Buying a boat

[Gary Peacock]

The RCD doesn’t apply to second hand craft.

 

Not strictly true it applies to all pleasure craft when they are first ‘put on the market or put into service ‘ within the European Economic Union in a recreational use or are subject to a "major craft conversion" which means a conversion of a craft that alters the craft to such an extent that it is considered a new craft. (Workboat to recreational etc.)

 

From a re sale point of view after a boat has entered the market in the EU it doesn't reapply at that point. But from a liability point of view from the original builder it does.

 

The boat should never have legally entered the market place without a CIN number if it did the Declaration of Conformity was fraudulent.

 

The builder can't just wash their hands of it because it changes hands.

 

If customers didn't accept boats without compliance the builders wouldn't build them, but complying cost money and customers like to "save" it so they let the builders get away with it.

 

You know the RCD isn't any more challenging than the CE marking of everything else in Europe, it's just you wouldn't buy a kettle cheaply knowing it doesn't comply with the regulations and might zap you would you? But multiply the costs and dangers massively and MR & MRS Ditch-crawler will quite happily hand over the money gladly.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[riverbargeman]

Not strictly true it applies to all pleasure craft when they are first ‘put on the market or put into service ‘ within the European Economic Union in a recreational use or are subject to a "major craft conversion" which means a conversion of a craft that alters the craft to such an extent that it is considered a new craft. (Workboat to recreational etc.)

 

From a re sale point of view after a boat has entered the market in the EU it doesn't reapply at that point. But from a liability point of view from the original builder it does.

 

The boat should never have legally entered the market place without a CIN number if it did the Declaration of Conformity was fraudulent.

 

The builder can't just wash their hands of it because it changes hands.

 

If customers didn't accept boats without compliance the builders wouldn't buy them, but complying cost money and customers like to "save" it so they let the builders get away with it.

 

You know the RCD isn't any more challenging than the CE marking of everything else in Europe, it's just you wouldn't buy a kettle cheaply knowing it doesn't comply with the regulations and might zap you would you? But multiply the costs and dangers massively and MR & MRS Ditch-crawler will quite happily hand over the money gladly.

 

You are correct with regard to first PIS and POM and with regard to 'New' new and new to the leisure use, and again with regard to craft conversions such that they can be considered 'New' - the point being that none of them are second hand leisure vessels.

 

There is no requirement on any party to maintain a craft in accordance with RCD once the first transaction (or first operation - though that is a less clear cut area not yet tested by the courts) has been completed. BSS is often linked by some to the RCD but it is not a maintenance standard to RCD and is indeed substandard to RCD if the ISO's are correctly applied to the building of the craft. As such should he/she wish an owner may dispose of his owners manual, remove his builders plate and remove or deface the HIN/CIN. It is the case that the only mandatory ISO standard ( 10087) requires that the application of a HIN must be such that its removal is obvious, however if it is in raised or recessed letters they can be removed and the area faired, no offence has been committed. This is becoming more common with older craft which are being repainted some years on after first completion.

 

It is foolish to place great reliance on a one time only valid directive when looking at second hand vessels.

 

The electric kettle (TV, computer, clock radio, childs toy etc etc etc .....) when new comes with user instructions and a DOC as part of the requirement under the new approach directive applicable to it, but they are not necessarily available when the item is passed on to second (or more) owners. The same truth is permitted with craft.

 

My original point was that much 'advice' is being offered here from several quarters, who clearly either like to see their own name up in lights or are truly trying to assist, but without taking the time to gather a greater, suitable, understanding of this particular craft and its issues. That is not advice but misinformation.

 

The RCD has no comparison with DVLC, ringers or many of the other terms which have been used here to address it.

 

Deviation away from the crafts original configuration as detailed in its RCD documentation is not necessarily a lesser craft depending on the nature of the deviation or alteration.

 

My humble view remains that those with the questions would be better directed to those with the answers, and those with opinions - to seek clarification before offering them up as fact or inferred fact.

Edited March 3, 2008 by riverbargeman

[Chris J W]

My humble view remains that those with the questions would be better directed to those with the answers, and those with opinions - to seek clarification before offering them up as fact or inferred fact.

 

And what would lead you to believe that the members here don't have "the answers and facts"? Personally, I'd trust Gary on these subjects.

 

(Edit for typo)

Edited March 3, 2008 by Chris J W

[Nige G]

My humble view remains that those with the questions would be better directed to those with the answers

 

And your qualifications for being able to give us these facts are???

[bottle]

We are in the process of purchasing a boat, it was used as a hire boat the surveyor picked up that the CIN number is not marked on the transom and tthe current owner is refusing to pay to get it put on She is also refusing to get the safety work done that our surveyor pointed out I would be grateful of some advice before I hand over the money

 

 

I have a copy of the RCD document giving the CIN no but surveyor picked up it is not marked on the transom

 

If we go back to the original poster,

 

There is a RCD document but the boat is not marked, so how is anyone to know if it is the same boat.

 

There are faults with this boat (surveyor said so)

[riverbargeman]

And what would lead you to believe that the members here don't have "the answers and facts"? Personally, I'd trust Gary on these subjects.

 

(Edit for typo)

The statements speak for themselves on this issue. ‘Garry’ is indeed correct on most points he has made. It is their relevance to the issue of second hand craft and that the facts surrounding this particular craft in general where the implication of the facts is less valid.

[Gary Peacock]

The problem you have here is that the RCD is misunderstood builders don't like it, a lot of BSS examiners don't understand it and some surveyors use it to their advantage.

 

The ability to simply self declare conformity at Cat D is the RCD's main downfall and opportunity for wrong doing, if the use of notified bodies to give a level of outside verification was mandatory for all categories then at least at the point a new boat enters the market it might have more worth.

 

At the moment the other option is to employ the services of a surveyor to verify the construction techniques etc and compliance with the essential requirements during the build the downside of that from experience is that abilities of these marine "professionals" varies greatly some charge a fair price for an excellent job other charge a fortune and don't seem to have any in depth knowledge of what they are doing.

 

The RCD is the law of the land it offers a flawed level of protection maybe but it's all there is without getting out the cheque book for the services of a marine professional and hoping you have found a good one.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[Shamu1]

You should find some real advice from putting Recreational craft Directive into google.

 

I see that the towpath experts are telling you things without asking you any questions......very telling !

I have done that already and downloaded the RCD documents from RYA thanks for the reply

[marcus]

I have done that already and downloaded the RCD documents from RYA thanks for the reply

 

That river man seems to know his stuff, I'd go with him.

[Shamu1]

I thank everyone for their replies but did not wish to start world war 3 with this topic, I have taken in all everyone is saying and downloaded the directives and contacted the surveyor, the boat was built 2000 therefore should be marked by the builder or owner who first puts the boat on the water. This seller is refusing to pay the builder £50 to have it done therefore the surveyor will go back and ensure that the boat does comply without the RCD being correct they cannot sell it to anyone. so come on smile everyone

[Chris J W]

I thank everyone for their replies but did not wish to start world war 3 with this topic, I have taken in all everyone is saying and downloaded the directives and contacted the surveyor, the boat was built 2000 therefore should be marked by the builder or owner who first puts the boat on the water. This seller is refusing to pay the builder £50 to have it done therefore the surveyor will go back and ensure that the boat does comply without the RCD being correct they cannot sell it to anyone. so come on smile everyone

 

So are you walking away from this one, then?

 

(And I don't think you started WW-III ... that only happens when you mention batteries and power! )

[Mick_B]

So are you walking away from this one, then?

 

(And I don't think you started WW-III ... that only happens when you mention batteries and power! )

What about Lager

[Scotty]

That river man seems to know his stuff, I'd go with him.

You and your 'river man' friend both joined the forum yesterday, just for this thread ??

[denboy]

I thank everyone for their replies but did not wish to start world war 3 with this topic, I have taken in all everyone is saying and downloaded the directives and contacted the surveyor, the boat was built 2000 therefore should be marked by the builder or owner who first puts the boat on the water. This seller is refusing to pay the builder £50 to have it done therefore the surveyor will go back and ensure that the boat does comply without the RCD being correct they cannot sell it to anyone. so come on smile everyone

you may be in a better bargaining position regerding price now and get a reduction on the asking price worth a try

[Dominic M]

The RCD doesn’t apply to second hand craft.

 

I've dealt with many second hand craft. My understanding is that if the boat is less than five years old then it must have all the RCD paperwork in place and be fully compliant with the RCD. I've never met a surveyor who says otherwise either. Furthermore, if the boat was finished by a professional builder then the RCD is obligatory. The exception is where, for example, a private person buys a shell and fits it out for his or her own use, and does not sell it on within 5 years of completion. Even if the 5 year period has expired a surveyor would expect to see that a professional builder had complied with the RCD in the boat's construction, and that there should be a CIN, proper owner's manual etc., because if not then it was sold illegally in the firsty place. If the CIN is absent from the hull but has been issued then it may be stamped retrospectively - I've known that to happen on more than one occasion.

 

How old is the boat, was it professionally fitted out or done privately, and if the former, is there a full owner's manual?

 

Dominic

[Tomska]

You and your 'river man' friend both joined the forum yesterday, just for this thread ??

 

Yeah, I noticed that. Joined yesterday, first post is this one. Very smelly.

 

Presumably the seller or the broker...?

[bottle]

Dominic M

 

Thank you for confirming that which I alluded to in post #24

[Dominic M]

Dominic M

 

Thank you for confirming that which I alluded to in post #24

Hi Keith

 

I was thinking this through just in case I've been wrong about the RCD and second hand craft but it has to be the case. Otherwise the 5 year rule on self fit outs for own use, which is definitely the case, would be a nonsense. You or I could fit out a boat tomorrow and then sell it in 3 months time and it would be effectively a second hand boat. The only difference is that yours would probably sell and mine, given my lack of carpentry skills, would not!

 

Dominic

[bottle]

The only skill I have with wood is being able to set it alight.

[Lady Muck]

My boat was an owner fit out, under five years old and had no rcd for the whole craft, only for the hull. It was not CE marked. We bought with a marine mortgage, the sale was delayed for over a month until all the paperwork and marks were in order as the mortgage brokers would not lend until this had all been rectified.

 

I can totally understand why the mortgage brokers were so picky. It was pointed out to me by both the mortgage brokers and the owner of the website where the boat was advertised (not a broker,more a shop wndow) that the sale would be illegal if this was not sorted out.

 

I feel grateful to them for carefully checking ownership of the boat and everything else before we bought it, ok, marine mortgages are expensive but they really made us feel more confident that the vendor really did own the boat, the paperwork was in order and that the insistence on a survey meant we had a bit less of a chance of buying a bucket!

Edited March 4, 2008 by Lady Muck

[Gary Peacock]

The five year rule is there for a valid purpose if you choose to fit out a boat for your own use ,however should you sell it on later you would need to demonstrate in someway the date of completion to prove 5 years had elapsed.

 

Normally this is done in the form of some evidence (Photos and a declaration etc) held by a solicitor or posted to yourself or another by recorded delivery and remaining sealed.

 

If you are skipping the RCD this is well worth baring in mind.

Edited March 4, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[Dominic M]

My boat was an owner fit out, under five years old and had no rcd for the whole craft, only for the hull. It was not CE marked. We bought with a marine mortgage, the sale was delayed for over a month until all the paperwork and marks were in order as the mortgage brokers would not lend until this had all been rectified.

 

I can totally understand why the mortgage brokers were so picky. It was pointed out to me by both the mortgage brokers and the owner of the website where the boat was advertised (not a broker,more a shop wndow) that the sale would be illegal if this was not sorted out.

 

I feel grateful to them for carefully checking ownership of the boat and everything else before we bought it, ok, marine mortgages are expensive but they really made us feel more confident that the vendor really did own the boat, the paperwork was in order and that the insistence on a survey meant we had a bit less of a chance of buying a bucket!

Which is precisely what any broker worth his/her salt should do - a proper paper trail is so important, and checks to ensure that the boat is "free of encumbrances" when you take possession - i.e any mortgage has been repaid etc. There is no formal register of ownership and no formal system for "HP" checks as there is with a vehicle. I am amazed that many private sales of what is probably the second biggest purchase most people will ever make in their lives (presuming the first to be a property) take place with no such diligence, but they do. BW licence reminders and so forth are useless documents and no mortgage company will accept them as proof. Where a full history does not exist mortgage companies will often proceed but require the mortgagor to sign a waiver, which effectively states that if someone with a claim on the boat pops out of the woodwork you will still owe the money. But where a boat is required to have an RCD, as yours did, they will insist that that is in place. Just as they will insist that any material defects revealed by the survey are put right before the transaction is completed.

[Shamu1]

Not walking away got reduction in price that suits us we know what we need to have done but the current owner needs to get the paperwork in order its £50 to get builder to do it the boat was built 2000 so it has to be covered by RCD paperwork I have the CIN number its not marked on craft. I cannot pay to get it done as not the owner.

[Gary Peacock]

Not walking away got reduction in price that suits us we know what we need to have done but the current owner needs to get the paperwork in order its £50 to get builder to do it the boat was built 2000 so it has to be covered by RCD paperwork I have the CIN number its not marked on craft. I cannot pay to get it done as not the owner.

 

That sounds like a good result all around.

 

There would have been absolutely no point in inheriting somebody else's errors.

 

The RCD is always a contentious subject and the general lack of enforcement along with the boat buildings industries enthusiasm for ways to work around it don't help.

 

I think a lot of potential owners lack of knowledge and interest in the subject go a long way to creating a lot of the pitfalls that can arise later.

[riverbargeman]

Not walking away got reduction in price that suits us we know what we need to have done but the current owner needs to get the paperwork in order its £50 to get builder to do it the boat was built 2000 so it has to be covered by RCD paperwork I have the CIN number its not marked on craft. I cannot pay to get it done as not the owner.

 

Is the vendor the builder?