WEBASTO NIGHTMARE UPDATE!

[Big COL]

Some time ago I was given sight of three sets of technical specification sheets from Shell UK (Stanlow Refinery to be exact) One was for "White Diesel" titled "Low Sulpher Diesel/Ultra low Sulpher", or road fuel the stuff you get for your car from the forecourt pump, I cannot recall the exact figures but sulpher ash was less than 1% plus many additives listed for such as waxing agent, cetain enhancer etc. The second was for "Gas Oil" sub title "Medium Heavy Oil" the stuff delivered to "most" people using or asking for Red Diesel, the sulpher ash was something like 18%, no additives to speak of except "Chemical Marker", cetain number about 15 to 20 worse than "White".

The third sheet was for "Low Sulpher Gas Oil", this was to all intent the same as "White" not quite all the same additives the anti-waxing for one was missing, BUT the sulpher ash was the same as White as was the cetain number etc The one additive it did list was "Chemical Marker" i.e RED.

However no one I know has ever found an outlet for this third type, I have no idea who it was supplied to my guess is it is a product ordered in bulk i.e. tens of thousands of Litres, not from your oils and diesel/heating fuels retailer, but from the refinery maybe things like emergency stand by generators, hospitals, goverment establishments, military just my guess's but the technical sheets certainly had a Red version that was to all intents White.

david

 

Oh David what have you done.

 

When this whole red v white diesel argument originally kicked off. I stated that there were three types of diesel in general use.

1- White diesel(road use)

2- Red diesel ( agriculture, building plant use and so on)

3 -Gas oil (domestic,industrial heating oil)

I even quoted the cetane numbers for each type. Only to be ridiculed with quips like cetane number whats a cetane number? it's not in my dictionary, ha, ha, ha.( should have replied for them to buy a decent dictionary)

Therefor I was really pleased to read your account, which goes a long way to confirm my side of this debate.

Unfortunately this red v white argument has been hammered out so much that you start to lose the will to live

Lets just hope that it is believed different grades of red diesel/gasoil do exist.Seeing that since this argument/debate started the manufacturers of certain diesel heaters have now changed their opinions, resulting in them giving warnings as to what fuel should be used. A totally different stance now from them being insistent that they could run on red/gas oil.

I am pleased for all those involved in achieving a result for the underdog. Well done all of you.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Big COL

[Paul Sylvan]

Oh David what have you done.

 

When this whole red v white diesel argument originally kicked off. I stated that there were three types of diesel in general use.

1- White diesel(road use)

2- Red diesel ( agriculture, building plant use and so on)

3 -Gas oil (domestic,industrial heating oil)

I even quoted the cetane numbers for each type. Only to be ridiculed with quips like cetane number whats a cetane number? it's not in my dictionary, ha, ha, ha.( should have replied for them to buy a decent dictionary)

Therefor I was really pleased to read your account, which goes a long way to confirm my side of this debate.

Unfortunately this red v white argument has been hammered out so much that you start to lose the will to live

Lets just hope that it is believed different grades of red diesel/gasoil do exist. I am pleased for all those involved in achieving a result for the underdog. Well done all of you.

Seeing that since this argument/debate started the manufacturers of certain diesel heaters have now changed their opinions, resulting in them giving warnings as to what fuel should be used. A totally different stance now from them being insistent that they could run on red/gas oil.

 

Hi Big Col

 

Can you tell me which heater manufacturers have changed their opinions on fuel to be used, and what are they now specifying?

 

Paul

[Gary Peacock]

Seeing that since this argument/debate started the manufacturers of certain diesel heaters have now changed their opinions, resulting in them giving warnings as to what fuel should be used. A totally different stance now from them being insistent that they could run on red/gas oil.

 

Hi Big Col

 

Can you tell me which heater manufacturers have changed their opinions on fuel to be used, and what are they now specifying?

 

Paul

 

Eberspacher

Fuel supply

 

Fuel quality for diesel heaters

 

The heater can run on commercially available diesel fuel to DIN EN 590 specification.

 

Fuel for special cases

 

In special cases (above 0°C), the heater can also run on fuel oil EL or paraffin.

 

Fuel for low temperatures

 

Refineries and fuel service stations automatically adjust the fuel to normal winter temperatures (winter diesel). This means that difficulties are only to be expected for extreme drops in temperature, as also apply to the engine. Please also refer to the boat manual.

 

If the heater is run from a separate tank, please comply with the following rules:

 

For temperatures above 0°C, any kind of diesel fuel as per DIN EN 590 can be used.

 

If no special diesel fuel is available for low temperatures, then paraffin or petrol should be mixed with the fuel according to the following table:

 

Temperature Winter diesel Addition

 

0°C to –25°C 100% –––

 

–25°C to –40°C 50%* 50% paraffin or petrol

 

* or 100% special cold diesel fuel (Arctic diesel)

 

Please Note!

 

• Mixtures with used oil are not allowed.

 

• After refuelling with winter or cold diesel or the listed blends, the fuel pipes and the dosing pump must be filled with the new fuel by letting the heater run for 15 mins.

 

Operation with biodiesel (PME)

 

The heater is not certified for operation with biodiesel (EN 14214).

 

[Gary Peacock]

I have just had a look at the fuel we have supplied and the detail in reference to any ISO's is non existent, but it is very much supplied as "Gas Oil Middle Distillate" rather than red diesel.

 

Most of the local suppliers use the same source so I would guess at least around this area you are buying fuel intended for domestic heating.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[Trilby Tim]

And from as I read it here, now that tax will start to have to be paid on diesel used on boats, boaters will still get the poor quality "gas oil" type red diesel, but have to pay the full white diesel cost for it! In fact if this guy link is to be believed we'll actually pay more for it as an EU green tax because it's so dirty! This seems daft. Also daft is that it will still be permitted to use red diesel at reduced tax rate for heating, where it seems to be that heaters are what it's causing the most problems to (and it's not a system I can see working, having to declare what purpose your fuel is used for -propulsion or heating)

Incidentally, as I understand it (and I'm not sure about this) - it's not the sulphur as such which causes the problems. If anything sulphur helps (in an engine at least) as it increase the lubricity of the fuel, so reducing wear on pumps, etc. It's a problem for car engines with catalysts and particulate filters though, as it stops those working properly. The low cetane number of the fuel would explain the coking up of the heater though.

I also wonder whether the poor quality fuel could affect engines in the future. Most modern engines going into boats are car or truck derived, so are presumably designed to work with ISO 590 fuel, (even if designed to work on red diesel, it'll be the better stuff as opposed to the "gas oil" ) will running on poorer quality fuel effect them over time?

 

As I'm planning the heating arrangements for my boat at the moment I'm really unsure what to do. Will diesel heating still work out cheaper than gas if the full rate of tax has to be paid on it? Were these problems with a drip feed naturally aspirated type system or a forced air type?

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi Big Col,

 

I well remember your fuel type posting and your valued support when I first started my Eberspacher Saga. As you say, it is great that Paul has had this success and that the industry has become very aware of the outcry. I'd like to think that this forum has been one of the main movers in making it happen.

 

Gary,

Your Eberspacher posting from their manual, was one of the the first things for me, that started it all off, why did they ever allow boatbuilders to fit their boilers plumbed into the boat main tank, when nobody could get EN590 on the waterways?

 

Lets hope all manufactureres become very clear in their marketing from now on following Paul's success, thats assuming that anyone still wants to fit one!

 

Roger

Edited August 13, 2008 by Roger Gunkel

[David]

Oh David what have you done.

 

When this whole red v white diesel argument originally kicked off. I stated that there were three types of diesel in general use.

1- White diesel(road use)

2- Red diesel ( agriculture, building plant use and so on)

3 -Gas oil (domestic,industrial heating oil)

I even quoted the cetane numbers for each type. Only to be ridiculed with quips like cetane number whats a cetane number? it's not in my dictionary, ha, ha, ha.( should have replied for them to buy a decent dictionary)

Therefor I was really pleased to read your account, which goes a long way to confirm my side of this debate.

Unfortunately this red v white argument has been hammered out so much that you start to lose the will to live

Lets just hope that it is believed different grades of red diesel/gasoil do exist.Seeing that since this argument/debate started the manufacturers of certain diesel heaters have now changed their opinions, resulting in them giving warnings as to what fuel should be used. A totally different stance now from them being insistent that they could run on red/gas oil.

I am pleased for all those involved in achieving a result for the underdog. Well done all of you.

 

Hi Col

I well remember your posts and being new did not get involved to deeply, but agreed with you, all the experts kept on insisting there was all sorts of reasons why "they" were not using household diesel heating oil cos that was not real diesel they got theirs from wherever they bought it and it was "white" diesel with red dye or so they claimed, but if it came from a marine they were without doubt getting heating oil called gas oil, See Gary Peacocks post today.

 

Gary Peacock Posted Today, 09:20 AM

I have just had a look at the fuel we have supplied and the detail in reference to any ISO's is non existent, but it is very much supplied as "Gas Oil Middle Distillate" rather than red diesel.

Most of the local suppliers use the same source so I would guess at least around this area you are buying fuel intended for domestic heating.

 

I got sight of the tech stuff some time after you posted yours and it confirm all you said, I have never come across Low Sulpher red for sale from a pump, in fact I think most farmers plant hire etc also now use gas oil (heating oil) certainly one nation wide plant hire firm have been for many years I know for as fact and all the local builders I know use it for their dumpers etc.

Sorry if this restarts that old debate.

david

[Big COL]

And from as I read it here, now that tax will start to have to be paid on diesel used on boats, boaters will still get the poor quality "gas oil" type red diesel, but have to pay the full white diesel cost for it! In fact if this guy link is to be believed we'll actually pay more for it as an EU green tax because it's so dirty! This seems daft. Also daft is that it will still be permitted to use red diesel at reduced tax rate for heating, where it seems to be that heaters are what it's causing the most problems to (and it's not a system I can see working, having to declare what purpose your fuel is used for -propulsion or heating)

Incidentally, as I understand it (and I'm not sure about this) - it's not the sulphur as such which causes the problems. If anything sulphur helps (in an engine at least) as it increase the lubricity of the fuel, so reducing wear on pumps, etc. It's a problem for car engines with catalysts and particulate filters though, as it stops those working properly. The low cetane number of the fuel would explain the coking up of the heater though.

I also wonder whether the poor quality fuel could affect engines in the future. Most modern engines going into boats are car or truck derived, so are presumably designed to work with ISO 590 fuel, (even if designed to work on red diesel, it'll be the better stuff as opposed to the "gas oil" ) will running on poorer quality fuel effect them over time?

 

As I'm planning the heating arrangements for my boat at the moment I'm really unsure what to do. Will diesel heating still work out cheaper than gas if the full rate of tax has to be paid on it? Were these problems with a drip feed naturally aspirated type system or a forced air type?

 

 

Hi Tim

 

 

 

If you are in the planning stage for boat heating, I would have a look at the Hurricane heater. I have had one for 4 years. I rely on its reliability to protect the boat from freezing via a frost stat

We tend to use the boat at weekends, more so in the winter than the summer. With this type of usage I cannot winter down the boat as it is not practical, so far the heater has functioned well.

[Paul Sylvan]

And from as I read it here, now that tax will start to have to be paid on diesel used on boats, boaters will still get the poor quality "gas oil" type red diesel, but have to pay the full white diesel cost for it! In fact if this guy link is to be believed we'll actually pay more for it as an EU green tax because it's so dirty! This seems daft. Also daft is that it will still be permitted to use red diesel at reduced tax rate for heating, where it seems to be that heaters are what it's causing the most problems to (and it's not a system I can see working, having to declare what purpose your fuel is used for -propulsion or heating)

Incidentally, as I understand it (and I'm not sure about this) - it's not the sulphur as such which causes the problems. If anything sulphur helps (in an engine at least) as it increase the lubricity of the fuel, so reducing wear on pumps, etc. It's a problem for car engines with catalysts and particulate filters though, as it stops those working properly. The low cetane number of the fuel would explain the coking up of the heater though.

I also wonder whether the poor quality fuel could affect engines in the future. Most modern engines going into boats are car or truck derived, so are presumably designed to work with ISO 590 fuel, (even if designed to work on red diesel, it'll be the better stuff as opposed to the "gas oil" ) will running on poorer quality fuel effect them over time?

 

As I'm planning the heating arrangements for my boat at the moment I'm really unsure what to do. Will diesel heating still work out cheaper than gas if the full rate of tax has to be paid on it? Were these problems with a drip feed naturally aspirated type system or a forced air type?

 

Hi Tim

 

According to Webasto UK it was the sulphur in the fuel that was the problem. Their report to me stated:… “The most probable cause for the high build up of carbon and reduced burner life is due to an excessive presence of sulphur and/or other unknown properties within the fuel and/or fuel tank, and is not in any way related to a Webasto product or installation issue”.

 

Paul

[Big COL]

Eberspacher

Fuel supply

 

Fuel quality for diesel heaters

 

The heater can run on commercially available diesel fuel to DIN EN 590 specification.

 

Fuel for special cases

 

In special cases (above 0°C), the heater can also run on fuel oil EL or paraffin.

 

Fuel for low temperatures

 

Refineries and fuel service stations automatically adjust the fuel to normal winter temperatures (winter diesel). This means that difficulties are only to be expected for extreme drops in temperature, as also apply to the engine. Please also refer to the boat manual.

 

If the heater is run from a separate tank, please comply with the following rules:

 

For temperatures above 0°C, any kind of diesel fuel as per DIN EN 590 can be used.

 

If no special diesel fuel is available for low temperatures, then paraffin or petrol should be mixed with the fuel according to the following table:

 

Temperature Winter diesel Addition

 

0°C to –25°C 100% –––

 

–25°C to –40°C 50%* 50% paraffin or petrol

 

* or 100% special cold diesel fuel (Arctic diesel)

 

Please Note!

 

• Mixtures with used oil are not allowed.

 

• After refuelling with winter or cold diesel or the listed blends, the fuel pipes and the dosing pump must be filled with the new fuel by letting the heater run for 15 mins.

 

Operation with biodiesel (PME)

 

The heater is not certified for operation with biodiesel (EN 14214).

 

 

 

Gary

 

The grade/ spec DIN EN 590 is for white diesel. Are Eberspacher saying that it can only run on white diesel,or any coloured diesel, so long as it conforms to DIN EN 590?

What then is the DIN EN for Gas Oil? is this a back door ruling that these heaters cannot run on red diesel/ gas oil?

[Gary Peacock]

Gary

 

The grade/ spec DIN EN 590 is for white diesel. Are Eberspacher saying that it can only run on white diesel,or any coloured diesel, so long as it conforms to DIN EN 590?

What then is the DIN EN for Gas Oil? is this a back door ruling that these heaters cannot run on red diesel/ gas oil?

 

Yes they have been telling boatbuilders this for about five years.

 

It is very common knowledge in the boatbuilding market and Eberspacher dropped the responsibility to advice customers directly on them.

 

So why do boatbuilders use them?

 

Well they are cheap and simple to install compared to other alternatives.

[Paul Sylvan]

Webasto Nightmare Update

 

Paul Sylvan -vs.- The New Boat Co.

As some of you may remember from my previous ‘Webasto Nightmare’ post on this forum, my wife and I were sold a Webasto Central Heating Unit as part of a larger boat purchase by The New Boat Company back in October, 2006. After four months of use the Webasto heater, for whatever reason, stopped working properly. Despite numerous attempts by The New Boat Company and /or their agents to repair the unit over a period of one year (Feb 2007 – Feb 2008) the heater did not improve. In February, 2008, having suffered from unreliable heating and hot water through a second winter we asked The New Boat Company to replace the heater with a different product. The company refused despite us offering to pay for any difference in the cost of an alternative product.

 

In an attempt to ascertain the nature of the problem, Webasto UK visited our boat in December, 2007, and January, 2008, and carried out an experiment for a period of just over a month. As opposed to the normal red diesel that we had been using they asked us, for the duration of this experiment, to run the heater on white road diesel only. The heater appeared to work perfectly when run on this white diesel but when connected back up to red diesel began, over a period of time, to fail again in its ability to restart itself after its initial 30-40 minute cycle. On conclusion of the experiment, Webasto sent us a report on our heater which stated that … “The most probable cause for the high build up of carbon and reduced burner life is due to an excessive presence of sulphur and/or other unknown properties within the fuel and/or fuel tank, and is not in any way related to a Webasto product or installation issue”. In February, 2008, coming to the end of our second winter with an unreliable heating system and with The New Boat Co refusing to replace the product, we felt that a year was more than enough time for any supplier to sort out the problem. We made the decision to commence legal action against The New Boat Co. as the supplier of the goods. A Court Hearing was listed for 06 August, 2008.

 

We stated in our Court Claim that the Webasto Heater had not been fit for purpose.

 

The defence maintained “… that the heater supplied to the claimant was suitable to be run on red diesel”. They then went on to qualify this statement by stating “… that the problems experienced by the claimant are the result of the heater being filled with a lower grade of red diesel”.

 

This raised the question ‘A lower grade than what?’ We were informed by The New Boat Co. at the time of purchase that we should use red diesel. We were never informed of any particular grade of red diesel that we should use, nor were we informed of any particular grade of red diesel that we should not use. [Even now, months down the line and after numerous direct requests to Webasto UK, we still have not received a detailed British Standard fuel specification for the running of this heater.]

 

At the hearing which was at Reading County Court the judge found against The New Boat Co, and awarded us the full amount claimed along with our court costs.

 

The Judge has agreed to send us the detailed wording of his judgment in due course. However, the reasons given at the hearing for his decision we believe are fairly represented by the following:

 

1) That our Webasto heater has

not been fit for purpose

with the red diesel that was available to us on the waterways.

 

2) That there had been a

breach of contract

in that the New Boat Co. had not informed us at the time of purchase that some red diesel on the waterways may not be suitable for the heater.

*****

We believe that Webasto UK and their suppliers should as a matter of course, furnish their customers with precise written British Standard fuel specifications suitable for these heaters. As stated above, we have written to Webasto UK on several occasions recently requesting (again) this information. At the time of writing this post we have yet to receive it. However, when we do get it we’ll be sure to post it.

 

We would particularly like to thank Roger Gunkel who has not only offered his support to us, but in addition his previous Eberspacher research provided a valuable platform from which we could focus our research and build our case. We feel that justice has been served now and hope that others with similar issues may find our experiences helpful in their search for justice.

 

Paul Sylvan.

 

Today I have written to Webasto UK and Webasto Germany asking for their comments on the following statement which I have found in the Webasto Installers Installation guide, para 2 of page 7 which states that:

 

… ‘but note that red diesel is of a lower grade than road diesel, and more likely to cause problems and wear to the burner’.

 

Paul

[David]

Hi Just to confirm even further what I say and Gary says about Gas Oil or Red Diesel or Heating oil being one and the same thing and being the norm sold to power everything not running on white diesel here is JUST one of the order forms I found while searching online for other suppliers apart from the regular 3 I use (the ones I use make no bones about there being just one product sold for heating and for combustion engines as Red Diesel)

david

 

Crown Oils

GAS OIL

Also known as; red diesel, 35 seconds, medium diesel, heating oil, tractor diesel, cherry, generator fuel, digger fuel and many more.

Whatever you call Gas Oil, Crown Oil can supply you with it where you want it, when you want it.

 

CALL NOW TO PLACE AN ORDER ON

0161 762 7634

or...

REQUEST CALL BACK

NAME:

 

TEL NO:

 

E-MAIL:

 

 

 

Gas Oil is used by our industrial, commercial, agricultural and construction customers in a wide variety of uses from heating right through to tower cranes, excavators, diggers, tractors etc.

7 Reasons to use Crown for you Gas Oil requirements.

1. We have over 60 years experience in giving the customer what they want, when they want it.

2. Same/next day delivery service

3. True national coverage

4. Buy from 500-36000 litre lots or just a 205 litre barrel

5. We have the longest payment terms available in the industry, which can be collected by direct debit, credit/ debit cards or cheque.

6. Benefit from our huge buying power

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL...

7. The personal touch. You will have a designated contact to look after you, who will fulfil all of your oil needs and use their knowledge of the oil markets to your advantage.

At Crown Oil we are very proud of the excellent service we provide for our customers and would welcome the chance to show you just what we are capable of.

Please either give us a call on; 0161 762 7634 or...

REQUEST CALL BACK

NAME:

 

TEL NO:

 

E-MAIL:

[alan_fincher]

I understand that the fuel to be supplied after the duty goes on is to be low sulphur Red diesel as that is the fuel that would be able to be priced lower than road diesel and stop people using Road diesel and spilling and slopping it all the way to their boat. Very few canalside outlets currently sell it but it is expected that most / all will do so shortly..

 

as I understand it, IMHO etc etc

 

Nick

 

Nick,

 

What is your source for this, please ?

 

Any web references you can give a link to ?

 

I'm not saying it's wrong, and a number of people have suggested this. It's just I have yet to see anything that actually says it will be the case.

 

Alan

[Paul Sylvan]

Congratulations on your successful court case.

 

Please let us know if you ever get more than the court papers in your favour wont you?

 

Hi Troll

 

Yes, as of today, we have got more than just the court papers in our favour.

 

Paul

[denboy]

Hi Just to confirm even further what I say and Gary says about Gas Oil or Red Diesel or Heating oil being one and the same thing and being the norm sold to power everything not running on white diesel here is JUST one of the order forms I found while searching online for other suppliers apart from the regular 3 I use (the ones I use make no bones about there being just one product sold for heating and for combustion engines as Red Diesel)

david

 

Crown Oils

GAS OIL

Also known as; red diesel, 35 seconds, medium diesel, heating oil, tractor diesel, cherry, generator fuel, digger fuel and many more.

Whatever you call Gas Oil, Crown Oil can supply you with it where you want it, when you want it.

 

CALL NOW TO PLACE AN ORDER ON

0161 762 7634

or...

REQUEST CALL BACK

NAME:

 

TEL NO:

 

E-MAIL:

 

 

 

Gas Oil is used by our industrial, commercial, agricultural and construction customers in a wide variety of uses from heating right through to tower cranes, excavators, diggers, tractors etc.

7 Reasons to use Crown for you Gas Oil requirements.

1. We have over 60 years experience in giving the customer what they want, when they want it.

2. Same/next day delivery service

3. True national coverage

4. Buy from 500-36000 litre lots or just a 205 litre barrel

5. We have the longest payment terms available in the industry, which can be collected by direct debit, credit/ debit cards or cheque.

6. Benefit from our huge buying power

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL...

7. The personal touch. You will have a designated contact to look after you, who will fulfil all of your oil needs and use their knowledge of the oil markets to your advantage.

At Crown Oil we are very proud of the excellent service we provide for our customers and would welcome the chance to show you just what we are capable of.

Please either give us a call on; 0161 762 7634 or...

REQUEST CALL BACK

NAME:

 

TEL NO:

 

E-MAIL:

my little engines been running on "heating oil"for a couple of months now no problems

just to throw more confusion in to the debate when the new tax comes in to force are they going to increase the duty on "heating oil"

Edited August 15, 2008 by denboy

[Trilby Tim]

just to throw more confusion in to the debate when the new tax comes in to force are they going to increase the duty on "heating oil"

If it's used for propulsion then yes, and add extra tax because it's a 'dirty' fuel if some reports are to be believed. Of course when fuel for heating/electricity generation ("domestic use", so taxed at a lower rate) and for propulsion go in the same tank, who's to know how much tax gets charged? Also when the engine heats water in the calorifier, generates power and happens to also make the boat chug along does the fuel the engine uses even count as purely propulsion?

Link.

[David]

I have just had a look at the fuel we have supplied and the detail in reference to any ISO's is non existent, but it is very much supplied as "Gas Oil Middle Distillate" rather than red diesel.

 

Most of the local suppliers use the same source so I would guess at least around this area you are buying fuel intended for domestic heating.

Hi

Not only heating but every other use "Red" is used for, see some other posts I made here on this subject.

 

on my tech' sheet looked up on the web yesterday titled

Product

Sulpher Free Diesel (<10ppm) EN590 specification 10ppm sulpher,

is as we all acknowledge "white" diesel and the sheet does give a 10ppm as sulpher content

 

Again from the web titled

Product

Standard Grade Gasoil Applicable Standard BS 2869-1998

there is a sub title on this sheet extra to the above white diesel which says

" Use- In stationary diesel engines and diesel engine vechicles in duty rebated operations, such as agricultural and off highway. Can also be used as a heating oil for small furnace and boiler applications. Dyed and marked."

The sulpher content in the BS standard is recorded as mg/kg at 0.1 not ppm as in EN590

 

And here the third type which I for one have never found on general sale

 

Product

Ultra Low Sulpher Gasoil Applicable Standard BS 2896-1998, EN590-2000 HM C&E ULSD Requirement

again a sub title

"Use- In stationary diesel engines and diesel engine vechicles in duty rebated operations, such as agricultural and off highway. Can also be used as a heating oil for small furnace and boiler applications. Dyed and marked."

The sulpher content in this gasoil is recorded in ppm as 50ppm

 

I also need to point out that the 1998 tag on the BS and the 2000 tag on the EN are superceeded by later year updates but they only alter the method of testing to get the spec not the specification itself.

So even if you can find the third type it is not as "clean" as white having 5 times as much sulpher but I am not smart enough to work out what the difference is between the ppm and the mg/kg content.

david

Edited August 16, 2008 by David

[magnetman]

Hi

Not only heating but every other use "Red" is used for, see some other posts I made here on this subject.

 

on my tech' sheet looked up on the web yesterday titled

Product

Sulpher Free Diesel (<10ppm) EN590 specification 10ppm sulpher,

is as we all acknowledge "white" diesel and the sheet does give a 10ppm as sulpher content

 

Again from the web titled

Product

Standard Grade Gasoil Applicable Standard BS 2869-1998

there is a sub title on this sheet extra to the above white diesel which says

" Use- In stationary diesel engines and diesel engine vechicles in duty rebated operations, such as agricultural and off highway. Can also be used as a heating oil for small furnace and boiler applications. Dyed and marked."

The sulpher content in the BS standard is recorded as mg/kg at 0.1 not ppm as in EN590

 

And here the third type which I for one have never found on general sale

 

Product

Ultra Low Sulpher Gasoil Applicable Standard BS 2896-1998, EN590-2000 HM C&E ULSD Requirement

again a sub title

"Use- In stationary diesel engines and diesel engine vechicles in duty rebated operations, such as agricultural and off highway. Can also be used as a heating oil for small furnace and boiler applications. Dyed and marked."

The sulpher content in this gasoil is recorded in ppm as 50ppm

 

I also need to point out that the 1998 tag on the BS and the 2000 tag on the EN are superceeded by later year updates but they only alter the method of testing to get the spec not the specification itself.

So even if you can find the third type it is not as "clean" as white having 5 times as much sulpher but I am not smart enough to work out what the difference is between the ppm and the mg/kg content.

david

1000 milligrams per gram x 1000 grams per kilogram x 10 for 0.1 that appears to me to be 1 part in 10,000,000 or 0.1 ppm.

[Trilby Tim]

1000 milligrams per gram x 1000 grams per kilogram x 10 for 0.1 that appears to me to be 1 part in 10,000,000 or 0.1 ppm.

That's what I make it too, but that doesn't make sense as it's lower than the ultra low sulphur stuff

Edited to say that wikipedia confirms 1mg/kg is 1 ppm.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Tim Swait

[Nickhlx]

1000 milligrams per gram x 1000 grams per kilogram x 10 for 0.1 that appears to me to be 1 part in 10,000,000 or 0.1 ppm.

 

 

Shouldn't that be TIMES 10, not DIVIDED by 10, and then it does equal 10 ppm ??

 

i.e a thousandth part of a gram and a thousand of them , times 10 = 10 ppm ?

 

Nick

[magnetman]

Shouldn't that be TIMES 10, not DIVIDED by 10, and then it does equal 10 ppm ??

 

i.e a thousandth part of a gram and a thousand of them , times 10 = 10 ppm ?

 

Nick

0.1 is ten times smaller than 1 so if there is 0.1 of something there is ten times less of it than if there was 1 of it.

 

Edited August 16, 2008 by magnetman

[Nickhlx]

0.1 is ten times smaller than 1 so if there is 0.1 of something there is ten times less of it than if there was 1 of it.

 

 

 

I would agree with that.... and I would also think that 1 mg in 1 Kg is 1 ppm, so 0.1 mg in 1 Kg is 1 part in 10 million

 

( i.e. I think we agree )

 

Nick

[David]

Hi

Taken another look and the 0.1 figure is correct on the sheet for Gasoil so I am a bit baffled too as it seems better than the Ultra low sulpher Gasoil at ppm min- max50, I have not missed a decimal point out, and the sheets would appear not to either as they have decimal points for a couple of other spec's.

david

[Nickhlx]

Hi

Taken another look and the 0.1 figure is correct on the sheet for Gasoil so I am a bit baffled too as it seems better than the Ultra low sulpher Gasoil at ppm min- max50, I have not missed a decimal point out, and the sheets would appear not to either as they have decimal points for a couple of other spec's.

david

 

 

Praps they got also confused when they produced the spec sheet and the spec sheet is wrong ?

 

Nick