership and gone on to have problems at which point the BMF have shown absolutely no interest.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Gary Peacock

[Bat & Frog]

For us it is very clear that they are not members and as I said we understand we could not get any backing from BMF should things go wrong. My partner (the Bat ) checked with BMF and they have applied - but again, this does not mean much until they become members. I'd think they have got the contract template from BMF if they have been in contact with them. Also I was thinking that if you are a new company, you must start from somewhere? Who is safe in this economic climate - even a well established builder may go bust. We recognise we are taking a bit higher than recommended risk. Let's hope you don't have tell us "I told you"

 

Gary thanks for the mention of the Recreational Craft Directive - I'll check that out.

 

I have compared our contract against the BMF contract template with Word's compare facility and they are the same. (thanks starman for the link). I did the same yesterday with an older version of the BMF template - and it looks like the terms have become more favourable for the Purchaser which is very positive.

 

The boat itself, by the way, is a 60ftx10ft sailaway, fully painted outside, battened & spray foamed, with floor and worcester windows. As it is not fully fitted, it is cheaper and our world would not end even if we lost all that money... but we are not going to lose it! *cross fingers*

 

The Frog

[Gary Peacock]

The Recreational Craft Directive although much disliked by boatbuilders and sailaway owners is very important to you at the time you purchase the boat, although the builder will not be CE marking the boat (That's down to you if you choose) the boat to it's stage of completion when you take delivery must comply to the legal requirements of CE marking.

 

The builder will supply you with a annex IIIa declaration of conformity to the Recreational Craft Directive for a part completed boat.

 

The boatbuilder by law needs to maintain records to prove the conformity and how it was arrived at.

 

Unfortunately the system is widely abused especially where the boat is not CE marked by the builder because problems will only arise at a later date when the boat is completed.

 

I have no idea who your builder is and they will hopefully be up to speed on all this but the mention of the boat being wide makes this RCD thing more important, the annex IIIa in reality will mainly refer to the hull construction and the reality is that even the worst built narrowboat will usually comply (This is to do with the way the calculations work with a narrowboats "strange" proportions) but on a wider boat where the proportions become more "boat like" the engineering practises and material specifications need to change rather than simply building a wider narrowboat.

 

It is worth trawling around the forum for info on the RCD and asking any potential builder a few questions about their levels of compliance and how it is achieved along with asking to view the technical files for any boats in build or completed.

 

The reaction to these kind of requests can be very telling about who you are getting involved with and what you are likely to get for your money.

 

I would also reccomend getting a surveyor involved if you feel at all uneasy.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Gary Peacock

[starman]

I'm not sure that being members of the BMF is any particular guarantee of virtue -- there are plenty of good boatbuilders who aren't members. The BMF doesn't guarantee your money back if the company goes bust or oversee or guarantee workmanship even though it does have a code of practice etc. Personally I wouild have a solicitor check over a contract, agree to pay stage payments only after not before work is done and have a surveyor go to inspect the work in progress.

You could also ask Forum members for past experiences with the company in question which should give you some good pointers too.

[LEO]

The boat itself, by the way, is a 60ftx10ft sailaway, fully painted outside, battened & spray foamed, with floor and worcester windows. As it is not fully fitted, it is cheaper and our world would not end even if we lost all that money... but we are not going to lose it! *cross fingers*

 

The Frog

 

Can't believe I just read that - have you just won the lottery or something?.

 

I note you are using a newy established company.......mmm.

 

Please tell me this is a 'wind up'

 

Leo

[bottle]

and is this newly established company, connected to a newly wound-up, bankrupt one.

[Bat & Frog]

Hi, sorry if my money comment was a bit odd, but we have considered the worst option - losing it all - and it would not end our world. Difficult it would be, but we have experience of being poor, ;-). We have noted they are a new company. Because we are aware it may be risky, we are here on the forum hoping to find help and advice - which we have got :-) Frog.

[alan_fincher]

If I were in your shoes, I'd be starting another thread, asking members to PM you any experiences of a company that you named.

 

You might just learn something that saved you a whole heap of grief, (although I accept that outwardly well respected ones have been just as likely to go t*ts up, as ones that have a "reputation").

[Bat & Frog]

When deciding whether to use this company, I was given the name of a surveyor who had visited the factory. I searched the web and found the surveyors site and contact details. A long established business, which from the detail didn't appear to be a monkey ! A chat with the surveyor confirmed that the boats are being built to RCD and certificated to stage of delivery. While there are only so many things that can be discussed over the phone, I was given no reason to doubt the professionalism of the build.

 

And no, it not coming from merseyside, although a friend bought a shell from there 2 years back and is considering buying another, if he can put down small deposit and pay most on inspection/completion.

 

Thanks for everyones advice, we will keep you informed as to where we end up !

 

Bat

[Navelmonster]

When deciding whether to use this company, I was given the name of a surveyor who had visited the factory. I searched the web and found the surveyors site and contact details. A long established business, which from the detail didn't appear to be a monkey ! A chat with the surveyor confirmed that the boats are being built to RCD and certificated to stage of delivery. While there are only so many things that can be discussed over the phone, I was given no reason to doubt the professionalism of the build.

 

And no, it not coming from merseyside, although a friend bought a shell from there 2 years back and is considering buying another, if he can put down small deposit and pay most on inspection/completion.

 

Thanks for everyones advice, we will keep you informed as to where we end up !

 

Bat

 

Hi Frog & Bat

 

My wife and I are planning a sailaway and have just given a "boatbuilder" the bums rush.

 

I can't mention the name for legal reasons but they are new on the market and are an eastern european firm. Same nationality as Mr Sheen Ha Ha

 

We gave them a £1000 build slot deposit for start in Oct 1st. However as we discussed finer points of design it became apparent they wern't very technically knowledgable, not even knowing what a 'Chine' was in relation to the hull. Language is also a barrier to technical and financial discussions.

 

We agreed 1st payment on start of build but that started demanding money in August and that I sign the BMF contract before I was happy with the design!

 

Then they started saying the price would go up if I didn't sign the contract without any attempt to repair our damaged confidence.

 

This boat will be our home and there is no way we could commit more money to this company so we broke off the order.

 

I claim the breakdown was due to their behaviour and want my deposit back.

 

They are refusing so I have a fight on my hands.

 

So tell all your boaty pals don't go there!

 

We are now seeking an english builder. We are off the see Price Fallows next month.

 

Regards

 

 

Navelmonster

[Gary Peacock]

I doubt very much you will get your deposit back due to the timing involved to the intended start date, if they have anything in writing or even claim you have entered into a verbal contract then it could cost more to fight than what you will ever get back.

 

What terms did they give you in reguards to the deposit we used to take 2K refundable less £175.00 admin fee up to 28 days before the signing of the contract and order of the steel. (In effect a month before the start date.)

 

It's not a good thing when someone cancels on you at short notice in the boatbuilding game it can often result in no cash flow and rapid insolvency if you can't fill the build slot.

 

But look on the bright side it could have cost you a lot more money and stress.

[eldesira]

You can see the 'officiial' BMF contract on the Canalboat Builders Association website http://www.c-b-a.co.uk - needs a bit of searching out even there (look in the Frequently Asked Questions section).

 

Even when using one of the contracts many people would advise hiring an independent surveyor to keep a check on progress - he can make sure work is going according to schedule and, importantly, according to the Recreational Craft Directive standards. Very useful if you are not local to the builder and/or not technically knowledgeable yourself.

 

 

I've been looking for a copy of the BMF contract and followed your suggestion to look on the CBA website. There is a contract there but it's not headed up as BMF. Also, it doesn't specify percentages to be paid at the various stages. Is this something that varies from one builder to another?

 

What I'd really like to know is what percentage of the total payment should be paid at the stage when the hull is delivered to the builders. If I've paid, for example a deposit + 45%, and then the builder goes bust, can I be sure that I haven't paid more than it's worth.