agg221

Yes, it is. There are ways to keep the costs down, or the time, but not both! However, I can also say that it is really satisfying work. There is a lot more craft to it than a steel boat I think. However, I wouldn't do one alone again. Alec

Would that be me? 🙂

I do fancy taking Oates through the tunnel at some point. I'm sure it will fit, although I haven't officially tried it yet. It doesn't seem to be particularly easy to book for it at the moment. Alec

Seconded. We did a similar route in 2019 - down from Penkridge to Stourport, down the Severn, across the Droitwich and up Tardebigge (moored 5 locks up and walked back down to the Queen's Head), up into Birmingham, across to the BCLM, then down the 21 and back to Penkridge. This was with two adults and two children who were 8 and 10 at the time. This included half a day at BCLM, a trip to Cadbury World (wouldn't bother without small children - not like it was 25yrs ago) and a trip to the art gallery in Wolverhampton which is very good (and free). Slightly different route from what you are planning but a similar distance. We did not stop for lunch very much if at all but would have had time to do so if we hadn't wanted to fit in the visits. One thing to bear in mind, the Severn can occasionally become impassably high and fast flowing at any time of year so I would have a back-up plan in mind (I had a summer holiday route affected by it one August). It's a good idea to do the ring the way round you are planning to get past the Severn if the weather is with you, but if not you could reverse it if the weather is forecast to be improving, or to consider where else you might want to go if there is no chance of going that way. Lots of options there, depending on your preferences. Alec

Can I offer an opinion here, building slightly on Derek R's point. With historic boats, particularly idiosyncratic ones, you buy them because -you- love them for their idiosyncrasies. There are not likely to be as many people who do, as they are not vanilla (or should that be London white) liveaboards. The characteristics which make Equus what it is will suit somebody but not others. There are many things which will put people off. It needs work on the interior (depending on your perspective) and may need some hull repairs. You may want to change the interior layout. All this makes the total cost and complexity per foot of boat greater than buying a 15yr old complete boat which mostly fits your needs from a middle of the road builder. You either look at the long term picture which says 'yes, but when it's done I get something I love' or you say 'you know what, I like the idea but the reality is that I want an easier life'. We jumped in with both feet and bought one of the oldest surviving boats, with excessively deep draft and a tendency to roll. All of these features put a lot of buyers off but we look at them as entertaining. It would perhaps be a more entertaining experience overall if the engine consistently got us from A to B without breaking down at some point on the journey but we live in hope for that one. With regard to the original topic, five of the six original iron BCN iceboats survive, built between c.1830 and 1850. Oates (c.1850) is built from Mon Moor Best wrought iron plate, from the Mon Moor iron works near Wolverhampton. I am not aware of anyone having looked for markings on the other five. The slightly later one (Empress, 1860) may also survive - interestingly as per the Elland referenced above it also ended up as a mud hopper, last seen being used by the Coventry Canal Society for the purpose in the 1970s, after which it vanished. I would guess it may still be about so if anyone runs across a converted iceboat I am always interested to know their whereabouts. Alec

Our engine failed on the way back from Ellesmere Port last week (the coolant return pipe fitting vibrated itself off and dumped all the coolant in the bilge). We were travelling with another boat which was behind at the time, so I pulled us over to the side at the next bridge hole, tied a loop on the end of the bow rope which is about 20' long and hooked it on to the stern stud of the other boat as it went past. Our boat was originally horsedrawn, now with a counter conversion but the original stern post below the counter level. It now only has a standard sized rudder. I was surprised at just how easily it towed and steered - not much slower either. We made it round the turn and over the aqueduct at Nantwich for example, with no problems at all. In some respects it was more compliant on steering than it is when powered. Wife and younger daughter managed to locate the nut and bolt in the bilge, wife cut a new gasket, bolted it all up and re-filled the coolant system and we were back under power by the time we left Hack Green, which was good because the wind up there was so strong it would nearly stop you dead in bridge holes and there were breaking waves on the water! Alec

It gets a bit more difficult when they haven't owned it for long. Some people do buy boats and fairly rapidly decide it's not for them. It's another good thought though - there is no absolute about this; the aim is to give yourself enough confidence that you are making a legitimate purchase and that is usually through a body of evidence more than a single piece of information. The point was well made above that there is far more uncertainty over condition than over title. Even a survey may not pick this up entirely, and in a fast moving, rising market a survey can be a difficult thing to get, as someone else may well buy the boat you want without one before you get the chance. I don't think the market has really worked out a way around managing this risk. Alec

The Anchor is Caunsall is famed for its cobs. It was a few years since we were there so can't vouch for current quality but they were very nice then. The Mermaid in Wightwick was excellent for an evening meal. A pleasant stroll down the locks and then over to the pub. Alec

Assuming that a few friends turning up to visit the person who currently has the original gearbox is for some reason not an option, if Richard can't help there is an outside chance that I might have a suitable gearbox (Richard is likely to be the better option because he actually knows what he has and whether it will fit and I don't). I have a couple of boxes which I believe were made by Morris, and I believe from another thread on here that these were fitted to PH2s. If they are needed I can drag them out of the shed and someone may be able to confirm whether they are actually what I was told they were and whether they would fit. There are a lot of conditionals in that statement but happy to dig them out later if needed. Alec

Thanks All for the thoughts, Nigel in particular for the detailed diagnostic instructions. I will have a play next time I am there and hopefully resolve the issue. It's reassuring that stalling the engine under those circumstances is predictable. Yes, it is a ridiculously large alternator (I believe it is indeed a Leece Neville). I have no idea why it is fitted, but it was there when we bought the boat and there hasn't seemed to be much point in replacing it since it works fine with appropriate care, just need to ensure that the alternator is left switched off until the revs are raised or the surface charge has recovered on the starter battery - this is not the kind of boat and engine where you just get on and go, so adding another item to the mental list of operating instructions is fine. To confirm, yes it is a split charge system. It is very unsophisticated, just using a split charge relay, but I like to keep things simple. To be honest, I would be quite happy with no electrics and am reinstating the hand start but my daughters (12 and 14) would mutiny if there was no phone charger and my wife says a water can is not an acceptable domestic water system so the electrics will have to stay. I will content myself with the business trips where I use the boat as an overnight base and don't turn on the electricity at all, just light the oil lamp and a stove and I'm fine. Alec

For me, this is a key point if you either want a very specific boat or are in a fast-moving market. A lot of good advice has been given around finding out about the seller. When we bought ours there were certainly aspects which made us uneasy. We broke it down into a series of questions: - Does the seller own the boat? - Do they have the right to sell it? - Is there money or something else owing for which we will become liable? - If we hand over the money, will it be acknowledged that it has been received? - Will we ultimately get the boat? We addressed each of these so far as we could. We had a name for the seller, he said what he did for a living and we tracked him down online. We completed a bill of sale which required an address - that made him findable on Google maps - the house existed. We also had enough information to locate him on Facebook, which brought up relatives including his wife and granddaughter who he had mentioned. We identified his wife and found out where she worked. It all added up - we knew who we were dealing with. We knew where the boat had been. That made a link which was able to confirm. It also confirmed that his family didn't like the boat and he had the choice between selling it and a divorce. That confirmed the reason for sale (which did not match what he had told us). A simplified form of the RYA bill of sale gave confirmation that any issues pre-dating the purchase (including secured loans) remained the seller's problem and anything arising after the purchase was our problem. We ran a small transaction as a deposit which confirmed receipt - the account worked, the number was valid and making a greater BACS payment to the same account could not be denied to have been received (if it came to it, the bank could confirm all payments were to the same account) and the receipt for the original payment confirmed it was the correct account. We turned up as quickly as possible after payment, swapped over the padlock and moved the boat. It didn't go far, but far enough to be not obvious where it was (although in practice that didn't work as it pulled its mooring spikes and got posted on Facebook!) Yes, there were still some issues. We were right to be suspicious and not take anything on trust, but the issues are comparatively minor and do not affect title, rather they were petty annoyances. We didn't get scammed, we did lose a bit (things removed from the boat which were verbally stated to be part of the sale) and some of the items which should have been in working order were not. However, this was the right boat for us, so this was part of the accepted risk. Alec

We had some electrical issues on the way back from Ellesmere Port and I would be interested in people's thoughts on what may be wrong and how I might check it. I am now back from the boat so it will be a few weeks before I can action anything, but I want to go in prepared. The engine is a Kelvin J2 which usually runs with the petrol start, so low compression and only needs a single rotation to fire up, ie very short draw from the starter battery and a relatively low current. It has a 12V CAV BS5 starter motor which is capable of drawing up to 930A. The battery is a few months old, 900CCA and a decent make (Exide I think). It has not been abused. We have a single alternator - 160A/12V which charges both the domestic and starter batteries. We can monitor voltage on the domestic batteries. We always start with the alternator switched off as it won't start on petrol with it on. The run up to the Port went fine - say 18hrs cruising. Whilst there, we started twice and ran for 3hrs and 1hr respectively. On the way back we ran for 10hrs the first day and were 6hrs in to the second day when we had the issue, so I would expect the starter battery to be well charged. We had stopped for an hour. The engine was still very warm so I ran a hot start on diesel. I decompressed both cylinders through the petrol chamber and primer valve and cranked it over, then compressed the first cylinder by changing over the petrol valve and it fired straight up. I compressed the second cylinder and it ran fine, at fast tickover, so I switched on the alternator and it stalled. I tried again immediately with the same result. There was then insufficient charge in the battery to turn it over full compression so I switched to a petrol start which caused other issues but after allowing a bit of time for surface charge recovery I could get it to fire up and rapidly cross to diesel, following which I ran for 10mins with the alternator off and did not turn it on until the revs were increased for cruising. Dropping the revs again did not cause an issue. The charging voltage on the domestic batteries read 14.2V, dropping back to 12.85 when the engine was turned off. Both these figures have been consistent for over a year. I therefore have two questions: 1. What might be going on with the alternator? 2. With a battery of that size I would expect to be able to crank the engine over for an extended period (even if it won't start). How do I check whether it is an issue with charging, cables or starter motor, or am I expecting too much of it? Cheers Alec

I know this isn't the original question, but is the whereabouts of the original gearbox still known? If so, might there be ways of recovering it? Alec

I think the OP rejected wooden (although Progress should be in good condition for a wooden boat). I wondered about Equus but again, too long I think. Alec

I wonder whether that may have been a Mr Lipscombe or a Mr Hessey, collectively Lipscombe Hessey, marine engineers of Eton Wick? Alec

Vanguard looks the most likely. The only other 1911 composite steamer is Victory which is still around but not sure what engine it has in it currently? Alec

I think I would go for Tectyl 506 rather than Waxoyl if I could get it (seems to be a shortage of stock). It forms a better dry wax film which is less likely to melt and run in summer when the cabin gets hot and it smells far less strongly once the solvent has evaporated. Alec

If it used undepleted DU then that could provide the electricity for the propulsion... Alec

There is also the factor of time. The discussion has centred on primarily on the canal age onwards, but if you consider river navigations in particular, the process of improvement can actually reduce the facility for occasional upstream navigation. The Suffolk/Essex Stour for example had a head of navigation in the modern era at Sudbury. However, before it was improved by the construction of locks, the occasional coincidence of heavy rain on a spring tide would allow the water level to rise sufficiently for navigation well upstream. The head of navigation in Roman times is reputed to have been at the edge of my land, with some evidence to that effect from a few hundred yards downstream. I am sure the same effect would have been experienced on other rivers. In a similar vein, the whole of the fens have altered completely through drainage, creating and removing navigation routes in the process. I would guess the same would apply on a smaller scale in other coastal marshy areas (the Isle of Grain is, for example, no longer an island). Alec

I wasn't thinking of it so much as being a business opportunity, more a lower cost way to undertake the next stage of development to do a re-cabin than build a complete hull. Costs have not yet been mentioned, which would be interesting, but it might be viable. Alec

That might be useful. Actually, borrowing quite a lot from wooden canal boat design might be a good idea in general (the ribs already are for example) as there are some similarities in properties between wood and HDPE. Other potentially useful things to borrow would be the use of a thin, sacrificial steel shoe plate where the sides and base meet and possibly steel rubbing strips and ice plates at the bow. With regard to the question of how to attach ribs/frames - that one is relatively straightforward. HDPE does weld easily so you can add either a full HDPE rib or a low attachment rib/series of lugs to which you can mechanically fasten a steel rib. One direction which has been alluded to above which might be a useful halfway house is the use of HDPE for cabins. Wooden cabins do have quite a few advantages, e.g. keeping the centre of gravity lower and reducing condensation. They are also better for sound deadening. However, they are quite difficult to keep sealed between the boards, fairly high maintenance and do rot through easily if damage goes unnoticed or is not rapidly repaired. HDPE might add the advantages of wood without the drawbacks. It does need a proper upstand lip all the way around just inside the gunwhales for attachment but if that was done I can imagine this could be quite a useful approach. It might, for example, have been a good option for Oates if it was reasonably cost-effective. Oates had its wooden cabin replaced with steel, but to keep it stable the weight had to be kept down. That has meant thin steel and I can't add any high level storage. I would have had more options with welded HDPE panels. There are still a few 1970s boats about with wooden tops which now need replacement so I can imagine there are some good opportunities to try this if it is reasonably cost-effective. Alec

Vinyl wrap does. Other things can stick well enough for a coating, just not well enough to carry a load. The Arrival vans needed a solution to provide signwriting, which works satisfactorily it appears. Alec

It's an interesting concept. A couple of comments. Welding is very easy with HDPE. It's much easier, safer and less energy intensive than welding steel. As has been commented on, adhesives stick very poorly to it, but it is simple to weld angled braces and lugs on so it should be straightforward to create a stiff structure with mounting points which can be screwed in to. It should be sufficiently tough and abrasion resistant to give a good service life. I think a design for canals would need suitably placed rubbing strips, in the normal places and probably along the chine. There is no risk of corrosion so these need not be sealed welds, but I think they would be needed as wear plates. The shift away from fossil fuels is leading to oil companies revisiting what they can do with their reserves. Replacing other construction materials with oil-based plastics is an attractive option for them so expect plastics to be developed for such purposes and to be priced attractively. HDPE is reasonably environmentally friendly in that it can be recycled several times in a cradle to cradle process, although it does eventually degrade. Overall, it will be interesting to see how this goes - ballasting will be necessary so there will be a compromise to be made to achieve draft without excessive height to allow headroom over the ballast. I'm not sure how much ballast it will take in practice - more than a standard boat but perhaps not that much - you only need to add the difference in weight between the steel and the HDPE. It should have a nice low centre of gravity though which should make it pretty stable. I particularly like the idea of no blacking. The cabin could also be made self-coloured, as has been done with 'plastic vans' recently https://arrival.com/uk/en/topic/van so no painting at all! Alec

In the end you get a better result if you remove all the rust, but that can be difficult. From the position you are in, I would get a drill-mounted wire brush and go over the surface with that to remove the paint and the surface rust so far as possible, and then paint it with an epoxy primer designed for rusty surfaces. Drill mounted is better than angle grinder mounted because you can periodically reverse it when the wires get bent over, so it always cuts rather than polishing. Epoxy is the best option for paint as it forms the best barrier - being a 2-pack means you do need to mix it and use everything you have mixed, but they are moisture curing and some will cure at very low temperatures so it is about the only paint which will will still work properly in winter. I appreciate that you are short on both time and budget, but it sounds like this has gone rather deep so leaving it would not be a good option, particularly if it is already perforated in some places, as it is going to get worse and you will then have to take out everything you put in, taking even more time and money. Having done this I would agree with the use of a proper foam insulation material. Celotex and Kingspan are much cheaper as seconds boards and the best technique is to stick foil tape on the back face of the edge, sticky side facing out, then fill any gaps between boards with spray foam and trim off, and seal the top with another piece of foil tape. You then have a perfect moisture barrier. If you aren't going over the roof then tape it there too. Foil tape from builders' merchants or online is not expensive and it works way better than anything else - get a wider tape than you think you need as you then don't have to worry about getting something sticky in a perfectly straight line. Alec

We applied for, and were granted, the historic discount for Oates last year. As an iceboat it originally had no cabin - it now has a brand new steel cabin and a tug deck. Points which they were interested in: We absolutely had to have a National Historic Ships registration. We had to provide a decent history file (fortunately I already had more documentation on the boat than anyone else, dating back to the 1970s, including letters to the then owner from BWB confirming its history!) They wanted to confirm that the wooden cabin which was removed was not itself historic (it wasn't as it was not early enough to qualify as historic in its own right and had been replaced in its entirety at at least one point, documented by photographs). I felt it was a pragmatic assessment. The historic point of interest was always the hull which is largely as built, although it did have a counter conversion in the 1970s. There were no concerns from the registering officer. To the OP - it might be worth reviewing who you are insured with. We are required to have a survey every 5yrs and pay a relatively normal insurance premium. There do not appear to be any more restrictions/requirements/costs placed on our 150yr old boat than would be applied to a 25yr old boat. By staying with the same company they even accepted the previous owner's survey which was less than a year old at the time, rather than requiring us to have a new one. The discount is 10%. Alec