1500 Injection pump timing

[Mikexx]

This engine ran albeit not that well, and I don't want to run it for long without coolant. Given this was a 'training' engine before I purchased it all bets are off regards timing though I doubt the pump drive gear has been removed as it seems captive.

 

I have timed the crank pulley to be what I believe is 22 degrees before TDC. No 4 valves are tight in this position and rocking around TDC.

 

This is a photo of the splines with the pump removed. I don't have a pic or diagram of where the splines should be, the manuals I have at hand have only a reference to a timing tool. Can anyone indicate this is good for correct timing?

 

 

[john.k]

If its a "college engine" ,its likely the injector pump has been dismantled by students .....and possible the cam ring has been assembled upside down.......it fits either way............or some other derangement inside the pump.

[Tony Brooks]

My comments.

 

The manual says that the master spline on the pump drive should end up at 5 o'clock, but yours looks a bit further round clockwise - say closer to 6 o'clock. The skew gear drive teeth are not fine enough to allow this, so it suggests the cam shaft timing may be out for some reason. As the master spline is not that far out, I wonder if the timing chain is very stretched.

 

Let's tag @Tracy D'arth for her opinion.

 

If you want exact timing that allows for backlash in the timing train then you do need the tool so you can set the pointer on the top left corner of the mounting plate that you can see in the photo, but I understand many mechanics today do it by ear, by twisting the pump with the engine running.

 

If the oil jet and filter that lubricates the pump drive skew gears ha snot been regularly cleaned then on an old engine the skew gears could be very badly worn, so a new camshaft is needed.

 

Edited March 5 by Tony Brooks

[RLWP]

I have a timing tool, if that helps

 

Richard

[Mikexx]

4 hours ago, john.k said:

If its a "college engine" ,its likely the injector pump has been dismantled by students .....and possible the cam ring has been assembled upside down.......it fits either way............or some other derangement inside the pump.

 

The old injection pump didn't pump so used another pump. TBH it looked in poor condition where fuel was leaking from the throttle arm. The 'new' pump has been on a working engine.

 

What do you mean by 'cam ring'?

 

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

My comments.

 

The manual says that the master spline on the pump drive should end up at 5 o'clock, but yours looks a bit further round clockwise - say closer to 6 o'clock. The skew gear drive teeth are not fine enough to allow this, so it suggests the cam shaft timing may be out for some reason. As the master spline is not that far out, I wonder if the timing chain is very stretched.

 

Let's tag @Tracy D'arth for her opinion.

 

If you want exact timing that allows for backlash in the timing train then you do need the tool so you can set the pointer on the top left corner of the mounting plate that you can see in the photo, but I understand many mechanics today do it by ear, by twisting the pump with the engine running.

 

If the oil jet and filter that lubricates the pump drive skew gears ha snot been regularly cleaned then on an old engine the skew gears could be very badly worn, so a new camshaft is needed.

 

 

During the time the engine ran there wasn't any perceptible chain noise. But then I was more concerned over the black smoke filling the area I was working and there was no silencer.

 

I think the splines/pump run in a an anticlockwise direction and the crank pulley was set close to 22 degrees. If at TDC the key would be closer to 5 o'clock.

 

I have timed pumps by ear myself and one of the reasons why I replace the solid pipes with hoses, otherwise the 'side' cover gasket invariably leaks from crushing/manipulation of the cork gasket. The force to overcome the spring in the injector pipes is still significant!

 

A good call about the oil jet and filter. Also an idea to remove the injector mount body and take a look at the pinion. I suppose I can gauge chain stretch from the level of backlash, but don't have any reference to compare that with.

3 hours ago, RLWP said:

I have a timing tool, if that helps

 

Richard

 

Hi Richard, many thanks for the offer. TBH I was more worried about the position of the skew gear shaft.

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Mikexx said:

think the splines/pump run in a an anticlockwise direction and the crank pulley was set close to 22 degrees. If at TDC the key would be closer to 5 o'clock

 

But the manual says set the engine to 22 DBTDC, not TDC, and then fit the drive shaft with the master spline at 7 o'clock. When you push it home it should revolve to settle at 5 o'clock. See below.

 

 

Unfortunately, wishful thinking won't put the master spline at 5 o'clock.

 

If there is any backlash at all with a bit of dowel driven into the splines under a light twist it will be backlash in the gears, although the handle on the gauge allows you more leverage to move the camshaft as well so any backlash is both in the gears and timing chain.

 

Cam Ring;

 

It is an internal part of the injection plump, but as it has a "lever" for automatic advance and retard screwed into it, I don't see how it can be fitted upside down, but as I have never been inside one, I can't be sure. Anyway, that green paint looks very familiar, so I may be acquainted with that actual engine. If this is the case than until I gave the engine away the pump was never even taken off the engine, let alone striped - neither were the injectors. It ran well enough off load without excess smoke. This supposes it is the same engine, it may not be.

[Tracy D'arth]

Tagged indeed.

 

I would start by taking the front cover off and checking the chain and the important tensioner.

Then check the condition or the pump drive pinion and the camshaft gear.  If there is any backlash it needs sorting before thinking about the pump position.

Follow the manual instructions when fitting the pump pinion. If it lines up then fine.

Doesn't this engine time up on #1 rather than #4?  1 is at the chain end.

Final timing without the gauge is by ear for me, it is fairly easy.

If you can borrow/hire a gauge I would make a copy whilst you have it, they are rare and unobtainable.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Tagged indeed.

 

I would start by taking the front cover off and checking the chain and the important tensioner.

Then check the condition or the pump drive pinion and the camshaft gear.  If there is any backlash it needs sorting before thinking about the pump position.

Follow the manual instructions when fitting the pump pinion. If it lines up then fine.

Doesn't this engine time up on #1 rather than #4?  1 is at the chain end.

Final timing without the gauge is by ear for me, it is fairly easy.

If you can borrow/hire a gauge I would make a copy whilst you have it, they are rare and unobtainable.

 

For clarity, he did time on no. 1, the talk of no.4 was to say both valves were slightly open (valve overlap) so No. 1 was close to TDC. If he had timed on No. 4 then the master spline would be at 11 o'clock or the drive shaft would have been fitted 180 degrees out - then I doubt it would run.

 

Thanks for implying that the master spllne does not look in the right place.

 

[Tony Brooks]

16 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is an internal part of the injection plump, but as it has a "lever" for automatic advance and retard screwed into it, I don't see how it can be fitted upside down,

 

Upon further thought, I think the "cams" on the inside of the cam ring are a special asymmetrical shape, so the ring probably can be fitted back to front.

[RLWP]

20 hours ago, Mikexx said:

 

 

Hi Richard, many thanks for the offer. TBH I was more worried about the position of the skew gear shaft.

 

That's one of the things the timing tool does

[Tony Brooks]

33 minutes ago, RLWP said:

 

That's one of the things the timing tool does

 

Yes, if the tool fouls the pump mounting studs the shaft is in the wrong place, but it will not tell you why. Knowing the pitch of the gear teeth, I don't see how the shaft has been fitted in the wrong position, but the master spline looks as if it is wrong.  Personally, I would remove the pump mounting plate and withdraw the shaft so I could inspect the gear teeth (those on the camshaft as well) and only if they all look good would I take the timing cover off.

[Mikexx]

This is a low priority task and conscious the time it has taken me so far.

 

With the crank at a nominal 22 degrees before TDC I removed the injection pump mounting block and moved the skew gear round one notch. Before and after photos here.

 

I feel it starts better, the issue is where it now starts and then dies, even with full throttle it dies with no smoke implying fuel starvation. After a few seconds it can then be restarted.

[Tony Brooks]

That does look better, but I am surprised one tooth did not make more difference. I think the original photo showed the master spline a few degrees before 6 o'clock. I agree, the issue sounds more like a fuel problem.

 

Make sure the banjo bolt holding the leak back pipe to the top of the filter is hollow and with a small hole in the side. Those holes can block and allow air to build up in the filter head.

[Mikexx]

16 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

That does look better, but I am surprised one tooth did not make more difference. I think the original photo showed the master spline a few degrees before 6 o'clock. I agree, the issue sounds more like a fuel problem.

 

Make sure the banjo bolt holding the leak back pipe to the top of the filter is hollow and with a small hole in the side. Those holes can block and allow air to build up in the filter head.

 

Thanks for your vote of confidence. I don't think the issue is air? If I undo the banjo I get fuel but will check. It's a new filter. My thoughts were the screen filter in the pump.

 

If it stops, the pressure seems to "build up" sufficiently for a restart.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

 

Thanks for your vote of confidence. I don't think the issue is air? If I undo the banjo I get fuel but will check. It's a new filter. My thoughts were the screen filter in the pump.

 

If it stops, the pressure seems to "build up" sufficiently for a restart.

 

Simple enough to check BUT on no account remove the rubber seal from the cap. They tend to swell so you can't get them back in. Also make sure that the domed pump cap has not collapsed under the bolt. You can knock it back to shape with a ball side of a hammer. Also, I would use a new soft washer under the bolt head.

 

You will get fuel out of the threaded hole if you pump the lift pump, but if you have any slight air leak, or air dissolved in the fuel it will try to build up in the filter head, the small hole in the side of the bolt is supposed to allow any air and a small amount of fuel to flow back to the tank.

 

The filter (and any 296 type primary water trap) are notorious for having the seals fitted incorrectly. Wrong seal in the wrong locations, twisted seals, seals not in the slot, and on filter head bolts that are O ring sealed some filter suppliers have supplied the wrong small O ring.

 

Try checking the fuel delivery to the filter (or through that banjo bolt hole) when turning the engine over by hand or starter. It can be easy to fit the pump lever in the wrong side of the cam shaft eccentric and that damage it so it won't deliver any fuel, although the priming lever will deliver fuel. Being an ex college engine, that might be al ikely cause