Challenger Syndicates (In Liquidation)

[tomsk]

He's called Rimmer, which should have been an instant wake-up call.... That is all

[carlt]

He's called Rimmer, which should have been an instant wake-up call.... That is all

Could have been worse, he could have been called "Cat".

[tomsk]

Could have been worse, he could have been called "Cat".

 

At least the Cat has groovy clothes and knows what time it is, unlike Rimmer, who is an all round arse.

[Gary Peacock]

A bit of here from BOATING BUSINESS that might be of interest.

 

David Wilson at Begbies Traynor was appointed joint administrator of the partnership, E & J Rimmer trading as Challenger Syndicateships, on Thursday January 10, 2008 and joint administrator of Challenger Syndicateships Ltd on Friday January 11, 2008.

 

And this set off a chain reaction that has reverberated around the industry and its customers. This one will, as they say, run and run, as some very strong accusations are thrown around on various websites.

 

The British Marine Federation (BMF), once alerted to the situation made immediate arrangements to identify a solicitor people can talk to if they have complaints regarding Challenger Syndicateships.

 

The solicitor concerned is Russell Kelly at Lester Aldridge; telephone 023 8082 7416, email Russell.kelly@LA-Law.com

 

In addition, the BMF and the Association of Pleasure Craft Operators (APCO) took action to ensure that anyone who had booked a holiday with Challenger Syndicateships was offered another holiday by other member companies.

 

However, the problems of those caught up in the mess surrounding who owns what boat will not be sorted as quickly and easily.

 

 

BB has tried to contact Ed Rimmer without success, so we can't give you his side of the story. But we have spoken to some who have stories that seem incredible, if only for the astonishing childlike trust they put in a person to whom they hand over nearly £100,000 without seeing (or receiving) definitive proof of title of a boat.

 

One broker, who has been repossessing boats for various finance houses, suggested the BMF’s Boatmark scheme – almost universally ignored by the industry - would have solved many of the problems by providing instant title provenance to any would-be purchaser.

 

Another aspect of this debacle, as Lady Bracknell might have remarked upon, is that to lose one BMF high ranking non-exec may be a misfortune, but to lose another within the space of five months looks like carelessness.

 

And that is unlikely to instil in the general public a nice warm glow of confidence in this industry.

 

BB will bring you more when we can report with confidence the many stories floating around that have yet to be confirmed as fact .

Edited January 22, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[tomsk]

A bit of here from BOATING BUSINESS that might be of interest.

 

David Wilson at Begbies Traynor was appointed joint administrator of the partnership, E & J Rimmer trading as Challenger Syndicateships, on Thursday January 10, 2008 and joint administrator of Challenger Syndicateships Ltd on Friday January 11, 2008.

 

And this set off a chain reaction that has reverberated around the industry and its customers. This one will, as they say, run and run, as some very strong accusations are thrown around on various websites.

 

The British Marine Federation (BMF), once alerted to the situation made immediate arrangements to identify a solicitor people can talk to if they have complaints regarding Challenger Syndicateships.

 

The solicitor concerned is Russell Kelly at Lester Aldridge; telephone 023 8082 7416, email Russell.kelly@LA-Law.com

 

In addition, the BMF and the Association of Pleasure Craft Operators (APCO) took action to ensure that anyone who had booked a holiday with Challenger Syndicateships was offered another holiday by other member companies.

 

However, the problems of those caught up in the mess surrounding who owns what boat will not be sorted as quickly and easily.

BB has tried to contact Ed Rimmer without success, so we can't give you his side of the story. But we have spoken to some who have stories that seem incredible, if only for the astonishing childlike trust they put in a person to whom they hand over nearly £100,000 without seeing (or receiving) definitive proof of title of a boat.

 

One broker, who has been repossessing boats for various finance houses, suggested the BMF’s Boatmark scheme – almost universally ignored by the industry - would have solved many of the problems by providing instant title provenance to any would-be purchaser.

 

Another aspect of this debacle, as Lady Bracknell might have remarked upon, is that to lose one BMF high ranking non-exec may be a misfortune, but to lose another within the space of five months looks like carelessness.

 

And that is unlikely to instil in the general public a nice warm glow of confidence in this industry.

 

BB will bring you more when we can report with confidence the many stories floating around that have yet to be confirmed as fact .

 

Just about sums the situation up. The stoopid leading the foolish, guiding the blind. Some might comment 'Rimmer by name, Rimmer by nature', but probably only those stoopid enough to hand over their hard earned with no paperwork in return.

[NB Alnwick]

This episode does raise an interesting point - how can any of us actually prove ownership of our boats?

 

In the unlikely (but feasible) event of a boat being stolen and then sold to a third party who decides to live on the boat, it would be quite difficult to prove ownership and regain possession.

 

It might be useful if we had some form of national registry of boat ownership - or does such a thing already exist?

[Keeping Up]

This episode does raise an interesting point - how can any of us actually prove ownership of our boats?

 

In the unlikely (but feasible) event of a boat being stolen and then sold to a third party who decides to live on the boat, it would be quite difficult to prove ownership and regain possession.

 

It might be useful if we had some form of national registry of boat ownership - or does such a thing already exist?

There used to be such a scheme, called "BoatSafe" but I don't know what happened to it. I can't trace it now.

 

When Keeping Up was built, a microchip transponder (rather like a dog's chip, but with a greater range) was embedded into the structural woodwork in a location which is known only to myself, and which could only be discoverd by completely dismantling the boat. The details of this chip were logged on the BoatSafe register together with my name & address, etc. I still have my copy of the registration form so, even if the register no longer exists, I could demonstrate my ownership of the boat by locating the microchip and proving its serial number.

 

Just using a standard dog-type chip, and having a record of its number before visiting the suspect boat, could be quite effective at proving ownership.

[tomsk]

This episode does raise an interesting point - how can any of us actually prove ownership of our boats?

 

In the unlikely (but feasible) event of a boat being stolen and then sold to a third party who decides to live on the boat, it would be quite difficult to prove ownership and regain possession.

 

It might be useful if we had some form of national registry of boat ownership - or does such a thing already exist?

 

A dated Bill of Sale usually does the trick.

[Kamper]

A dated Bill of Sale usually does the trick.

 

 

I'm not entirely convinced that a bill of sale does do the trick, anyone can create false bill of sale, the RYA and the small ships register websites will even provide you with an official looking template, but thats all they are, meaningless bits of paper, easily falsified, and almost impossible to verify.

 

Until there's a compulsory registration scheme, these sorts of abuses will continue to occur.

[Gary Peacock]

I'm not entirely convinced that a bill of sale does do the trick, anyone can create false bill of sale, the RYA and the small ships register websites will even provide you with an official looking template, but thats all they are, meaningless bits of paper, easily falsified, and almost impossible to verify.

 

Until there's a compulsory registration scheme, these sorts of abuses will continue to occur.

 

Unfortunately in the UK proof of ownership is hard to prove. However all new "Production" craft now legally having to be marked with a CIN which is the equivalent of a VIN on a car. It is theoretically possible therefore to identify individual boats and their keepers if such system was put into place. In the US boat ownership and sales are administered in much the way that vehicles are.

Edited January 26, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[dor]

When the base plate of my boat was laid down, the hull Identification number was welded onto it, at my insistence, in a position that would be in the engine compartment. I took photos of it at that point and subsequently as the boat was built up. My main aim in this was to prove ownership of the steel if the builder went bust, as the HIN was recorded on any invoice I paid. I think this would help to prove ownership, but the HIN was also recorded on the Annexe III that I received on completion of the hull which was used to get the first BW licence. Therefore BW have a record that this boat is mine and I've been paying the licence on it.

[Gary Peacock]

Latest news on Boating Business HERE.

Edited February 12, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[carlt]

I see they're still advertising their Med boats in PBO and Yachting Monthly.

 

Buyer Beware! Seems appropriate atm.

[Qhunter]

I am so glad about this - it means, I hope that the nasty, stuck up pr**ks that compose the owners Stealth 'bomber' fleet will no longer be around to tow water skiers up and down the cut!!.

 

Generalisation like this just makes me realise that the canals are being inhabited by an increasing number of Victor Meldrew types who demonstrate a distasteful level of bigotry based on what...the peception of their own wealth, class, superiority, who knows.

 

I have been boating since 1980 since I left school and started working on the Trent/Humber/Ouse gravel barges. We have taken our holidays on the canals for years and have elected to hire rather than buy because we want to buy the right boat outright rather than have to make a compromise based on available finances. We discovered the Challenger Stealth Hire 'bomber fleet' about 5yrs ago and have used them without problem since then. Just where else were you going to hire a Hudson tug for £700/week? During this period, and all our times boating we have never attracted a single complaint regarding our conduct on the canals. In fact, as a result of my grounding in professional boat handling i've often been asked 'where did you learn to do that" We have though, encountered an astonishing level of snobbery from boat owners with the opinon, that somehow because I'm on the tiller of a hire boat it means I don't know what I'm doing with a boat, that I don't care for the canals and the heritage they represent, and that I think everyone is a potential enemy until proved otherwise and that I am to be treated as a member of an undefined underclass. I would argue that the people who adopt these attitudes to hire boaters as a breed are the ones who are dwelling in the underclass. On the other hand, there are those boat owners who don't have a psuedo class based axe to grind and those people are a pleasure to be with and they are the people who make our holidays a real pleasure.

 

As the Challenger mess unfolds it is becoming obvious that a lot of people have seen their dreams and their life's saving vanish to who knows where. I feel for these people and wish them the very best in their endeavours at seeking recompense.

Edited February 12, 2008 by Qhunter

[carlt]

Hi Qhunter (how easy is that, btw? aren't Q's omniscient?) you'll have to excuse PB, coming from darkest Peru he has led a sheltered life. He didn't even realise that the Stealth fleet were hire boats (they may have been travelling too fast for him to read "Stealth hire fleet" on the side).

 

Welcome to the forum btw, not all of us hate the stealth hirers (some of us hate everybody).

 

[turnbuttonboy]

Generalisation like this just makes me realise that the canals are being inhabited by an increasing number of Victor Meldrew types who demonstrate a distasteful level of bigotry based on what...the peception of their own wealth, class, superiority, who knows.

 

I have been boating since 1980 since I left school and started working on the Trent/Humber/Ouse gravel barges. We have taken our holidays on the canals for years and have elected to hire rather than buy because we want to buy the right boat outright rather than have to make a compromise based on available finances. We discovered the Challenger Stealth Hire 'bomber fleet' about 5yrs ago and have used them without problem since then. Just where else were you going to hire a Hudson tug for £700/week? During this period, and all our times boating we have never attracted a single complaint regarding our conduct on the canals. In fact, as a result of my grounding in professional boat handling i've often been asked 'where did you learn to do that" We have though, encountered an astonishing level of snobbery from boat owners with the opinon, that somehow because I'm on the tiller of a hire boat it means I don't know what I'm doing with a boat, that I don't care for the canals and the heritage they represent, and that I think everyone is a potential enemy until proved otherwise and that I am to be treated as a member of an undefined underclass. I would argue that the people who adopt these attitudes to hire boaters as a breed are the ones who are dwelling in the underclass. On the other hand, there are those boat owners who don't have a psuedo class based axe to grind and those people are a pleasure to be with and they are the people who make our holidays a real pleasure.

 

As the Challenger mess unfolds it is becoming obvious that a lot of people have seen their dreams and their life's saving vanish to who knows where. I feel for these people and wish them the very best in their endeavours at seeking recompense.

 

Horrified by opinions expressed in this thread? Just be glad that you are not a relative of one of the boaters drowned outside Whitby harbour recently - the opinions expressed there had me on the verge of quitting.

 

You are spot on about the attitude, snobbishness and ignorance of some boaters; there were always a few but now there are many. We hung on to a lovely but old narrowboat for years in order to buy a barge shell and watched with interest and amusement at the way that people changed in their approach to us; you will see the same change when you get your 'right boat'. It seems to be the way of the canals at the moment and was one of the reasons that we were glad to get off the busier narrow canals in the heart of the country. If I ever do them again it will probably be as a hirer which will be interesting.

 

Welcome to the Forum,

 

to see the other side of our members (often the same members ) http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12785

 

Giles

(to see the best of the forum

[carlt]

Horrified by opinions expressed in this thread? Just be glad that you are not a relative of one of the boaters drowned outside Whitby harbour recently - the opinions expressed there had me on the verge of quitting.

We're going off topic but there's a bit of difference in snobbery and generalisation; and the criticism of people who commit an act of stupidity that puts other people's lives in danger.

 

On the 19th December 1981 the Union Star stupidly refused assistance from a tug because the captain wouldn't accept a Lloyds open form salvage contract.

 

This led to the launching of the lifeboat Solomon Browne.

 

One act of stupidity caused the Penlee lifeboat disaster, that night.

 

The act of stupidity of the skipper of The Last Call could have cost the lives of another lifeboat crew and that, in my opinion, leaves him open to criticism.

 

Rant over, back to topic.

Edited February 13, 2008 by carlt

[PaddingtonBear]

Sorry to have caused such offence, esp. to Qhunter, I don't hate anyone, I am in no position to and if truth be told I am a pretty useless boater to boot

[howardang]

We're going off topic but there's a bit of difference in snobbery and generalisation; and the criticism of people who commit an act of stupidity that puts other people's lives in danger.

 

On the 19th December 1981 the Union Star stupidly refused assistance from a tug because the captain wouldn't accept a Lloyds open form salvage contract.

 

This led to the launching of the lifeboat Solomon Browne.

 

One act of stupidity caused the Penlee lifeboat disaster, that night.

 

The act of stupidity of the skipper of The Last Call could have cost the lives of another lifeboat crew and that, in my opinion, leaves him open to criticism.

 

Rant over, back to topic.

Well said, Carl - I agree completely.

 

Howard

[turnbuttonboy]

We're going off topic but there's a bit of difference in snobbery and generalisation; and the criticism of people who commit an act of stupidity that puts other people's lives in danger.

 

On the 19th December 1981 the Union Star stupidly refused assistance from a tug because the captain wouldn't accept a Lloyds open form salvage contract.

 

This led to the launching of the lifeboat Solomon Browne.

 

One act of stupidity caused the Penlee lifeboat disaster, that night.

 

The act of stupidity of the skipper of The Last Call could have cost the lives of another lifeboat crew and that, in my opinion, leaves him open to criticism.

 

Rant over, back to topic.

 

I am not defending the Whitby boaters actions - it was a stupid and naive thing to do but we all make mistakes - it was the absence of any compassion in some ot the comments that I found so unedifying.

 

Giles.

[Qhunter]

Hi Qhunter (how easy is that, btw? aren't Q's omniscient?)

I never thought of it like that It is the shortened version of Queue Hunter, a nickname I acquired from my road haulage days and a bad day at Heathrow's freight terminal.

 

 

You are spot on about the attitude, snobbishness and ignorance of some boaters; there were always a few but now there are many. We hung on to a lovely but old narrowboat for years in order to buy a barge shell and watched with interest and amusement at the way that people changed in their approach to us; you will see the same change when you get your 'right boat'. It seems to be the way of the canals at the moment and was one of the reasons that we were glad to get off the busier narrow canals in the heart of the country. If I ever do them again it will probably be as a hirer which will be interesting.

 

Down the years we have usually hired from companies who offer genuinely high quality boats rather than the 'dog boxes' of the larger fleets although when the desire to see a particualr part of the country has over ridden the need for quality we have done those too. The attitudes of some people can astonishing. They see a dog box and you are immediately a numpty to be treated with contempt (I could write a book about some of the tricks that have been tried on us, I assume simply because we'd been identified as hireboaters). On decent quality boats though the attitude changes and what was amazing about Spirit Of Georgia (the Challenger Stealth tug) was that most people didn't realise it was a hire boat but saw a Hudson tug and the fawning did sometimes get embarrassing! Even more fascinating was the change in some people once they'd seen the words 'stealth hire' - whatever that meant!

 

 

to see the other side of our members (often the same members ) http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12785

 

Giles (to see the best of the forum)

 

I read that thread from end to end. In our world of road rage, stabbings and general hostility it was very humbling to discover that actually, there still are first class decent people out there if you know where to look. It was vey heartwarming.

 

 

On the 19th December 1981 the Union Star stupidly refused assistance from a tug because the captain wouldn't accept a Lloyds open form salvage contract.

 

This led to the launching of the lifeboat Solomon Browne.

 

One act of stupidity caused the Penlee lifeboat disaster, that night.

 

There were other lives lost that night too that I personally attribute to the decisions of the Union Star ( a brand new ship with a fault that would have resulted in the salvage bill been placed at the feet of the builders afterwards - sorry, rant mode again) not accepting the salvage offer. Further out at sea was a British coaster that got into trouble and sank with loss of life in the same rough weather. The Penlee boat was unable to help that ship as they were busy sacrificing themselves at Penlee.

[howardang]

-There were other lives lost that night too that I personally attribute to the decisions of the Union Star ( a brand new ship with a fault that would have resulted in the salvage bill been placed at the feet of the builders afterwards - sorry, rant mode again) not accepting the salvage offer. Further out at sea was a British coaster that got into trouble and sank with loss of life in the same rough weather. The Penlee boat was unable to help that ship as they were busy sacrificing themselves at Penlee.

 

Unfortunately the decision not to accept services under a Lloyds form was almost certainly a basic misunderstanding of how the Lloyds form works - a misconception perpetuated by the press to this day.

 

Howard Anguish

Edited February 13, 2008 by howardang

[Dalesman]

A dated Bill of Sale usually does the trick.

You can register your boat as a BRITISH ship, will cost you though, but at the end of the day may well be worth it.

[carlt]

You can register your boat as a BRITISH ship, will cost you though, but at the end of the day may well be worth it.

 

£124 for 5 years