A broad view of canal boat licence fees (The other side)

[Paul C]

38 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

By implying that they might not have to follow the rules CCers have to follow. 

 

 

No, that's not an answer, that's a re-statement of the question - by implication (and interpretation of the colloquial terms), "CMing" IS "not following the rules CCers have to follow".

 

I am asking - what's the INCENTIVE to do so, for a home moorer specifically?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

No, that's not an answer, that's a re-statement of the question - by implication (and interpretation of the colloquial terms), "CMing" IS "not following the rules CCers have to follow".

 

I am asking - what's the INCENTIVE to do so, for a home moorer specifically?

 

 

You won't get a sensible answer at that nice Mr Higgs doesn't really understand the issues. 

 

 

[Higgs]

5 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I am asking - what's the INCENTIVE to do so, for a home moorer specifically?

 

Happy to accept that home moorers are subjected to the same code as CCers. Or, are you happy to accept that home moorers are no different to CCers, when out on the cut?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27 by Higgs

[dmr]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

As a matter of law that is incorrect. Under the 95 Act, those without a home mooring are required to not remain in any place for more than 14 days (or such longer period...). There is no such constraint under the Act for those with a home mooring. However CRT (and BW before them) have sought to impose a similar requirement on those with a home mooring through their terms and conditions. The enforceability of this requirement has been questioned here, but as far as I am aware has never been tested in court, so it's a moot point as to whether a home moorer can legally stay longer than 14 days in one place.

 

The late and very well informed Nigel Moore did have a slightly diferent interpretation of this.

CC'ers are not required to move every 14 days (as you have suggested), but are allowed to stay in one place for up to 14 days (or longer in reasonable circumstances). So the subtle difference is that the 14 day rule is not specifying something that you must not do, but something that you are allowed to do.

The inference is that Home moorers do NOT have permission to stay anywhere for up to 14 days (except on the home mooring).

 

I think I remember that CRT did not say that any interpretation of the 14 day rule actually applies to home moorers, they said that they "request" that home moorers obey the same conditions as CCers when out boating.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Higgs said:

....are you happy to accept that home moorers are no different to CCers, when out on the cut?

 

 

No, absolutely not the same :

 

CCers have the legal right to moor for (up to) 14 days .HMers do not have such a right.

CCers must move to a new place -maybe a parish, or a country etc.  a HMer can move 100 yards and be in a new place.

[Higgs]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No, absolutely not the same :

 

CCers have the legal right to moor for (up to) 14 days .HMers do not have such a right.

CCers must move to a new place -maybe a parish, or a country etc.  a HMer can move 100 yards and be in a new place.

 

At what interval? Over night.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27 by Higgs

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

At what interval?

 

 

It is not stated anywhere in any of the Acts.

It is 'permissive' that they may stay 14 days max, but, it could also be enforced, at 24 hours if C&RT wished.

It is dependent on the whim of the navigation authority.

Edited April 27 by Alan de Enfield

[Arthur Marshall]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No, absolutely not the same :

 

CCers have the legal right to moor for (up to) 14 days .HMers do not have such a right.

CCers must move to a new place -maybe a parish, or a country etc.  a HMer can move 100 yards and be in a new place.

Except under the revised T&Cs, CRT have made the cruising rules the same. Whether it would stand up in court we will never know. Not that it matters, as anyone with a home mooring out on a cruise is only interested in covering a bit of ground, not sitting under a tree for weeks.

[Paul C]

14 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Happy to accept that home moorers are subjected to the same code as CCers. Or, are you happy to accept that home moorers are no different to CCers, when out on the cut?

 

 

 

 

What is "code"? Specifically, can you use the proper phraseology, if you mean one of the following:

 

1) Legislation

2) Byelaws

3) Terms and conditions of a boating licence

4) CRT Boater's Handbook (please say which section you are referring to)

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Except under the revised T&Cs, CRT have made the cruising rules the same.

 

Indeed they have, but only the T&Cs that are lawful can be applied, C&RT can request compliance with other T&Cs but at the end of the day C&RT do not any authority to write new laws'.

 

Again - Nigel Moores take on the subject :

 

 

Legality OF C&RT’s T&C’s

 

It should be clarified that much of the T&C's are a repeat of, or reference to, byelaw provisions, and enforceable in law by the method prescribed (not by unlawfully making them a contractual condition for issue of the licence). Those cannot be said to be foisted upon us via the T&C's, justly or unjustly.

 

Others are sensible guidelines without the force of law, which boaters would do well to adhere to. But yes, certain other morally and legally objectionable ones do purport to dispense with statutory protections – and consent to share one's personal information where that would conflict with the current law would be amongst them, as would the grant of permission to board boats regardless of the statutory constraints of the 1983 Act, as would also be the case with agreeing to pay the costs of CaRT moving your boat off from where it was obstructing (BW fought and lost at least one case in which they alleged such a right to charge for doing so).

 

 

Nigel Moore 2/3/19

Edited April 27 by Alan de Enfield

[Higgs]

Just now, Paul C said:

What is "code"? Specifically, can you use the proper phraseology, if you mean one of the following:

 

1) Legislation

2) Byelaws

3) Terms and conditions of a boating licence

4) CRT Boater's Handbook (please say which section you are referring to)

 

 

No CMing. And, knowing that a permanent mooring is what a home moorer pays for. It offers no discounting on use of the canal.

 

 

[Paul C]

Just now, Higgs said:

 

No CMing. And, knowing that a permanent mooring is what a home moorer pays for. It offers no discounting on use of the canal.

 

 

It was a multiple choice question but you have made up your own option (5).

[Higgs]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Indeed they have, but only the T&Cs that are lawful can be applied, C&RT can request compliance with other T&Cs but at the end of the day C&RT do not any authority to write new laws'.

 

Oh, really? It seems they can circumvent the law, in marinas.

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Paul C said:

It was a multiple choice question but you have made up your own option (5).

 

Was it? 

 

 

Edited April 27 by Higgs

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Higgs said:

 

Oh, really? 

 

 

 

Thats the sort of thing my 8 year old Son would have said, along with stamping his feet, when he knew he had lost the argument.

 

That'll be all from you then ?

[Paul C]

3 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

 

 

Was it? 

 

 

 

Let me put it another way - which legislation or byelaw or T&C or guideline is broken by "CMing"? For your benefit, they are all available online:

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1995/1/enacted#:~:text=An Act to confer powers,and in relation to their and others

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/1025-general-canal-byelaws-1965.pdf?v=a2628a

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/original/43943-general-terms-and-conditions-for-boat-licenses-june-2021-searchable-file.pdf

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/41331-the-boaters-handbook.pdf?v=971d3a

Edited April 27 by Paul C

[Higgs]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Thats the sort of thing my 8 year old Son would have said, along with stamping his feet, when he knew he had lost the argument.

 

That'll be all from you then ?

 

You can't have it both ways. That's what a kid would want.

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

2 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Oh, really? It seems they can circumvent the law, in marinas.

 

 

 

 

 

Was it? 

 

 

Gawd, not that again...

[Higgs]

Just now, Paul C said:

 

Let me put it another way - which legislation or byelaw or T&C or guideline is broken by "CMing"?

 

Do you mean, you have no objections to it happening?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Arthur Marshall said:

Gawd, not that again...

 

His needle has got stuck in that groove again - someone give him a kick.

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Gawd, not that again...

 

What principles would you like to discuss. Your notion that, if you have a home mooring, you are somehow paying toward a use of the canal that your mooring contract hasn't mentioned?

 

 

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

Do you mean, you have no objections to it happening?

 

 

I don't know what you mean by "CMing" - can you define it?

[Higgs]

Just now, Paul C said:

I don't know what you mean by "CMing" - can you define it?

 

You're new here?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Yup - He's lost.

[Higgs]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

Yup - He's lost.

 

Are you?

 

 

[Paul C]

3 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

You're new here?

 

 

 

It would be useful for us both (all) to agree on what we're discussing. "CMing" is a colloquial term, not a fixed/defined thing. So I'd like you to say what YOU mean by it, before I offer any opinion on it. 

 

Forum joining dates are clearly displayed in each user's profile - maybe I should ask if you are new here, given the relative dates of our joining this forum?