New marinas

[Naughty Cal]

Very helpful (and quick!) answer and thanks+++. Hmmm interesting - so it goes on then.

 

A friend at work (whose sister is doing this) said that if you live in a static caravan park that is only open 10 months a year, you don't pay council tax. You then of course have to find somewhere to doss for the other two months. It makes me think that 10 months on a mooring and two months cruising might provide an idyllic solution.

 

You are right about Big Brother though. As they become more desperate for funds, they will hunt any revenue source ever harder. Its important to have no illusions about that I think (depressingly, but best not live in denial!)

 

It depends on the marina. At ours you can spend upto 11 months of the year "living" aboard your boat. How they police this i have no idea as there are over 450 boats in the place and they dont know who is and isnt there at any one time. However in practice it is easy to spend 1 month a year out of the marina. We have done more than this already this year.

 

Electric and water provision will again depend on the marina. Ours has no closed season, the place is open 365 days per year, you come and go as you choose. Electric is paid for with pre payment cards and water is included in the berthing fees,each berth having a designated electric and water point.

[LoneEcho]

Apparently the new (long awaited) marina at Roydon Mill had deposits for about 20% (total capacity 309) of the moorings about a month or so ago. As this was a nominal refundable deposit of £100 it remains to be seen whether these will be taken, or indeed when the prices are published (no we don't even have an official price yet !) it may increase interest. I have been told that the moorings are leisure moorings with 12 month licence. As yet have not been told of any restrictions on number of continuous nights we can stay etc. The plan is to stay as much on the boat as possible and would be happy to pay council tax. In the summer hoping to be off the marina quite a bit, and am lucky enough to have a flat to fall back on depending how strict the marina is policed. I guess it is a bit of a suck it and see situation. If anyone has any further info on Roydon Mill please let me know.

 

 

Laurie

[magpie patrick]

You seem to be trying to plant the static caravan site model onto marinas.

 

Basically, it doesn't work like that.

 

Whilst there are certainly static caravan sites that you can stay at for 10 months of the year, then bugger off to Majorca for a couple of months, with marinas, it tends to be that if you spend more than about a fortnight on board, it is regarded as residential use.

 

That might be the view an individual marina operator would take but any planning authority that attempted to take enforcement action against someone who had only been observed on board for a fortnight wouldn't get very far. They'd have to establish it over a period of some months and then look at other factors, like where mail is sent to, whether they ever "reside" somewhere else etc.

 

Also bear in mind that it is the berth not the boat that is residential for planning permission purposes, the fact that a boat that is someone's home ties up doesn't automatically make the berth residential.

[Mikeonb4c]

It depends on the marina. At ours you can spend upto 11 months of the year "living" aboard your boat. How they police this i have no idea as there are over 450 boats in the place and they dont know who is and isnt there at any one time. However in practice it is easy to spend 1 month a year out of the marina. We have done more than this already this year.

 

Electric and water provision will again depend on the marina. Ours has no closed season, the place is open 365 days per year, you come and go as you choose. Electric is paid for with pre payment cards and water is included in the berthing fees,each berth having a designated electric and water point.

 

Really useful replies (for me at least!) and thanks everyone. I like the sound of a marina like Phylis's one

 

I really may want to try living on a canal boat (I'll avoid the 'narrow' word though that is probably what I'd get, just for accommodation reasons as its a travelling home that interests me). I may be on a tight budget (being made redundant at 59 with poor prospect of another job) so would like to see if there is a way I can stay for decent periods near where my children can visit me, while being able to do a reasonable amount of canal roaming, but without paying more in residential type fees and council tax (for services not received!) etc. than is necessary.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Mikeonb4c

[Naughty Cal]

Really useful replies (for me at least!) and thanks everyone. I like the sound of a marina like Phylis's one

 

It does come with a premium though im afraid at £135 per metre per year. Luckily ours is only 7.23m

[Doorman]

Are the authorites (BW) getting ready to spring a trap and/or will this all led to the loss of something. For example, once there is a decent supply of marinas, the rules about mooring for nowt on the canal bank may get squeezed? Pay and display anyone?

 

 

You could be onto something there. We've already been flashed by speed cameras on the L&L.

[Doorman]

Yes, there probably are.

 

However, we need to bear in mind that there is huge inertia in the moorings market. People who have a mooring are not in the business of moving every 5 minutes. Additionally, very new marinas tend so look very stark for a couple of years, which discourages uptake

 

An increase in moorings in one area that is not matched by an increase in adjacent areas tends to result in a gradual rebalancing as people who want to moor in that area, but moored elsewhere because that was where they could get a mooring, drift in over a coupel of years.

 

 

Quite an accurate assessment. We currently moor at Scarisbrick Marina on the L&L, which has a potential of 200 berths but presently having only about 90 occupied. It does look stark at the moment, especially as many of the 90 are out cruising for the season. Conversely, at the two marinas on the Rufford branch of the L&L, which are more established, there appears to be very few vacancies available, possibly because most of the moorers on either marina are less inclined to venture afar.

 

At Sacrisbrick there has been a slow but consistant influx of moorers from various other marinas across the north west, probably due to the fact that they've been enlightened to the fact that the owner is not such an ogre as once portrayed.

 

Mike

 

Really useful replies (for me at least!) and thanks everyone. I like the sound of a marina like Phylis's one

 

I really may want to try living on a canal boat (I'll avoid the 'narrow' word though that is probably what I'd get, just for accommodation reasons as its a travelling home that interests me). I may be on a tight budget (being made redundant at 59 with poor prospect of another job) so would like to see if there is a way I can stay for decent periods near where my children can visit me, while being able to do a reasonable amount of canal roaming, but without paying more in residential type fees and council tax (for services not received!) etc. than is necessary.

 

 

We've got a 40' narrow boat, recently refitted for liveaboard use, on our marina brokerage. It's absolutely spot on, I should know, I refitted it!

[Mikeonb4c]

We've got a 40' narrow boat, recently refitted for liveaboard use, on our marina brokerage. It's absolutely spot on, I should know, I refitted it!

 

Yes, I've been thinking that 45-50' ought to be adequate in size as liveaboard accommodation for a single man, whilst being affordable with many advertised at around £30k and that seem well presented and specced. Would others agree?

[mayalld]

Quite an accurate assessment. We currently moor at Scarisbrick Marina on the L&L, which has a potential of 200 berths but presently having only about 90 occupied. It does look stark at the moment, especially as many of the 90 are out cruising for the season. Conversely, at the two marinas on the Rufford branch of the L&L, which are more established, there appears to be very few vacancies available, possibly because most of the moorers on either marina are less inclined to venture afar.

 

At Sacrisbrick there has been a slow but consistant influx of moorers from various other marinas across the north west, probably due to the fact that they've been enlightened to the fact that the owner is not such an ogre as once portrayed.

 

Sounds fair enough.

 

Two of the boats there (Mr Mac and Tilly Timewaster) used to moor with us, before it got too expensive for a breasted up online mooring.

[Doorman]

Sounds fair enough.

 

Two of the boats there (Mr Mac and Tilly Timewaster) used to moor with us, before it got too expensive for a breasted up online mooring.

 

 

I know Tilly Timewaster. They are always out and about on the system whenever work commitments allow. Mr Mac I think could be Graham & Sue, who moor quite close to us. They too eminate from your neck of the woods. I'm convinced that Graham has a plastic fish permenantly hooked to his fishing line and whenever I pop my head out of the hatch he suddenly yanks it out of the water to impress me

 

Mike

[dor]

Quite an accurate assessment. We currently moor at Scarisbrick Marina on the L&L, which has a potential of 200 berths but presently having only about 90 occupied. It does look stark at the moment, especially as many of the 90 are out cruising for the season. Conversely, at the two marinas on the Rufford branch of the L&L, which are more established, there appears to be very few vacancies available, possibly because most of the moorers on either marina are less inclined to venture afar.

 

I appreciate the thinking here as it does make sense that it takes time for a marina to fill, and if people have signed up for a year they are unlikely to move beforehand.

But just for comparison, Tattenhall & Aqueduct marinas opened at much the same time. The former is still barely 1/4 occupied whilst the latter was full within three months of opening. Similar prices & facilities - in fact the former have reduced their prices.

[mayalld]

I know Tilly Timewaster. They are always out and about on the system whenever work commitments allow. Mr Mac I think could be Graham & Sue, who moor quite close to us. They too eminate from your neck of the woods. I'm convinced that Graham has a plastic fish permenantly hooked to his fishing line and whenever I pop my head out of the hatch he suddenly yanks it out of the water to impress me

 

Mike

 

Yup, that's the chaps!

 

Say hi to them from Dave and Bev!

[Doorman]

Yes, I've been thinking that 45-50' ought to be adequate in size as liveaboard accommodation for a single man, whilst being affordable with many advertised at around £30k and that seem well presented and specced. Would others agree?

 

We lived on the boat for over two years whilst waiting for a suitable builder for our next craft. We also have a lunatic Labrador who takes up considerable space in the cabin. Never had a problem with enough room for comfort though. We are also fortunate to have a four bedroom house, but I've forgotten what it looks like as we prefer life on the water.

 

I believe that a 40' to 45' length boat is a good start when venturing onto the canals or rivers to live. You can maneouvre them into short mooring spaces along the canal and as you say, at an affordable cost for a single person.

 

Good luck in seeking a suitable new home and read as much advice as possible about boats and the waterway system, before you commit any cash to a second hand boat. There have been well chronicled disasters published on this forum and in the boating mags regarding ill informed buyers who've been fleeced in the market place.

 

Mike

[Mikeonb4c]

We lived on the boat for over two years whilst waiting for a suitable builder for our next craft. We also have a lunatic Labrador who takes up considerable space in the cabin. Never had a problem with enough room for comfort though. We are also fortunate to have a four bedroom house, but I've forgotten what it looks like as we prefer life on the water.

 

I believe that a 40' to 45' length boat is a good start when venturing onto the canals or rivers to live. You can maneouvre them into short mooring spaces along the canal and as you say, at an affordable cost for a single person.

 

Good luck in seeking a suitable new home and read as much advice as possible about boats and the waterway system, before you commit any cash to a second hand boat. There have been well chronicled disasters published on this forum and in the boating mags regarding ill informed buyers who've been fleeced in the market place.

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike - thats really reassuring to read. I absolutely intend to read up, ask questions on here and generally studying the form (starting from a standpoint of 'doing this is not a good idea because...'). If I can knock down my concerns and still want to do it then great, if not then walk away. But determination can overcome a lot of obstacles! None of this can happen anyway until we've sold the house and traded down so plenty of time to champ at the bit whilst being restrained by circumstance!

 

Mike

[Doorman]

I appreciate the thinking here as it does make sense that it takes time for a marina to fill, and if people have signed up for a year they are unlikely to move beforehand.

But just for comparison, Tattenhall & Aqueduct marinas opened at much the same time. The former is still barely 1/4 occupied whilst the latter was full within three months of opening. Similar prices & facilities - in fact the former have reduced their prices.

 

 

Yes, I've noticed that inbalance with the two marinas. Is there any particular reason why Tattenhall is so sparcely occupied? We're on our way to Aqueduct to get the hull grit blasted and two packed. I hope their facilities live up to expectations.

 

Once blacked, we aim to visit Tattenhall as I believe the views from the marina are quite stunning. Could it be that Aqueduct is better placed geographically than at Tattenhall?

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike - thats really reassuring to read. I absolutely intend to read up, ask questions on here and generally studying the form (starting from a standpoint of 'doing this is not a good idea because...'). If I can knock down my concerns and still want to do it then great, if not then walk away. But determination can overcome a lot of obstacles! None of this can happen anyway until we've sold the house and traded down so plenty of time to champ at the bit whilst being restrained by circumstance!

 

Mike

 

 

Try and forget that standpoint until you've experienced life on the water. You don't mention whether you've sampled boating yet via a hire boat or loan from a boating friend. It's only our opinion, but, having spent years of our time in stressful jobs/businesses, we find the peace and tranquility to be quite a healing experience (although you wouldn't think that with some of the crazy rants I've posted on here ).

 

I'd suggest that you try before you buy, at a period away from peak holiday seasons when it can become a little manic.

 

Mike

 

Yup, that's the chaps!

 

Say hi to them from Dave and Bev!

 

 

Ok, will do when we get back in about a months time. Ironically, I've only just discovered Graham and Sue's name of their boat from your post, as there's no signage on the boat, only fishing rods and tackle

 

It's a small world on this forum

 

Mike

[dor]

Is there any particular reason why Tattenhall is so sparcely occupied?

 

I, and plenty of other boaters who know the area, believe GJP got in wrong on several points. Yes the views of Beeston Castle and Peckforton are impressive, but you don't spend your life gazing in one direction.

 

At the time, BW were actively encouraging and supporting the building of new marinas. They assumed that if more marina berths were available, most of the boats on online moorings would be delighted to move in - a very wrong assumption for a number of reasons.

 

Just outside the Tattenhall marina is about two or three miles of continuous offside online moorings. This stretch, Golden Nook, is notorious for its length, particularly as it is quite a narrow canal. The marina people no doubt thought that many of these moorers would move into the marina but I doubt a single one has. This view was probably encouraged by BW's assertion that they would remove one online mooring for every ten marina berths. The majority of the boats at Golden Nook are not, how shall I put it, members of the shiny boat brigade and had no desire to start paying three times as much to moor in a wet caravan park.

 

Then there is the location. Maybe the marina builders though there would be a big demand for "cheap holiday homes close to Chester", but whilst Chester is a thriving tourist location and shopping centre during the day, its character is somewhat darker at night. Once you have seen it, why would you want to stay next to it? The city is five heavy locks away, and there is little good mooring there unless you venture down the three lock staircase to the basin, which puts many boaters off. Most boaters moored at Golden Nook are happy not to go anywhere and would rather stay on their moorings tending their gardens.

 

Of course, if BW or the marina developers had thought to ask the opinion of local boaters, they may have rethought their plans, or at least down-scaled it. As it is, now that the marina is having to pay BW's fee (which is based on berths, not occupancy) the likelyhood of financial failure is looking increasingly likely.

Edited August 5, 2010 by dor

[mayalld]

Ok, will do when we get back in about a months time. Ironically, I've only just discovered Graham and Sue's name of their boat from your post, as there's no signage on the boat, only fishing rods and tackle

 

Named after the dog!

[magpie patrick]

As it is, now that the marina is having to pay BW's fee (which is based on berths, not occupancy) the likelyhood of financial failure is looking increasingly likely.

 

Having just, yet again, waded through a network access agreement in my view something is going to have to give if we aren't to see multiple bankruptcies. BW inmplement this charge on a sliding scale, zero in year 1, 50% in year 2, 100% thereafter, however, the clock starts ticking on the projected opening date not the actual opening date, so if the programme for construction slips then the grace period is reduced, and given the desirability of marinas having some moorings spare (to allow turnover around the canal system) the charge shouldn't be based on 100% occupancy anyway. I think the term "agreement" is something of a misnomer for these documents.

 

In addition, assuming the normal process was followed, Tattenhall will have submitted an application including a feasibility plan, which should have identified demand. BW would have had to approve this, so BW presumably approved a business plan that was not worth the paper it was written on, and thus their hands are not entirely clean in this matter.

[dor]

Spot on magpie. I suspect costings were based on something like 70% occupancy in the second year. The shortfall in income against cashflow projection is huge. Also I understand that non-mooring income at the mooring is likely to be well below projexted as well.

[Mikeonb4c]

Try and forget that standpoint until you've experienced life on the water. You don't mention whether you've sampled boating yet via a hire boat or loan from a boating friend. It's only our opinion, but, having spent years of our time in stressful jobs/businesses, we find the peace and tranquility to be quite a healing experience (although you wouldn't think that with some of the crazy rants I've posted on here ).

 

I'd suggest that you try before you buy, at a period away from peak holiday seasons when it can become a little manic.

 

Mike

 

Thanks for that. I didn't mean to sound negative, its just I use this technique (of scepticism) in order to check any tendency towards foolish dreaming. My only experience of narrowboating is a couple of holidays when a boy, lots of chats in recent years with narrowboat owners, and I'm going down to stay on friends' narrowboat this weekend plus to talk it all over, look over boats etc. No cash or time ot take a holiday on one at present so anything like that (and purchase come to that!) is well into the future. The peace, tranquilility, landscapes and adventure are all what attract me. On the other hand, I will need to decide whether living alone on a boat will for me be blissful aloneness or unhappy loneliness. Lots to think about!

Edited August 5, 2010 by Mikeonb4c

[Doorman]

Thanks for that. I didn't mean to sound negative, its just I use this technique (of scepticism) in order to check any tendency towards foolish dreaming. My only experience of narrowboating is a couple of holidays when a boy, lots of chats in recent years with narrowboat owners, and I'm going down to stay on friends' narrowboat this weekend plus to talk it all over, look over boats etc. No cash or time ot take a holiday on one at present so anything like that (and purchase come to that!) is well into the future. The peace, tranquilility, landscapes and adventure are all what attract me. On the other hand, I will need to decide whether living alone on a boat will for me be blissful aloneness or unhappy loneliness. Lots to think about!

 

 

Not a bad technique and one which I should have employed when meeting my first wife, could have saved me years of wasted time and unhappiness. Fortunately, I possess a happy demeanour that has carried me through most hurdles and challenges so far.

 

I would say that there's a possibility of a new lease of life ahead if you choose to live on a boat. Overall, there's a different type of community on the water and if you chose to moor on a marina, you would soon make some new like minded friends. Take a stroll down a busy canal sometime and check out the boaters that pass you by, their contented faces are a good indication of whether they enjoy life or not. Of course, you'll always get an exception, whereby the people on board wouldn't be happy even if they'd just won the lottery (for the second time).

 

As for lonelyness, try developing a love of a good dog. Faithful and full of unconditional love. Many people could learn from them

 

Good luck and keep your chin up.

 

Mike

 

Named after the dog!

 

 

Should have been 'Jaws', after that plastic fish he keeps hauling out of the water

[Doorman]

I, and plenty of other boaters who know the area, believe GJP got in wrong on several points. Yes the views of Beeston Castle and Peckforton are impressive, but you don't spend your life gazing in one direction.

 

At the time, BW were actively encouraging and supporting the building of new marinas. They assumed that if more marina berths were available, most of the boats on online moorings would be delighted to move in - a very wrong assumption for a number of reasons.

 

Just outside the Tattenhall marina is about two or three miles of continuous offside online moorings. This stretch, Golden Nook, is notorious for its length, particularly as it is quite a narrow canal. The marina people no doubt thought that many of these moorers would move into the marina but I doubt a single one has. This view was probably encouraged by BW's assertion that they would remove one online mooring for every ten marina berths. The majority of the boats at Golden Nook are not, how shall I put it, members of the shiny boat brigade and had no desire to start paying three times as much to moor in a wet caravan park.

 

Then there is the location. Maybe the marina builders though there would be a big demand for "cheap holiday homes close to Chester", but whilst Chester is a thriving tourist location and shopping centre during the day, its character is somewhat darker at night. Once you have seen it, why would you want to stay next to it? The city is five heavy locks away, and there is little good mooring there unless you venture down the three lock staircase to the basin, which puts many boaters off. Most boaters moored at Golden Nook are happy not to go anywhere and would rather stay on their moorings tending their gardens.

 

Of course, if BW or the marina developers had thought to ask the opinion of local boaters, they may have rethought their plans, or at least down-scaled it. As it is, now that the marina is having to pay BW's fee (which is based on berths, not occupancy) the likelyhood of financial failure is looking increasingly likely.

 

Great answer with some very interesting points. Seems like an expensive oversight by the owners and a standard failure by BW, not to do their market research. An elementary business requirement.

 

I think we may venture down there all the same. I have relatives in Chester and concur with your view regarding the darker side of the city, particularly at night. My relatives eminate from Blacon but have now migrated further afield, without being mentally scarred by their former days of living on a sprawling urban estate.

 

Only time will tell as to whether the owners survive the overheads at such a poorly occupied marina. Let's hope that other potential developers learn from their mistakes and investigate the 'need' factor before ploughing up a field to create another wet caravan park.

 

We are presently at Aqueduct Marina awaiting grit blasting and blacking. If our first few days are anything to go by, you can see why this marina is fully subscribed with a healthy waiting list in tow. The people here are so friendly and helpful. There's a definite air of professionalism about the place, indeed, many a current or potential marina owner could do much worse than to visit here with a view to learning how to run a decent and appealing marina.

 

Mike

 

Having just, yet again, waded through a network access agreement in my view something is going to have to give if we aren't to see multiple bankruptcies. BW inmplement this charge on a sliding scale, zero in year 1, 50% in year 2, 100% thereafter, however, the clock starts ticking on the projected opening date not the actual opening date, so if the programme for construction slips then the grace period is reduced, and given the desirability of marinas having some moorings spare (to allow turnover around the canal system) the charge shouldn't be based on 100% occupancy anyway. I think the term "agreement" is something of a misnomer for these documents.

 

In addition, assuming the normal process was followed, Tattenhall will have submitted an application including a feasibility plan, which should have identified demand. BW would have had to approve this, so BW presumably approved a business plan that was not worth the paper it was written on, and thus their hands are not entirely clean in this matter.

 

 

Another good explanation! You should have been head hunted by BW, could have saved them and developers millions

[mrsmelly]

The more marinas there are the better. If this helps bring down the cost of boating and encourage more people to buy boats and discover the canals the better. If this also means less linear mooring then so be it.

I agree the more marinas the cheaper mooring will become but I for one ( and many of my friends ) detest marina type mooring, its like being a caravanner in a field and you are surrounded by others, may as well go to Butlins........Linear moorings are far nicer especialy end of farmers field etc, and I dont mind how many miles I need to go at TICKOVER to pass moored boats long may it be so.

[Gibbo]

I agree the more marinas the cheaper mooring will become..............

 

Well unfortunately you're agreeing with something that is wrong.

[mrsmelly]

Well unfortunately you're agreeing with something that is wrong.

A good friend of mine moors at Barton turns marina, when the big new marina opened up the cut ( Mercia ? ) His mooring fees DROPPED by nearly one third, now I dont think that happened because the owners got all lovey dovey with him it was simple COMPETITION dropped the price. This is fact not fiction.