Freezing gas

[TheWilk]

just thought I'd reignite this topic...

 

I've got a portable gas fire on board that takes butane. Lately it's been very temperamental, goes out after a few minutes. When I check the bottle it still feels far too heavy to be empty.

 

The ambient temperature of my boat has been around 2 degrees... so I'm guessing not cold enough for all the gas to turn liquid but cold enough for it not to be in optimum working condition. When I switch it on, the boat heats up to around 18 degrees pretty quickly but this still doesn't seem to affect the gas bottle because it splutters out soon.

 

It's a 7kg bottle - I tried lagging it with a coat but that didn't make much difference! Any suggestions? Anyone use one of these with propane? The butane regulator is really handy because it has a switch on it, I've never seen one like that for propane.

 

Also, next time I buy a bottle of butane that's been kept outdoors, how do I get it warm enough to work?!

 

Thanks

[Dave Hannigan]

Hot water bottle, electric blanket or just snuggle up all cosy????? :lol:

[alan_fincher]

just thought I'd reignite this topic...

 

I've got a portable gas fire on board that takes butane. Lately it's been very temperamental, goes out after a few minutes. When I check the bottle it still feels far too heavy to be empty.

You probably don't want to hear this, and I know it has been aired before.

 

If your portable fire is something like a "cabinet heater", with the cylinder inside, you really should think twice about your safety.

 

The BSS mandates that you normally have your cylinders, regulator, and all the high pressure side of the system in a dedicated locker, that vents overboard, for very good reasons.

 

As soon as you bring the equivalent into your cabin, any leak would end up potentially forming an explosive mix in your accommodation area.

 

The presence of such a heater at the time of a BSS inspection would, I believe, mean a fail, (although others have chosen to interpret the regulations differently - and, in my view, wrongly).

 

Do you not get massive condensation problems by using this type of appliance ?

 

Alan

[AlanH]

You probably don't want to hear this, and I know it has been aired before.

 

If your portable fire is something like a "cabinet heater", with the cylinder inside, you really should think twice about your safety.

 

The BSS mandates that you normally have your cylinders, regulator, and all the high pressure side of the system in a dedicated locker, that vents overboard, for very good reasons.

 

As soon as you bring the equivalent into your cabin, any leak would end up potentially forming an explosive mix in your accommodation area.

 

The presence of such a heater at the time of a BSS inspection would, I believe, mean a fail, (although others have chosen to interpret the regulations differently - and, in my view, wrongly).

 

Do you not get massive condensation problems by using this type of appliance ?

 

Alan

I'd agree. I used to heat our workshop with butane cabinet type heaters and I suffered a CO pisoning incident. It makes you very confused and sleepy. If it hadn't been for a mate coming in I think I would have had serious problems. Since then I stay well away from the things.

The workshop is considerably larger than a boat and I'd never dream of using one aboard.

[TheWilk]

You probably don't want to hear this, and I know it has been aired before.

 

If your portable fire is something like a "cabinet heater", with the cylinder inside, you really should think twice about your safety.

 

The BSS mandates that you normally have your cylinders, regulator, and all the high pressure side of the system in a dedicated locker, that vents overboard, for very good reasons.

 

As soon as you bring the equivalent into your cabin, any leak would end up potentially forming an explosive mix in your accommodation area.

 

The presence of such a heater at the time of a BSS inspection would, I believe, mean a fail, (although others have chosen to interpret the regulations differently - and, in my view, wrongly).

 

Do you not get massive condensation problems by using this type of appliance ?

 

Alan

 

Yes I'm aware of that, but I don't really have much choice at the moment. I don't have a wood stove but there is a gas boiler but it's really inefficient. I have a CO2 detector and I might also get a gas detector if they work with butane.

 

And yes, the condensation is a real pain.

[ChrisPy]

Yes I'm aware of that, but I don't really have much choice at the moment. I don't have a wood stove but there is a gas boiler but it's really inefficient. I have a CO2 detector and I might also get a gas detector if they work with butane.

 

And yes, the condensation is a real pain.

I can't agree that you don't have a choice. You always have a choice. Using a device like this inside a sealed boat is asking for poisoning or an explosion. It is quite simply against the rules. If you were moored near to me I would move on!

 

We had a fatality and a burnt-out boat in Bristol Marina last year, possibly as a result of similar circumstances.

 

It is not rocket science to have a portable gas fire that is fitted with a flame failure device and fixed in a safe place, supplied by a copper pipe, fed from a cylinder kept outside the cabin, probably on the foredeck. And using a Carbon Monoxide detector (not CO2 !!).

[alan_fincher]

I agree with Chris, I'm afraid.

 

What you are doing is risky, to yourself, and could be to others.

 

You urgently need to find an alternative approach.

 

I certainly would not try running one of these heaters on Propane - I believe they are specifically designed only for Butane.

 

If cabin temperatures drop to near zero, you will have difficulties getting enough gas - that's just a fact of life with Butane.

 

So far as I'm aware Propane only comes with the female type "bullet" connector on the cylinder, and there is no equivalent to the clip on regulator available with Butane.

[dor]

As someone who owned a boat that had killed the previous owner through CO poisoning, I've taken a particular interest in this subject.

 

Of all the dodgy things that you might come across, running one of these cabinet heaters inside a boat has got to be one of the most dangerous, due both to CO and the risk of a gas explosion. That the butane isn't vaporising correctly due to the cold increases the risk of CO.

 

Get rid of it now, it just isn't worth the risk. And we are not talking minor, insignificant, theoretical risks here, it is very real.

[TheWilk]

Wow... I'll sleep easy tonight!

 

When is it actually safe to use these heaters then, seeing as they're not designed for outdoor use? My boat is pretty well ventilated. The only people I know who've died on boat fires have been those with woodstoves after a night of heavy drinking...

[dor]

It's your life if you choose to kill yourself with CO poisoning. If however your boat explodes due to a gas leak you might take an innocent person with you. You do not have the right to make that choice.

[estwdjhn]

These heaters are fine, on the shore, where there are exit paths for heaver than air fumes.

 

In a boat, because you have a couple of feet of space below the waterline, with no holes for ventilation, heavier than air gas will sink, and "puddle" first in the bilges, and then in the cabin.

 

It could only take one small spark, and boom, you your boat, and some inocent bystanders could be no more.

 

Do not use gas except from a bottle in a propper locker, and even then treat it with respect.

[Alastair]

Propane and butane will not freeze in our temperatures, as has already been stated.

 

 

-5 for butane.

 

Of course the butane in the pipes can freeze, if the entire boat drops below -5. It's not under the same pressures as the gas in the bottle.

 

I've had it happen to me. I was away for 4 days, returned in -10 temperatures. The inside of the boat was at -10, the river was freezing over.

 

I had to get the solid-fuel stove going for a while, heat up some water on that, then pour the water over the gas pipes in the locker, and wait until the interior of the boat warmed.

 

I switched over to propane, problem didn't occur again.

[onthecut]

I know this to be true, because I've tried living on a butane equipped bat when it was very icy.

 

 

 

Alan

 

Do the MCC know about this new development ? Does heating the bat give you an unfair advantage on a frozen wicket ?

 

Mike.

Edited December 23, 2008 by onthecut