Alternator wiring diagram

[moggyjo]

This suggestion is an attempt to apply a sort of flint axe discharge test to the batteries individually to see if any of them are still ok. One reading lower than the rest would point a finger at that battery, but since they have spent their lives connected they are unlikely to differ by much. All reading the same means they are all equal, and that could be equally knackered as well as equally good.

I would be careful with this, the undefinable extra input to any test of experience is absent here, and I for one would not like to make too much of this without an alternator output graph and knowledge of the alternator shaft speed during test. I really suspect BIG TIME that the batteries are an ex parrot. Any chance of borrowing some to test? Even one would do.

Everyone down here is at work, I was discussing with my neighbour last night about trying other batteries but what a hassle is there no other way? I see what you say about the hydromiter testing, they all read the same with the amp meter whatever it is, is it worth paying someone to come round if the result is duff batteries?

[moggyjo]

Just looking at another thread, does it mean anything that the drive belt on my engine is only just over a 1/4 inch wide, would that make any difference?

[Sir Nibble]

Just looking at another thread, does it mean anything that the drive belt on my engine is only just over a 1/4 inch wide, would that make any difference?

That will no way reliably drive a 100A alternator, but the voltages you quote still suggest dud batteries which are not loading the alternator, so whilst this is a big issue, it is not hugely relevant to the battery problem. The alternator is driving the battery terminal voltage up to a good level, ergo such belt slip as may occur is not currently the issue. You will have to engineer that to take twin belts tho'.

[moggyjo]

That will no way reliably drive a 100A alternator, but the voltages you quote still suggest dud batteries which are not loading the alternator, so whilst this is a big issue, it is not hugely relevant to the battery problem. The alternator is driving the battery terminal voltage up to a good level, ergo such belt slip as may occur is not currently the issue. You will have to engineer that to take twin belts tho'.

So at the end of the day do you think it would be a good idea to get the man in and pay him loads a money!

One other thought could there be a short circut between the batteries and appliances in the boat causing the problem.

[Sir Nibble]

So at the end of the day do you think it would be a good idea to get the man in and pay him loads a money!

One other thought could there be a short circut between the batteries and appliances in the boat causing the problem.

Short circuit usually equals blown fuse or fire.

To recap:

You need a higher wattage warning lamp to get the alternator to cut in.

You need to arrange either a twin vee belt or poly-vee belt drive if you are to take advantage of your larger alternator's performance.

The charging performance is limited by severe loss of battery capacity, probably due to sulphation.

 

Now it is dreadfully difficult to be 100% sure about all this at a distance, but I am sure that you need to sort out that drive, that MAY cost a few bob depending. Get onto your engine dealer and see if a twin belt crankshaft pulley is available. Change the warning light, you may need a different lampholder, what is the wattage of the bulb currently fitted? It looks pretty certain you need batteries, but given the expense, get someone in to confirm that on the spot.

I am usually suspicious of anyone quoting more than one fault at a time, but the sulphated batteries are a natural result of the charging deficiencies that prompted you to uprate the alternator in the first place, and the bulb and drive are simply bits of that upgrade that you've not done yet.

 

If you

get the man in and pay him loads a money!

he is not going to read through pages of an internet forum full of advice from a bloke who thinks he's a hamster! he will start from scratch. From my experience of waterway based mechanics, I would be wary. Get the batteries checked and let's go from there. I admire your patience.

[smileypete]

Everyone down here is at work, I was discussing with my neighbour last night about trying other batteries but what a hassle is there no other way? I see what you say about the hydromiter testing, they all read the same with the amp meter whatever it is, is it worth paying someone to come round if the result is duff batteries?

 

I reckon there's enough info to make a reasonable assumption the batteries are kaput in some way.

 

If you could spend £5 and an hour of your time learning to use a hydrometer that would be fantastic, and a very useful skill to have for the future.

 

If/when you get new batteries the next thing to look at is that they're getting charged properly and are sufficient for your daily needs.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited January 15, 2008 by smileypete

[Chris Pink]

The batteries are about a year old 3x1000ah

 

I kinda figure this is a mistake (your post #67) , and i deduce that everyone else thinks so too. But just thought i'd check.

[Sir Nibble]

I kinda figure this is a mistake (your post #67) , and i deduce that everyone else thinks so too. But just thought i'd check.

HA! Yes I see what you mean. I hadn't noticed, I read it as 100Ah.

[moggyjo]

HA! Yes I see what you mean. I hadn't noticed, I read it as 100Ah.

Yes so did I

I reckon there's enough info to make a reasonable assumption the batteries are kaput in some way.If you could spend £5 and an hour of your time learning to use a hydrometer that would be fantastic, and a very useful skill to have for the future.If/when you get new batteries the next thing to look at is that they're getting charged properly and are sufficient for your daily needs.cheers,Pete.

Hi Pete, I have got a Hydromiter and know how to use it, the batteries are sealed, weather I can get the lid off with a screwdriver or not I don't know but what I don't understand is, what will it mean if all the cells read the same are they either good or bad, how do you tell?

[Chris Pink]

I can get the lid off with a screwdriver or not I don't know but what I don't understand is, what will it mean if all the cells read the same are they either good or bad, how do you tell?

 

 

Should be possible to lever the lids off, they're usually joined by a tidgy bit of plastic. The reading will then tell you a couple of things, first if one or more of the readings is lower than the rest you have a duff cell (12V battery = 6 cells @ 2V), the second, slightly more complicated is that the reading on the hydrometer should match the state of charge indicated by the volts reading. If the volts reading indicates that the state of charge is higher than the reading on the hydrometer, chances are the batteries are sulphated ('furred up' as you put it) and won't hold as much charge as they should.

 

The hydrometer is a more reliable indication of the state of charge of the batteries.

[chris w]

Yes so did I :wub:Hi Pete, I have got a Hydromiter and know how to use it, the batteries are sealed, weather I can get the lid off with a screwdriver or not I don't know but what I don't understand is, what will it mean if all the cells read the same are they either good or bad, how do you tell?

 

 

STOP!!!!!

 

If the batteries are the "sealed" type you CANNOT test them with a hydrometer because the electrolyte is in gel form, not in liquid form. Do NOT prise them open if they are indeed this type.

 

Chris

Edited January 16, 2008 by chris w

[Sir Nibble]

Yes so did I :wub:Hi Pete, I have got a Hydromiter and know how to use it, the batteries are sealed, weather I can get the lid off with a screwdriver or not I don't know but what I don't understand is, what will it mean if all the cells read the same are they either good or bad, how do you tell?

A hydrometer reads the relative density of the electrolyte, (relative to distilled water) and thus indicates the extent to which the chemical conversions have taken place as the battery is charged. If you cannot get the reading to show you full charge it is because the chemical conversion is incomplete.

the sulphur in the sulphuric acid electrolyte combines with the lead in the plates to form a coating of lead sulphate which "masks" the sulphated area from the electro chemical action and thereby the battery looses capacity.

So if you find that despite long charging you cannot raise the hydrometer reading above half charge it is because half the plate area is sulphated up and you effectively have 3X50Ah batteries. Most "sealed" batteries can in fact be opened, you may gain access by peeling off the sticker on top, if they can't then the little indicator at the top is the best you can go on.

[Chris Pink]

If the batteries are the "sealed" type you CANNOT test them with a hydrometer because the electrolyte is in gel form, not in liquid form. Do NOT prise them open if they are indeed this type.

 

Chris

 

There is a difference between 'maintenance free' and gel type batteries. I understood it had been established they were the former otherwise the advice to purchase a hydrometer is incorrect.

 

Time to establish what kind of batteries, manufacturer and model number please Jo.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Chris Pink

[moggyjo]

Should be possible to lever the lids off, they're usually joined by a tidgy bit of plastic. The reading will then tell you a couple of things, first if one or more of the readings is lower than the rest you have a duff cell (12V battery = 6 cells @ 2V), the second, slightly more complicated is that the reading on the hydrometer should match the state of charge indicated by the volts reading. If the volts reading indicates that the state of charge is higher than the reading on the hydrometer, chances are the batteries are sulphated ('furred up' as you put it) and won't hold as much charge as they should.

 

The hydrometer is a more reliable indication of the state of charge of the batteries.

Just tried to lever off the lid, can't get it off so will have t wait for someone that can lift the batteries out of the battery compartment, my back is not the best at the moment.

[Sir Nibble]

STOP!!!!!

 

If the batteries are the "sealed" type you CANNOT test them with a hydrometer because the electrolyte is in gel form, not in liquid form. Do NOT prise them open if they are indeed this type.

 

Chris

Dunnit a million times, if you can take the top off, take it off, if there is liquid in there, test it.

[KenK]

STOP!!!!!

 

If the batteries are the "sealed" type you CANNOT test them with a hydrometer because the electrolyte is in gel form, not in liquid form. Do NOT prise them open if they are indeed this type.

 

Chris

 

They may not be gel batteries mine were described as Low Maintenance Sealed batteries but in fact the seal was simply a strip of tape over the removable screw in plugs. They are in fact normal wet cell batteries. But Chris is right find out what they are before you damage them.

 

SG is temperature dependant if I remember my schoolboy chemistry but a fully charged cell from memory should be around 1.27 and discharged 1.12.

 

Ken

[Sir Nibble]

They may not be gel batteries mine were described as Low Maintenance Sealed batteries but in fact the seal was simply a strip of tape over the removable screw in plugs. They are in fact normal wet cell batteries. But Chris is right find out what they are before you damage them.

 

SG is temperature dependant if I remember my schoolboy chemistry but a fully charged cell from memory should be around 1.27 and discharged 1.12.

Ken

'Bout right, the point is less the actual reading than the inability to get it to top out.

[moggyjo]

[moggyjo]

Numax CXV27MF

(XV27MF)

Sealed Leisure Battery

12V 105Ah 900MCA

 

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■ Dual terminals

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The range of five totally maintenance-free batteries is built to full USA specification and is also the perfect partner for solar panel installations.

[Chris Pink]

Numax CXV27MF

(XV27MF)

Sealed Leisure Battery

12V 105Ah 900MCA

 

Don't know this model personally ( i don't go to the right parties) but it is a wet lead acid, ie, if you can get the top off you can test it with the hydrometer.

 

If they're a year old then that is an expensive fall if they've had it.

 

The vent covers might be under the labels, someone who knows these batteries will pop-up hopefully with that information.

 

Would suggest getting them out, borrowing a make-do battery for the boat, putting them on charge on a multi-stage charger with mains electricity and then testing them (still out of the boat) by putting a light on them and seeing how they fare. If they fail this test they are sulphated but you will probably save them with an equalising charge (needs a specialist battery charger which might be the same one).

 

All this sounds expensive but is probably not (you're in the Oxford area, no? there must be someone helpful around with the kit to do this) more hassle than anything else.

 

Don't scrap them yet!!!

[Sir Nibble]

From the pictures, I do not believe you will open those. I may be wrong, but I believe I can see the little indicator showing green. That would suggest that the batteries are well charged, yet the performance gives the lie to that. (unless it's an old photo).

[Chris Pink]

From the pictures, I do not believe you will open those. I may be wrong, but I believe I can see the little indicator showing green. That would suggest that the batteries are well charged, yet the performance gives the lie to that. (unless it's an old photo).

 

Which takes us right round right round to page 1 again. Gosh a knobbly knutty little problem. I shall re-read the thread for the top this evening

 

do you know these batteries, Snibble? I am wondering about the tab on the left (and right) of the front portion in the picture. Looks like it might be a lift-up bit.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Chris Pink

[KenK]

Which takes us right round right round to page 1 again. Gosh a knobbly knutty little problem. I shall re-read the thread for the top this evening

 

do you know these batteries, Snibble? I am wondering about the tab on the left (and right) of the front portion in the picture. Looks like it might be a lift-up bit.

 

Mine are also Numax but not the same model, they have that tab on the side its an overflow on mine each cell is connected just below the plug to allow gas / liquid to escape. Mine also had the tape on the top and the plugs were underneath, worth a look.

 

Ken

[smileypete]

 

 

I'd make a reasonable assumption they're kaput, or not far off.

 

It's possible find the remaining capacity by charging to 100%, then do an approx discharge test with 12v bulb and ammeter. Bit of a hassle though.

 

BTW these 'maintenace free' wet batteries have more in common with a car battery, they'll have a relatively poor cycle life and will get killed very quickly if run flat. Which tends to confirm the above.

 

If you still have the receipt you just might be able to wangle a replacement under the 2 year guarantee, or a credit against something better if you're really lucky.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited January 16, 2008 by smileypete

[NBMike]

Sorry Moggyjo, I can't help in any way but I think I know where to come for help when I need it. Those other guys are great.