Clicking when trying to start engine

[Lizette]

12 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I am intensely sceptical that anything to do with a stop solenoid would cause the starter solenoid to click and not engage the starter.

The stop solenoid cuts off the fuel supply to stop the engine when it is running. That is all.

I have a deep distrust of RCR from many years of experience. 

Oh blimey! They won't be coming for a few days ,so will see when they arrive. It sounds to me ,from what you are all saying , that there is more going on. I am not sure where to explore further. I shall re look at wiring.

[Tony Brooks]

34 minutes ago, Lizette said:

Oh blimey! They won't be coming for a few days ,so will see when they arrive. It sounds to me ,from what you are all saying , that there is more going on. I am not sure where to explore further. I shall re look at wiring.

 

Don't worry, let's see if RCR have solved it. They were on site, the rest of us are not. Ignoring the 13V you mentioned, there is still every chance it was a faulty start battery, especially as I don't recall getting the cranking voltages or how you measured it, so there is no way we can be sure about anything.

[Lizette]

40 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Don't worry, let's see if RCR have solved it. They were on site, the rest of us are not. Ignoring the 13V you mentioned, there is still every chance it was a faulty start battery, especially as I don't recall getting the cranking voltages or how you measured it, so there is no way we can be sure about anything.

The battery is certainly shot, it's on its knees!

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, Lizette said:

The battery is certainly shot, it's on its knees!

 

That was the initial problem then, much as many of us suggested.

[Tracy D'arth]

Show me any connection with the stop solenoid on the deluxe panel diagram.

[PineappleGuy]

Does this diagram help re stop solenoid wiring? No need for any connection at the actual panel?

When our Shire engine needed a new stop solenoid  a few years ago, it had to come from Yanmar in Japan! Took a few weeks, hope the OP has better luck.

 

Edited April 27 by PineappleGuy

[Tony Brooks]

20 minutes ago, PineappleGuy said:

Does this diagram help re stop solenoid wiring?

 

Whether it is an energise to stop or energise to run solenoid, it must be given a feed at the appropriate time and in all typical installations that would come from somewhere on the control panel, be it a push button for energise to stop, or the ignition switch for both cases, but with different switching and terminations depending upon which it is. If there is no stop button, then the solenoid feed is likely to be from the ignition switch.

 

To see which it is, you need both the engine and the panel wiring diagram(s), but my guess is that it is an energise to run.

Edited April 27 by Tony Brooks

[Lizette]

On 27/04/2024 at 10:02, Tony Brooks said:

 

Whether it is an energise to stop or energise to run solenoid, it must be given a feed at the appropriate time and in all typical installations that would come from somewhere on the control panel, be it a push button for energise to stop, or the ignition switch for both cases, but with different switching and terminations depending upon which it is. If there is no stop button, then the solenoid feed is likely to be from the ignition switch.

 

To see which it is, you need both the engine and the panel wiring diagram(s), but my guess is that it is an energise to run.

 

This is all totally over my head. Repair not yet done. I will need to sit on it a few more weeks.

I must admit I have ignored the issue for a few days,busy doing other things to the boat.

I am learning lots from tapping in to your discussions though. 

I shall keep you all posted. I am determined to conquer my lack of knowledge with the electrics,in some part,at least.

[Tony Brooks]

17 minutes ago, Lizette said:

 

This is all totally over my head. Repair not yet done. I will need to sit on it a few more weeks.

I must admit I have ignored the issue for a few days,busy doing other things to the boat.

I am learning lots from tapping in to your discussions though. 

I shall keep you all posted. I am determined to conquer my lack of knowledge with the electrics,in some part,at least.

 

Please be aware that my comment was addressed to what PineappleGuy posted because he seems to have suggested a stop solenoid does not need connection(s) to the control panel. If that is what he meant, he was wrong, so I wanted to shut that thought down ASAP.

 

There won't be a stop button or switch in the control panel if the stop solenoid requires electricity to allow the engine to run, and it gets it from the ignition switch. This type of setup usually just needs the ignition to be turned off to stop the engine, like a car.

 

I am waiting to hear what the final outcome is, so unless someone else posts what I think is misleading information, I can't and won't comment any more that I have.

[Tracy D'arth]

I too am awaiting the outcome.

Consulting both the panel and the engine wiring diagrams I can find no connection between the stop solenoid and the starter solenoid which could remotely cause the engine not to crank over to start.

[Tony Brooks]

36 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I too am awaiting the outcome.

Consulting both the panel and the engine wiring diagrams I can find no connection between the stop solenoid and the starter solenoid which could remotely cause the engine not to crank over to start.

 

Just musing and not for Lizzette to worry about.

 

If the start battery was flat/shot AND it IS an energise to run solenoid, then judging by what we learned about the Shanks the stop solenoid may be a complicated but of kit with two windings and contacts. If so, the clicking can be easily explained by the flat battery, while the smoking (assuming it was the stop solenoid) could be explained by the flat battery not providing enough energy to fully move the solenoid and open the pull in coil contacts. If so, the low resistance, high currant pull in coll may well smoke if left energised for more than a few seconds.

 

Note - conjecture, not fact, happy to discuss.

[Lizette]

46 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Just musing and not for Lizzette to worry about.

 

If the start battery was flat/shot AND it IS an energise to run solenoid, then judging by what we learned about the Shanks the stop solenoid may be a complicated but of kit with two windings and contacts. If so, the clicking can be easily explained by the flat battery, while the smoking (assuming it was the stop solenoid) could be explained by the flat battery not providing enough energy to fully move the solenoid and open the pull in coil contacts. If so, the low resistance, high currant pull in coll may well smoke if left energised for more than a few seconds.

 

Note - conjecture, not fact, happy to discuss.

Yes,indeed. This is what I thought but could not articulate. 

[Tracy D'arth]

I am having trouble understanding a stop solenoid clicking repeatedly. I get a flat battery passing too much current into the solenoid because it will not engage causing it to overheat.

[Tony Brooks]

40 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I am having trouble understanding a stop solenoid clicking repeatedly. I get a flat battery passing too much current into the solenoid because it will not engage causing it to overheat.

 

I don't think it was the stop solenoid clicking, I think it was the starter solenoid machine-gunning on low voltage. However, if the motor load is enough to allow the starter solenoid to drop out as the motor drops the voltage, I suspect an energise to run solenoid with two windings would react in the same way.

 

I would have thought you would have seen machine-gunning many times:

 

The battery provides enough voltage to energise the solenoid so the contact close.

The closed contact energise the motor, but the high current demand causes sufficient voltage drop of the solenoid to drop out.

This repeats until the battery is so flat it can't pull the solenoid in.

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't think it was the stop solenoid clicking, I think it was the starter solenoid machine-gunning on low voltage. However, if the motor load is enough to allow the starter solenoid to drop out as the motor drops the voltage, I suspect an energise to run solenoid with two windings would react in the same way.

 

I would have thought you would have seen machine-gunning many times:

 

The battery provides enough voltage to energise the solenoid so the contact close.

The closed contact energise the motor, but the high current demand causes sufficient voltage drop of the solenoid to drop out.

This repeats until the battery is so flat it can't pull the solenoid in.

Starter solenoids machine-gunning, yes, but that's only a flat battery. As I said a first, needs just a new battery!

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Starter solenoids machine-gunning, yes, but that's only a flat battery. As I said a first, needs just a new battery!

 

I think we both agree on that, but if the OP kept on the low voltage could have overheated the stop solenoid, so RCR think that it needs a new one. (Assuming the stop solenoid is as I supposed). My guess is that if it were you or I dealing with it, we would have dealt with the battery to see if the stop solenoid still worked.

 

Without going back, I think that there was talk about jumping off the domestic bank and if so it suggests they may be flat/faulty as well, but that may be another problem.

[PineappleGuy]

19 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Please be aware that my comment was addressed to what PineappleGuy posted because he seems to have suggested a stop solenoid does not need connection(s) to the control panel. If that is what he meant, he was wrong, so I wanted to shut that thought down ASAP.

 

There won't be a stop button or switch in the control panel if the stop solenoid requires electricity to allow the engine to run, and it gets it from the ignition switch. This type of setup usually just needs the ignition to be turned off to stop the engine, like a car.

 

I am waiting to hear what the final outcome is, so unless someone else posts what I think is misleading information, I can't and won't comment any more that I have.

To be fair, I was just picking up on Tracy's post that there was no evidence of stop solenoid wiring on the control panel diagram so where does the stop solenoid get its power from? The complementary diagram that I posted clearly shows a stop solenoid so I was merely wondering whether it gets its power from another connection that is activated by the ignition switch e.g. the diagram shows a White(2) wire from the starter solenoid labelled "stop sol. pull in trig".

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, PineappleGuy said:

To be fair, I was just picking up on Tracy's post that there was no evidence of stop solenoid wiring on the control panel diagram so where does the stop solenoid get its power from? The complementary diagram that I posted clearly shows a stop solenoid so I was merely wondering whether it gets its power from another connection that is activated by the ignition switch e.g. the diagram shows a White(2) wire from the starter solenoid labelled "stop sol. pull in trig".

I was not criticising what you wrote, more trying to clarify it for others, so apologies if it came across as criticism. The diagram is valuable.

 

White is the old UK automotive colour for ignition controlled, so yes, almost certainly from the ignition switch. The last few words above suggest the solenoid is, in fact, a run solenoid and may not be a simple one coil affair.

[Tracy D'arth]

The wiring shows 3 connections, a ground, a trigger and a run. So its a pull in coil and a hold in coil, fairly conventional. 

[Teaman]

Lizette,

 

Came across what I believe is your dilemma re the starter motor.  Is all sorted ?