billh

We've done the MSC a few times and I believe we set a couple of records. On one occasion we went aground on the stretch between weston sluices and Stanlow. Passing a Stolt line tanker , I took a wide course over to the Mersey bank and the tanker draw, pulled us down onto the mud for a few seconds- we were still about 30ft from the bank! The only NB to go aground on MSC? On another occasion we headed out of Ellesmere Port, single boat at 7AM,they weren't ready for us at Latchford Locks, even though they had heard we were "going for it". Lunch was at Castlefield , at 1pm and we tied up at home moorings at Guide Bridge ,Ashton at 7:30pm, 32 locks and about 35 miles later. A bit faster than via Chester, Middlewich etc. The MSC locks are very gentle , filling or emptying, compared to say Dukes 92. . On one trip we passed a couple of the Carmet Towing tugs motoring up the canal, there was no wash from them until they were about 400yards astern, and the wash caught us by surprise - exciting rather than frightening. In the same area- on the River Weaver though, I have a photo of us sharing a lock with a coaster in 1977, don't think that would be allowed now, even if you could still get a coaster up the Weaver. Roger Lorenz does CofS , and very local to you Bill

Here is some information about the section 8 procedure. The section 8 is, as someone else said , a last resort. Having posted the notices and taped up the boat, BW have to keep the boat for 3 months to allow the owner to come forward and pay any accounts owing. If the owner fails to do so or cannot be traced , BW can dispose of the boat ,but only after 3months. Within that time BW must look after the boat , usually by removing it to some secure place ( if necessary paying for it to be in a private marina or yard ). I f the boat is likely to be worth more than £1000, then BW must get a survey on the boat to obtain a valuation- The surveyor is not a BW employee so there is more expense. At the end of 3 months, if the owner has not paid or is not traced the boat can either be advertised for sale or removed from the canal and scrapped. The whole process costs BW about £2000 per boat so you can see their great reluctance to commence the section 8 procedure. In this case it would appear that BW have not safely secured the boat for the required 3 months and have not disposed of the boat , by sale or scrapping after that period, not a very satisfactory situation. Bill

Nice work! Is this a 2LB model? We have one of these in a Simplex loco ( 2ft gauge) and a straight eight (8LB) on an ex GPO genset, the latter would go nicely in a diesel-electric tug, 220 HP at full power. I believe Dorman only ever made 3 of the 8 cylinder versions so it could be a bit rare- unless anyone knows differently. Bill

I believe Spey ( Clayton boat) is now fitted with air starting apparatus- something to do with the advancing years of the owners(allegedly). I do remember trying to start Spey's Bolinder years ago- 3 squirts of the hand primer, kick it , doesn't start, repeated a few times without success. 10 squirts, kick, loud explosion ,exhaust splitter goes into orbit, engine revs pick up , everyone runs for cover behind a wall, engine approaches bursting speed (seems like 10,000rpm), governor cuts in and everything's fine, off we go! Bill

The ice breaker Marple is one of seven rivetted iron horse drawn ice breakers built by the MS&L Railway at Gorton Manchester in the 1860's for the Ashton , Peak Forest and Macclesfield Canals. Latterly in use as a floating brew hut by BW on the Macc it had not been used as an ice breaker since before WW2. Last time I saw it , it was in reasonable condition with what appeared to be its original iron rudder & tiller. Allegedly, there is another of the seven , name unknown, buried in the filled in Stockport Branch at Gorton. There are vague plans afoot to excavate it. If necessary, a home could be found for Marple on the Ashton Canal alongside the other local survivors from Gorton, Joel & Maria( originally built at Jink's at Marple Top in 1854, but maintained at Gorton for many years.)

I stand corrected then. Obviously very confused at this time of the year, sorry. It did sound like a good reason for having gates there though. So, just what purpose did they serve, assuming they are original( 18th/19th Century) installations ? Bill

I read somewhere that the purpose of the gates was this: boat or boats were moved into the tunnel, at one end or the other , the gate was closed and water from a large pump, at one end, was pumped in or pumped out from the tunnel, creating a current which carried the boats through in the relevant direction. The size of the pump obviously regulated the speed of the boat(s) which I don't expect was that great. It would of course , only be necessary to close one gate at any one time. I have no idea when this method of propulsion was dispensed with. HTH Bill

Just for the record..... The Peak Forest Canal Society and the successors of that very worthy organisation had no hand in the "removal" of Seal. I vaguely remember she was moored in Castlefield for a time , with someone living aboard and later moved around Manchester a bit. I can say with certainty that PFCS people had no official dealings with the boat. With regards to the so-called "collection/salvage" of other wooden boats, this was done with approval from the authorities at the time. It should be remembered that when the Ashton and Peak Forest Canal were being restored there were numerous sunken relics in the waterway, some had been abandoned 50 years or more, all were in very poor condition and then , as now,BW wanted them tidied away , that is , broken up and burnt. Fortunately, there were , and still are, individuals prepared to put a lot of time & effort into keeping our waterway heritage alive, be it in the canals themselves or the vessels that use them. Bill

Dave, When was that then? 70ft Wooden boat through- at the opening and several times since then, including this year. I can't see too much problem with GRP but probably best if on the back end of the tow. Of course if we are now allowed to take boats under power , the smaller GRP boats will be easier to handle and less likely to be damaged , especially with well placed fenders and owner steering. I guess you could sum it up like this: steel hull, rock, stone , bolt heads- the comastic, or blacking or whatever gets scraped off , steel goes rusty corrosion starts. Wooden hull, blacking/tar gets scraped off , rot (may) start . GRP- gel coat gets scraped and apart from cosmetics nothing much happens ( Not going down the osmosis road). Whatever happens in the tunnel can be dealt with at the next docking. To be honest, a wooden hull (and I suspect GRP)is more vulnerable to damage going through thin ice than anything sustained in Standedge. Bill

Hi, A quick resume of our boat- motorized from a wooden horseboat in 1927, engine fitted was a 9HP Kelvin petrol/paraffin. Rebuilt 1948 with a 15HP Kelvin petrol engine. Rebuilt 1989, fitted 30-36HP Kelvin-Ricardo petrol/paraffin. We still have the 1948 engine . I think the boat was the only Kelvin powered narrowboat from 'new' . The current fad for Kelvin diesels seemed to start about 15 years ago- prior to that they were mainly fitted in fishing boats and lighthouses, though I don't recall any instance where a lighthouse got under way with one . On a different note, Mr Job, on your National pictures is a photo of National Gas & Oil Engine works, where you are taking the picture from just outside my sister's business premises , which was the old National's ambulance rooms. The heavy iron stop at the front door looks like part of an unfinished National piston about 6inches diameter- I suspect it has been employed in this position for many years. I have been dabbling a bit with a 2 cylinder National in another wooden motor- it has no electric starter and hand starting it at this time of the year rates 9/10 for difficulty with very high risk of heart attack! Bill

I think the Mirlees you refer to may now be the one in Manchester museum of science and industry? Also are some of the others you mention not still in place through not being accesible enough to remove? The one in the MMSI is a 3 cylinder of the same model but built much later (1920s) and is in working order. The one from Barton definitely went to the Anson Museum, I don't know if any restoration work has been done, all the pipework was missing from it . The engine was removed in pieces from the pump house using a short length of 2ft gauge railway and the MSCs crane boat Buffalo(?) taking it as deck cargo to near Irlam locks where it was transhipped to road transport. As far as I know, the engine at Latchford is still in situ, it could be recovered by the same method, ie using floating crane. It is of the same vintage(1907) . These are quite big engines, having a ladder up the side and a walkway along the side for access to the open rockers etc. Starting is by compressed air, there is a single cylinder compressor at one end of the engine. The reason the Barton engine was recovered was because MSC were to install a hydro electric plant in the old pump house , the output of which was to go to the nearby Peel Holding's Trafford Centre and the old engine was to be scrapped. I don't know if the HE scheme is still running but it could be a prototype for British Waterways at say Marple Locks to sell electricity to the National Grid , never mind if it empties the Peak Forest in the process. ( last bit only partly tongue in cheek) Bill

Hi, Never had much success with potable blacking . Cement wash is the way to go- buy a bag of Portland cement(£2.50) , add water until it's in a paste and brush it on all steel work having cleaned loose rust off. Needs about 24 hours to set , possibly then another coat. Standard practice for freshwater tanks and bilge steelwork in ships. Also makes a hard wearing surface for work boat steel decks ,landing stages etc. I think iron water mains are often treated with a cement lining to stop rusting and colouring of the water Bill

Hi, Widdop 2 cylinder air start in the tug Aleida at Ellesmere Port - had it running round the lower basin a few years ago- there's a video of it somewhere including the collision with Daniel Adamson when the Widdop stalled. The only damage was to our dog's ear which somehow got cut on some part of the boat. About 1970, I was at Dale St Basin in Manchester when an old wooden motor barge which I think was the Rochdale Canal Co's maintenance boat was being broken up using a 22RB dragline. The engine in the boat was recovered for scrap. The memory fades but I am pretty sure it was a Gardner semi-diesel single. looked similar to a Bolinder but much bigger, there was a spoked flywheel about 4ft diameter and the cylinder head was missing (may have been in the bilges, other parts were. ). I do not recollect seeing any air starting bottles though I doubt very much if it could be kick started like a Bolinder. I think a friend of mine still has the air control cover from the side of the crankcase. Speaking of Mirrlees, I was involved in recovering a 4cylinder Mirrlees Bickerton & Day air blast diesel from Barton Locks on the MSC- It went to the Anson Museum at Poynton. Built in 1907 it was engine number 35 from the Stockport Works and was meant to be for backpumping but apparently was never used for that purpose. There were similar engines at Latchford & Mode Wheel. Something like 200HP at 200rpm ( might not be accurate) Bill

Nice engine , interesting video. I thought the whole point of the petrol starting process was that you could do it by starting handle for when the batteries were flat , stolen or maybe never installed. The impulse mag, low compression petrol chambers etc enable you to just turn the handle slowly and away it goes, independant of any electricity supply and do-able even in a force 10 off the West coast of Scotland. Kelvin claim even the K6 132HP can be started by hand using this method.Still a lot more dignified than leaping about in the engine room trying to kick one of them Bollingers up.( done that - good chance of breaking a leg , foot or head and/or burns from the blow lamp) Bill

Sorry for adjusting the topic slightly... I wondered about other folks recent experiences with BW licensing. This year I have responsibility for licensing 3 different boats, the renewals fell due in February, June and September. The one in February , I received no reminder - when contacted BW said they were changing the license class (without consulting me) but after some discussion we finished up paying the same as we expected to , though it is not clear how that was derived. The June one , I received no reminder, I phoned and queried this and was told it was Royal Mail's fault as it was sent in May, they would send a duplicate (which significantly , arrived next day) but the BW person said I would not get the prompt payment discount as it wasn't BWs fault. My answer to that is that I have not renewed the license for this boat and will not be using it for the time being- it is not moored on the canal ( and not logged by the BW patrol officer on monthly checks). I expect it appears on the defaulters' list though. The September license- the reminder arrived in good time - letter addressed to me with name of boat and reg. number correct, accompanying the letter is the actual renewal document with all boat and licensee's details printed out- sadly this was for a different boat and licensee in another part of the country. The only things common were the renewal date and the owners initials! Phoned BW again, explaining the situation. Reply was , " oh not again, which boat does it refer to?, please destroy the incorrect details" The correct details arrived next day- but lots of people around the place must have personal information bandied about by a very careless BW licensing system (not sure it is a system). What does the DPA say about that? From my own experience it seems BW licensing is an utter shambles, a view confirmed recently by a BW employee. I should mention that 2 of the boats in question have been licensed with BW for 30 years- they have had plenty of dosh in that time- enough to pay for a decent system - licensing system that is, not canal system( which is another issue). With each license reminder ( if we actually get one) we are invited to "renew on line- it's quicker & more convenient!" Oh Yes? - they'll take the DeFRA grant shortfall off me using that route , given half a chance. Any comments out there? Bill

Do you mean Elizabeth, the Runcorn "header" boat?- If so , the answer is no she has ceased to exist. She was sunk at the Ashton Old Wharf in the wide about 20 years ago and was broken up using a dredger- not sure if it was BW or the Huddersfield CS restoration people who were working there at the time. The sterngear was re-used in a brand new steel boat, the engine was a Lister SR3 , I don't know if that was recovered. Another Runcorn boat was the Agnes( AKA "Agmess")- also sunk in Ashton, she was destroyed when the tunnel was built for Asda, near Cavendish St. Bill

I have run an alternator on an old engine (<1000rpm) for years. The v belt drive runs on the rim of the flywheel to get enough alternator revs. Here is the good bit..... because there is a large area of contact on the flywheel the v belt does not need a groove in the flywheel- it runs on the flat of the inside of the belt. Pay particular attention to lining up the alternator mountings and the belt will stay on a steady track on the flywheel. On my system the alternator was a second hand CAV (model AC5) and I put a new front bearing and brushes in it 18 years ago , it still works fine. QED, I think. Bill