agg221

Thanks for the comment - I wasn't sure how much of the T&M was at risk of closure. If it's only up around the summit then there shouldn't be a problem, although annoyingly it does mean I can't go the other way around as planned in order to visit Dick Goble to take a look at the engine. That will have to wait until another time. Alec

We are going to need to move from the Soar to Market Drayton at some point. It's a bit tricky as we can't move yet but if the T&M closes we are stuck, and when there is enough water for it to re-open that probably means the Trent will be in flood. Not quite sure how to play that one. Alec

To keep everything in proportion on Oates which has a relatively shallow hull and correspondingly shallow cabin, it was fitted with a hydraulic drive c.1999. It was a high quality installation, done by some very reputable people on a Kelvin J2 (22hp but they're big horses!). It's a 38' boat with a very efficient hull (round bottomed, long swim etc). This means it has plenty of power and does not whine. The main advantage is that you can walk straight through the back cabin without stooping and the prop is mounted at the ideal height. The system is pretty simple and probably heavily over-engineered (like most of the engine and boat). I am aware that a major failure would be more expensive than a simple shaft failure and I will gradually piece together the bits to reinstate the gearbox internals if they turn up (anyone got any spare bits of Kelvin J type gearbox?) but for the time being, the conclusion appears to be that well designed, well installed, high quality hydraulic drives do not present an issue as a long-term solution. Alec

Hmm, missing infrastructure. One of my pet hates is closed up gaps on the split bridges on lock tails. Working up single-handed it is so much easier to bow-haul in than to drive in and climb up the lock ladder but when the gaps in the split bridges have been closed up this becomes impossible. I may possibly have damaged the shiny paint on a strapping post at the head of a lock on the T&M by having the temerity to use it! It proved to be just about structural enough for the purpose. Alec

Thought so! I used to co-own Hagley. To the OP: avoid wooden boats (I only wish I could take my own advice as I still have Samson)! Alec

Personally, I would rather have the level switch with the risk of flat leisure batteries than not have it with the certainty that the boat would sink if water starts coming in. Whether the bilges stay dry does depend to an extent on the design, and even the detailing. A trad stern with a fully welded counter deck should stay dry. Add access to the weed hatch and there is now an ingress point. If arranged so that there is no connection between the counter and the rest of the cabin then only the counter would fill up but if not separated by a bulkhead there will be some ingress. If you have wooden cants at the bow or stern then they are normally bolted through which means holes and a bit of water creeping in. If you weld studs on instead then no holes, but it's more effort so less likely to happen on a boat built to a budget. There are various other details around the foredeck and whether it has a well and how that drains which can determine whether you get a perfect seal or not. Alec

You don't have a wooden bottomed boat do you - your approach looks horribly familiar...! Alec

Exactly. I look at it like little grains of sand. Some will flow straight through but others will stick and gradually it will build something. The alternative is that the staff of CRT continues to have little connection with the waterways and that surely can't be a good thing? Alec

I agree it's a pretty stretch. The problem comes when time is not on your side. I've done it twice, both on hireboats. The first was 25yrs ago on a Middlewich boat, taking it back at the end of a trip. The trip had started a day late as they had tried to swap the engine between hires and failed to finish on time. In the rush they forgot to adjust the braking band on the gearbox, which held out for most of the trip but eventually snapped (I should point out that until that happened we had no clue that there was an issue, we just knew we had lost a day of our trip and were on catch-up) and we had to get back from the Caldon to Middlewich with no reverse. It was a particularly bleak Easter too - grey and overcast with no sign of spring. The combination did not make for pleasant memories of that flight. We went through it this summer the other way and it was very attractive but we had a pre-booked passage through the Harecastle to make at 4pm and despite having pushed on the evening before to the limits of daylight and started early that day, we still only made it with 5mins to spare. What was frustrating was the number of the paired locks where the second lock was not operational, even though everything was still there. It looked like when something broke they just wrapped a bit of red and white tape round it and left it. Alec

I suppose it's like a lot of other businesses - if you make widgets then the IT department or payroll or whatever may have no idea about those widgets - they don't need to on the face of it to do their job. It looks like our purchase is about to complete, and for various reasons the best way from where it is to where it needs to be involves Heartbreak Hill, and I will probably be single-handing it through that bit. That would be a good place to take someone for a day out methinks... Alec

It is possible that we may have been instrumental in creating the thinking which led to the original scheme. A friend who at the time was contracted to BW to generate its online maps was assigned to the marketing department. At the time, BW had a newly converted hybrid diesel/electric boat which was located somewhere up the Shropshire Union (near Adderley I think from memory). It was needed at an event in Stratford on Avon and then at an event in central Birmingham the following weekend. There was a big discussion in the office around the logistics of arranging cranes and lorries and where it could be dropped back in. When he asked 'why don't you move it by water?' my friend got the answer 'can you do that?'. It transpired that of all the people in the department he was the only one who had even been on a canal. What then happened was that my wife and I turned up at the boat (called Waterscape) on Friday evening, meeting a few other friends at Market Drayton on the Saturday morning to sort car shuffles. We took it down to Gas Street on the Saturday, then on to Kingswood on the Sunday. My friend was then joined by others from the department on the Monday morning to take it down the southern Stratford so they got some sense of what going on a canal was like. Obviously slightly different as it was technically their own boat, but the idea is sound. I would far rather that as many CRT employees as possible had an understanding of what it is that they are ultimately responsible for. They will all, at times, have decisions to make about what to prioritise (even the payroll administrator) and if that relates to their experience with boats it is more likely to be positive for the boating user. Alec

Some very sound advice has been given. Assuming you go ahead, a couple of comments to add. 1. Have you considered where you want to moor? I suggest looking at a canal map, finding marinas in the area you are interested in and then looking at how far you can go from there with what sized boat. There are compromises to be made on size vs. range, but it sounds like you are less worried about travelling. The one point I would echo is to make sure that you can get your chosen sized boat from its mooring to a boatyard (and that you can also turn it round fairly easily). 2. If you are set on starting out with your own boat to your own design, have you considered having a conversion done rather than building from scratch? Try this for example: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Liveaboard-barge-/185042584761?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0 (linked from the historic vessels for sale thread). Personally, I wouldn't overplate. I would gut it back to bare metal (not far from where it is anyway), have the hull repaired by letting in plates where needed and get the cabin windows changed to your preference at the same time, along with any other openings needed, and then have it gritblasted and epoxy coated inside and out. At that point, it is effectively as good as a new hull and better than many. Spray foam insulation and you are ready for the fit-out of your choice. The advantages something like this gives are that it swims better being designed for the job, the work needed can be undertaken by a much wider range of boatyards so it doesn't then have the long delay. You could get the work done on the Trent for example and then bring it across by road or water. 3. Final comment, building on what has been said above. On the principle of 'try before you buy' I would hire something for a month at Christmas. Boats are more available then so longer hiring periods at favourable prices is an option and it also gives you a sense of winter on the boat, rather than the idyllic summer days. I don't think it overly matters what you hire, or where. The point is to get a sense of the lifestyle and, by comparison, what you do/don't like about the boat you hire which can then inform your own design decisions. Alec

Yes, inch and a quarter is complete overkill, particularly when you consider that it only has a single pawl on the ratchet which I reckon would be the weak link in the system, I suspect it is simply a case of relatively early designs having not really sorted out the details at the time when they were made. Either that or the part I have got hold of comes off some giant ship's engine but the 2" bore suggests not. While I have the current drive arrangement in place, I am planning to run the chain right down to the driveshaft where it passes through the box as I don't currently have the upper drive spindle. If the bits for the upper spindle turn up rapidly then I may change that plan. That does mean that I am not working to an as-designed distance, and my lower chainwheel will be the modified Gardner part so that won't have the original diameter either. As such, I could be the best part of a link out, but on half inch pitch that won't be much and the chain should stay engaged - as you say, it isn't going to be stressed very highly. Alec

Cheers - the Gardner ratchet chainwheel has a 1-1/4" pitch so will definitely need the teeth re-cutting. A finer pitch is useful as even at a whole link out the chain may not be slack enough to need tensioning, which would save some work. Alec

Good point on not needing a high rotation speed - if I can avoid modifying the chain wheel it will definitely make life easier - if you are able to measure the chain pitch that would save waiting until I go back to the boat and poke around in the gearbox to see what I need to do. My thoughts over the chain tensioner are mainly because, unlike the original which was presumably designed around a particular measurement for chain length, I am somewhat stuck with how mine comes out which could be up to just under a link out and hence rather slack. The Gardner unit works on the same principle with centripetal acceleration disengaging the pawl, and of course the upper spindle is still the same so still has the dog clutch intact. Very happy to take pictures as this goes along. It might take a while as the boat and the lathe/mill will never be within 100 miles of one another, but I am determined to get this done! Alec

When viewing adverts, I would expect to see what you have described as something like 'older boat in need of TLC'. That doesn't generate any after-sales obligations if accompanied with 'sold as seen'. 'Project' seems to have become a euphemism for a wreck in need of a total refit. There aren't many 'projects' that show up over £30k. Alec

I'm not sure if these thoughts are helpful, but I am currently undertaking a private purchase of a boat, so coming at this from the other side if you decide to go that way. People need to contact you to make enquiries or arrange a viewing. That means phone, text or email. All of these can be created cheaply on a disposable basis - a cheap pay as you go phone and then don't use it any more; a temporary email address created in minutes. The odds of them banging on the door are negligible, and you are moving anyway! Documents give confidence. Ideally a purchase receipt (appreciating it may have vanished years ago in your case) in which case evidence of longstanding ownership such as datable photographs, paperwork from BW/CRT; evidence of the current licence and BSS, ie how long does it have to run; the most recent hull survey if you have had one. If it looks clean and tidy, it indicates that it has probably been loved and cared for. Slightly faded and aged is a reflection of reality - a new owner may prefer to put their own stamp on the decor and if the price is a bit lower because it is a bit faded, it is easier to justify buying that boat. With the age of it, you are not trying to appeal to the buyer of a brand new shiny boat so a bit of fixing up is to be expected - it doesn't sound like it has deteriorated to the status of 'project' for which read needs totally gutting and re-fitting so I wouldn't describe it as that, just needing some TLC. Taking photos after any cleaning/tidying/dusting gives a better impression! (you would be amazed how many take the photos first). There is no point hiding anything but equally it's worth taking photos of everything - bathroom, galley, bedroom(s) engine bay/room and a full length shot to give a general impression. As well as the photos, a layout plan really helps visualise what you are looking at, even if only hand sketched to approximate scale with dimensions. A description with as many of the fittings listed as possible, ideally with approximate dates, is very useful. E.g. 12V Electrolux washing machine c.2020; central heating from a Webasto diesel heater installed 2015 etc. Also, any equipment which comes with the boat 'boat will come complete with all crockery, cutlery, pots and pans, mooring ropes, 3 windlasses' etc. This clarifies what you are actually getting which saves forgetting to ask and then turning up to your new boat to find you needed to bring mooring ropes and a windlass! Apolloduck is a good place to gauge current prices - they may surprise you. Consider whether you want as much as possible or are pricing to sell quickly, and whether you are fixed and firm or are prepared to negotiate. If your pricing is fair, you can quite reasonably do the former but make that clear in your advert (I am buying at a fixed price, which was clear from the start which saves any false expectations/wasted journeys). There is surprisingly little paperwork required, technically none. However a Bill of Sale can be useful for both parties, alongside a receipt for the money. You can find a template for a Bill of Sale freely available on a web search. That's all I can think of! Alec

Thanks for that - it's beginning to feel like you are dimensioning up most of the gearbox for me! The clutch shaft is slightly smaller than I had originally thought, but that doesn't matter as I will need to machine the parts a bit anyway. In the meantime, the Gardner L starter parts have arrived in the post today and have a starting bore of 2". The chainwheel part has a bronze bush so it will be easy to turn this away and insert a new one to size. The ratchet part which clamps to the shaft is plain bored so a bush will be needed to take it down to size. Since it is not rotating it probably doesn't matter what I make that out of - a piece of steel tube is most likely to come to hand. The chainwheel is definitely wrong, and I think it would be better to get it as close as possible to the top wheel in size to achieve a 1:1 ratio on the starting handle to crankshaft, so I will probably end up turning it down and re-cutting the teeth when I know what the pitch needs to be. I suspect I will need a chain tensioner - I will probably use a flat spring like the Lister JP as it also provides a bit of friction to stop the chain inching round. I am sort of planning for three phases/scenarios. The first phase is to fit this to whatever fixed shaft is currently in place; the second is to fit it to a proper clutch shaft, reinstating the bottom shaft of the box, which may or may not ever be necessary and the third phase is full reinstatement of the original box, which is not likely but would become necessary if there was an issue which prevented ongoing retention of the hydraulic box at some point, such as unavailability of parts (strangely, this is more likely to happen than the inability to keep the engine going!) It's the same line of thinking which leads to thoughts of installing a thermostart - I will generally start on petrol but the ability to get it going in the absence of a magneto and starter motor is appealing. Alec

Thank you for that. A search on flip top oil cups does produce exactly that component. Yours is a particularly neat installation, and of course it gives some extra brass to keep shiny! Alec

Those thermostart reservoirs are a very elegant solution. Can I ask, do you have a source for them? Alec

Yes - agree you shouldn't generally re-size oilite bushes. I would prefer not to but 2-1/8" does not seem to be available. I should of course use leaded bronze and cut oilways into it, but oilite is so much nicer to machine! In the end I think it will come down to how much pain I can withstand in the machining process. Alec

Thanks, that gives me everything I need I think. The crankshaft itself was not modified, although there will be some form of coupling on there to rigidly connect to the driveshaft for the pump, but that is an extension shaft anyway so can be changed if necessary. In case you (or anyone else) is interested in what I am actually trying to do here - the position is that the removal of the gearbox internals means I do not have a hand start. The electric start works fine, but on a boat which is not used continuously it is very annoying to turn up to flat batteries and have to lug them a mile up a towpath to get them charged. It also has an elderly starter-motor, so again, although in good condition and recently overhauled, if it fails at some point it will not be a quick fix. Additionally, I find it very useful to be able to slowly turn an engine over by hand to listen for the creak of the injectors if there is a fuelling issue, adjust valves etc. In the longer term, I will try to find/make all the bits to put the gearbox back together (have now downloaded the relevant drawings), even if they are not immediately fitted, as that gives me more options. In the meantime, I need a long-term interim solution. Looking at the ratchet and pawl hand start on engines such as a Lister JP2, they are a very simple configuration which would fit on the output shaft. They would require some parts made as they fit to the flywheel so a boss locked to the shaft is needed to replace this. However, it turns out that the Gardner L series hand start ratchet and chainwheel works on the same principle and is an independent unit that locks to the crankshaft, so the dimension questions were to establish whether it would fit. Handedness is not an issue, as there is enough length to allow it to be fitted to the shaft either way around, so long as I can slide it to the right position that the upper chainwheel (which is still in place) aligns vertically above it. I am not likely to be lucky enough that the Gardner chainwheel is a perfect fit (and it looks the wrong type anyway) but this is not a fast running item as it only turns when hand cranking. That gives me options of modifying the chainwheel on a mill (may be possible) or skimming it off completely and bolting the right pitch chainwheel on. Once done, all I need is a collar the other side to stop the ratchet from sliding down the shaft. There is no lateral force when starting so simple collars with locking bolts will do it. The Gardner L unit has a 2" bore, with an inserted bronze bearing. I will have to look at whether it can stand to lose 1/16 off the face and if not I will need to find some material to turn up to make it, but Bearing Boys have oilite bushes in 2" ID, 2-1/4" OD and 1/16" residual wall thickness would be plenty for this. So that's the plan! Alec

Thanks, that's perfect. If I'm reading you correctly, I can work comfortably within an envelope of 8" diameter x 8" long within the box along the axis of the shaft? That should give me plenty of room to do what I am trying to achieve. I have found your drawings on Mike Skyner's site and they download fine. The shaft diameter through the gearcase bush is 2-1/8". Is that going to be the largest diameter on the shaft or is it stepped down where it goes through this (drawing in the K parts list suggested it might be)? I wondered whether the whitemetal bearing diameter may be larger, but that is not on Mike Skyner's site. It all looks very promising at the moment. Alec

Thanks for that - would be most kind of you. Bear in mind I don't actually have these bits in my gearbox (various missing bits due to the previous conversion) so I am working from a K spares list for part names. If I'm reading it correctly, ahead is engaged by an inner cone fixed to the end of the crankshaft being engaged with an outer cone attached to the clutch shaft which passes through the box front to back, on the axis of the crankshaft (not worried about what happens further astern than that at this point). It's this clutch shaft I am interested in the diameter of, as opposed to the shaft which comes into play for reverse positioned vertically above it, referred to in the spares list as 'upper spindle'. The drawing of the K box parts suggests that the clutch shaft has a major diameter with a couple of features and then steps down at the stern end (for the back bearing?). It's the major diameter I am interested in. Cheers Alec

Crown Wharf is indeed a Joules establishment. It is a new building but done well. A big, cavernous main room of the city centre pub type but with an outdoor deck to watch the boats go by and a few nice nooks and crannies if you want a quiet chat. It felt like somewhere which had been laid out by someone with a good understanding of what makes a decent pub (including the range of good beer!) The Star was my wife's old local when she stayed with her grandparents, but it was shut on a Tuesday evening which was not encouraging. I hadn't been to Stone before (other than passing through on Middlewich Narrowboats boat at Easter in 1998), but I got a good first impression. Alec