agg221

We also have a Refleks (66MK - the small one with the flat top and the viewing window). It does what we need, in that it warms the space up quickly and keeps it dry. It uses around 0.5l of diesel per hour. The only down side is that really they like running continuously so the stop/start use pattern does result in having to clean it out more often. Alec

The archives of the Canal and River Trust might be useful: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/things-to-do/canal-history/the-waterways-archive They hold drawings of various structures, including locks. The index is searchable online and the archivists can be very helpful in sending photographs of the items they hold, if not already digitised. Alec

The point has been made a few times about why buy a boat which needs work? I think it comes down to mindset. To use an analogy with cars, some people will buy a new one every couple of years, go with whatever meets their primary needs and not care too much about the details as they will only have it for a short time anyway. Others put a lot of time and effort into getting something they really want, down to the last detail of trim and specification. These people have invested a lot more and hence usually keep their cars a lot longer. The same appears to be true of boats but, being more bespoke, the’perfect’ boat is less likely to turn up so to get what you really want is going to take work somewhere. You are then balancing the cost and effort of type of work needed. This is very difficult to do, particularly without experience. E.g how can someone who is new to boats compare the time and cost of re-plating a stern end on a boat with the fit-out they want with the time and cost of ripping out and re-fitting a galley, dining area and saloon which doesn’t meet their needs in a hull which is sound? I think this consistent difference of opinion perhaps explains the difference in approach. Alec

Definitely a neater job when done the way @David Mack has illustrated, but as mentioned it does depend on access. Alec

This should be a very interesting project, particularly as a parallel to the recently rebuilt Ash. A couple of thoughts/observations in case they are useful. 1. If the knees are thinning across a relatively small area around the bend, it may be worth considering pad welding over the surface rather than cutting out. Yes, the corrosion is likely to be mainly from behind and the pad would be mostly on top but if it won't be too visible it could potentially achieve the desired result with less loss of the original fabric. Dressing off the surface of a pad weld can be done neatly and the curve blended in. 2. The use of wood plugs - pretty much all wood has the same expansion and contraction, give or take. There is more change with moisture uptake than with heat, so it doesn't matter which wood you use for plugs, although you are likely to have convenient offcuts and at least they will match for grain and colour. Tar is very difficult to obtain and really you would want a blend of tar and pitch to try and get it to not crack in winter but not melt and run in summer - not easy. An alternative which is still obtainable is Jeffery's No.2 marine glue which is still obtainable and very good for this job. You will also inevitably have gaps between gunwhale sections and the odd crack which happens in the wood. We have started sealing these up with Captain Tolley's creeping crack cure - will advise on how that works out, but it is very quick to do and hence easy to repeat if needed. So far it has worked but it is early days. Alec

I'm with Tony on this. So that everyone is on the same page, I have marked up your drawing with what I would call each of the areas - other names get used in different boatyards or parts of the country. With reference to the named parts, is it just the base plate which is being considered for replacement? If so, that is relatively minor. Re-plating is directly equivalent to the original build if done properly, so there is no loss of value. The standard construction of canal boats for a long time was 10/6/4 (base, sides cabin, thickness in mm). Earlier it had been 6/6/4, well actually 1/4" probably. If you replace the base plate in 10mm plate rather than overplating it will be completely back to as built. Whilst you are at it, if corrosion is pretty much internal, I would expect it to have gone a bit up the side plates too, so the bottom of the lower side plates need considering. The swim plate normally corrodes from the outside and it is usually possible to see what's going on with the inside. The other parts which often get neglected for painting and general maintenance are the weed hatch access and the rudder tube. These want careful inspection as if they corrode through the boat sinks. If your surveyor has done a good job they will have been inspected, but they are areas I would specifically ask about. I have marked an area with a red oval because I don't like the look of it. It could be purely superficial in which case no issues but it's somewhere I would be paying close attention to. I would also be having a good check to see that the guard irons are fully welded top and bottom because if you are beginning to see a bit of corrosion in the side plate at that region, it will be much worse behind the guard irons unless they are sealed. Hope this helps. I do not claim to be an expert and others are likely to be able to chip in with a lot more knowledge than me. It is certainly not designed to put you off a boat that you like - doing a bit of welding becomes something on an inevitability as boats age, particularly if they are used as the baseplate can wear as much as it corrodes. If this is a boat you are going to keep, I would be inclined to have the whole thing blasted off, any deep pitting filled by welding and then paint with epoxy, including the baseplate. It will stop the outside from getting materially worse through corrosion and give a good long interval between painting. If you do decide that you want to do more than just the repairs identified by the surveyor (e.g. blast cleaning, remedial welding if any is needed, epoxy etc) then it will be more cost-effective to do it all at once. On that basis, I would get a quote for the repair work identified by the surveyor, get the price reduced by that much and then add in the rest on top (get the quote at the same time but it isn't really part of the purchase price to have that work done). Alec

I know Canal World is a discussion forum, and I know thread drift is inevitable (and I participate in it) but that usually happens after the original posting has been addressed. Can I suggest that the disagreements between various posters which are now spreading onto this thread remain on the threads they are currently occupying? The original offer made could be a really interesting opportunity for someone. Maybe someone who lives aboard and continuously cruises fancies a holiday and likes the fact that they don't have to take a mooring while they do, maybe a leisure boater who enjoys boating but fancies a different sort of holiday. To the OP - do you have any particular parts of the country in mind? Also, does the 'swap' need to be simultaneous (ie maybe you would like to borrow a boat in June but would be happy to reciprocate with the van in August?) Cheers Alec edited to add that I can see the appeal but it wouldn't work for us - partly because there are four of us and secondly because I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to borrow our boat. No risk of anyone stealing it though - the pitting on the hull is as unique as a fingerprint, although if someone does want to steal it and weld all the pits up they are welcome; I promise not to come looking for it until they have finished repairing it!

Because it's best to store your paint that way up to stop it forming a skin? Alec

An interesting question, with an answer in two parts, the first of which I went away to find out the answer to. First part: There are two types of polyurethane - water based and oil based. Oil based polyurethane can be overcoated with epoxy and forms a good bond so long as the surface is well abraded first (normal preparation) but water based cannot. Most boat paints will be oil based. That means the full recoat could be done by simply overpainting the whole with a coat of epoxy and then a coat of polyurethane again with no problems. Second part: Polyurethane is not a good primer on steel, particularly when rusty. That means the touch up stage would depend on the degree of abrasion. If it only went through the polyurethane then touching up with more polyurethane would be fine, however if it goes through to the steel and particularly if it starts to show rust, a surface tolerant epoxy would be needed as a primer before overcoating with polyurethane so you would need to carry both types of paint. I think for simplicity I would prefer to either accept the chalking of a standard amine cured epoxy or to use a polysiloxane epoxy as a topcoat above the waterline as that can be touched in regardless of how far through it gets abraded (just wouldn't use it for the base coats on cost grounds). Alec

I disagree - your boat is extremely modern! Alec (Oates - built circa 1840s) A more useful comment for the OP. Epoxy is the best primer for avoiding rust breakthrough. It is nominally only available for trade use but in practice is still easily available in a wide range of colours. If you select a surface tolerant epoxy then it can be applied to a damp surface (some can even be applied underwater) and the likelihood of breakthrough of rust is fairly minimal. It will chalk eventually but that is mainly because it is not particularly UV stable so over the winter would not be an issue. It's still worth doing the best preparation you can - knotted type wire wheels on an angle grinder are pretty good, and it's worth doing two coats as it deals with holidays (pinholes in the coating) and missed bits. It should then hold up fine until the weather is good enough for a topcoat.

Yes, unfortunately so. I hear the Combermere is now open again under much better management? Alec

True. I was struggling for an explanation of the symptoms here. That would cover it. Alec

Reading between the lines, I get the impression that the OP is travelling to/from the boat by car. If so, unless you have already done this, or disposed of the original batteries, I would take them home and stick them on a trickle charger to see if they will come back to life - sometimes you can be lucky. Something which occurs to me. If I am reading this correctly, on the initial pick-up trip the 12V electrics worked perfectly, both when the engine was running and when it wasn't. With the new batteries, the electrics now only work when the engine is running. The normal connection route goes alternator to batteries to electrical system, so electricity is not getting out of the batteries into the system. A photograph of these connections would be useful as it would show whether it was possible to completely bypass a bad terminal connection or not, but the other thing to check - are the batteries installed the right way round? Alec

Thanks Peter, that does sound fairly promising, and good to hear that Mike has headed off to do what he wants to do. When Oates makes it back into the water we will have to head by, stoppages permitting. Alec

I note that Mike Ager (former landlord of The Shroppie Fly) made his last post on Facebook on the 22nd September, which was a re-post of a post from Audlem Life and the new owners (Mark and Helena) announced that they had taken over on the 24th September. Mike does not appear to have said goodbye anywhere obvious. The public pages on Facebook are still in place but the pub's own page was taken down very recently, after the new owners had posted the new menu etc. Not sure whose page that was. The new company which runs The Shroppie Fly was registered on the 28th August (Mark Tilston being the director/owner and presumably the 'Mark' of 'Mark and Helena'), so the transition must have been planned. https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/15922362 I wonder if @Hastings can fill in any further information? Ultimately, success will come down to being friendly and welcoming, serving good food and beer, and having a sensible contract in place. It did look like that was where things were heading, and the pub was busy for a while at least (haven't been there since Easter myself) so it looks like it is viable. Alec

How close either side is there an inspection hatch? I always have a nagging doubt with bathrooms and sealed floors that something nasty may be going on underneath due to the presence of so much plumbing. If there is a hatch fairly close either side and you can poke a cheap endoscope down there to have a look, that should confirm there is no damp and it's just a bit loose, in which case I think I would probably live with it. When you finally do replace the floor, I would be inclined to do it in such a way that the vinyl can be lifted to inspect what is going on easily. Btw, I very much like your current floor - I will have to keep a lookout for those tiles. Alec

You certainly wouldn't use PPG PSX 700 all over and for all coats. If anyone was to use it, it would be as a final coat above the waterline - fully compatible with other epoxies over and under it so no difficulty with pre- or post- coating (and no, I don't have shares in them, but I have used some which I got hold of as surplus from a project). Jotun 90, Hempadur etc. are all pretty much the same so it's usually about which is most cost-effective at the time. Ours is currently having weld repairs undertaken (pad welding to fill pits) and once done I am contemplating using Chemco 500M if the price is still reasonable as it should add a bit more abrasion resistance, but otherwise it will probably be Hempadur. If I do use any PPG PSX 700 it will only be above the waterline. Best of luck with the survey! Alec

Yes - that's exactly the point I was making. Some people overcoat bitumen or polyurethane onto the epoxy to retain the cosmetic finish, which it does, but then it makes it a lot more difficult to repaint the epoxy afterwards. Alec

Slightly late to this but the answer lies in the chemistry of the paint. As has been mentioned, there are several paint types other than epoxies which are far less prone to chalking (it's the epoxy itself which goes chalky, not the pigment). Overcoating the epoxy with a 2-pack polyurethane or even conventional bitumen blacking above the waterline will retain its finish for a lot longer. The issue with both is that, since the hull inevitably gets scraped, maintenance is a lot more difficult. The reason the epoxy chalks is gradual breakdown of the chemical bonds in the paint. These are formed in most epoxies by curing with an amine, which is why the hardener has that slightly fishy smell. A more recent development is polysiloxane cured epoxies which are far more stable against degradation by light. They are now quite well proven in the offshore oil and gas industry, however, in the conservative world of boatbuilding they have not yet taken off. That also means they are still only available in large containers so are difficult to obtain in the right quantity to just paint the topsides. With this type of paint, further coats can be made with any type of epoxy with the same preparation method as would be needed anyway. The only option I have found which is available in the UK and definitely a polysiloxane cured epoxy is PPG PSX 700. It is not a cheap option! Alec

I disagree. I think they are trying to do something really rather interesting, but not necessarily going about it the best way. There is a global shift at the moment in terms of energy. It really isn't clear how it is going to drop out eventually, but two factors which are pretty clear are a significant reduction in the use of oil as a fuel and an increase in the cost of energy. Those who have oil are therefore less likely to be selling it for fuel, but they will still be extracting it and that means selling it into the petrochemical and plastics industries instead. You can see the direction of travel here: https://www.non-metallic.com/ (look at who the funders are if you want to see how serious they are about it) Unsurprisingly, since the oil industry is involved, their first target is oil pipelines - cutting their own costs is the priority. However, the development work on thermoplastic composite materials which this is driving is significant. Production costs are dropping rapidly and performance is increasing. You describe steel and wood as 'perfectly successful' and, to an extent, I agree. However, both materials have significant down-sides too. Just look at how many wooden boats remain/are being built to see how the drawbacks to wood are currently affecting its selection as a material (despite being sustainable etc). Cost, skilled labour hours and lack of durability are the main issues, together with the current absence of good preservatives to extend life. Steel isn't bad and ever-improving coating systems are extending life significantly, plus it can be recycled at end of life in a cradle to cradle loop, but it still has down-sides including the need for maintenance and, increasingly, the energy cost of manufacture will only go up. It's certainly an increasing concern. In practice, current boat construction is already a composite sandwich to make it habitable - steel/insulation/lining. It's not that much of a stretch to consider composite panels being made. Thermoplastic composites are also much easier to form into complex shapes than steel - the sheet itself can be laid up in sections, formed and welded. This opens up more opportunities around design and cost-effective fabrication. The speed of fabrication is also notably higher - you can manually weld 6mm thick HDPE at over a metre a minute and at much lower energy input. Exactly what design this drops out as, in what configuration, is entirely undetermined. It probably isn't a simple slab construction with an internal steel frame. However, just like cars which have progressed from steel to increasingly composite construction, as the materials become more available at lower cost it is inevitable that people will look for ways to use them. Personally, given the amount pit welding we are currently undergoing and the remedial action that will necessitate internally to the insulation, I rather like the idea of a HDPE boat which can be repaired at much lower temperatures, probably by me with the appropriate hot air tool! Alec

On mine, the carbon monoxide alarm goes off in about 2mins, which is not surprising as it is equivalent to leaving a bucket of smouldering ash on the boat. I could take the battery out of the alarm but I am not inclined to do so and hope it has dispersed by the time I next come back, not least because if there is a problem the next person on the boat may not be me. Alec

Like everything in life, and particularly boating, there are pros and cons. We have a Refleks at one end of the boat and an Epping Stove (old school solid fuel) at the other. It's a leisure use boat, all year round (stoppages permitting) and gets used for single days, weekends and a week or so at a time. Sometimes it's just me, particularly for single nights, mostly it's just me. The Refleks is more expensive to run, but if left set up I can turn up after dark on a February evening when it's -10C and have the Refleks lit in 10mins, the boat warm enough to take my coat off in 20mins. In the morning when I am heading off, I can turn off the stove and leave it. The solid fuel stove is feels much more in keeping, smells right and is good for cooking and boiling the kettle. Being in the traditional location just inside the back cabin it keeps my legs warm when steering in hail/sleet/driving rain. However, I need to make sure it goes out on the last night on board and I need to allow extra time in the morning to take the ash out and make sure it is properly out so that I can take off the chimney and cap the flue to stop water getting in or condensation forming in the chimney and dropping down to rot out the top plate. I probably curse the Refleks more, but I wouldn't actually want to change either. Alec

Having had a look at flexural modulus values I am not sure your figures are quite right. White pine is around 7.8GPa and whilst unfilled HDPE is around 0.85GPa (~9x less stiff) a conventional chopped glass fibre filled HDPE is around 6GPa at 40% loading. That's probably close enough to design around HDPE as equivalent to wood. @stagedamager - how about having a go at a filled HDPE replica when you are done with Norway? It welds nicely and very fast! Alec

This is not a problem I regularly find myself worrying about in my round bottomed boat. What is the relative stiffness of HDPE cf. pitch pine? I wonder whether steel is the wrong frame of reference and actually HDPE should be considered with reference to wooden boat construction, which seems to have worked well enough for a couple of centuries. Alec

I get the difference between leverage and balance. I suspect I wasn't clear enough in my question - what I was trying to ascertain is the root cause of the gates installed on the K&A and the Lee being perceived as heavy. The balance beams are shorter than designed, but is the 'heaviness' (ie higher level of force required for operation than anticipated) purely due to reduced leverage or because with the beams being shorter the gates are not properly balanced, or is it a combination? I ask because leverage can't really be fixed now but balance potentially could be. Alec