stove back boiler central heating install

[agag]

Hi,

 

This is my first post at the forum. I am quite new to all this and I

would appreciate some of the great advice of the collective brain.

 

I did read a few of the relevant posts in this forum, the 'Narrowboat

builders book' section on heating and various calorifier articles

online. I was totally clueless before and now I feel just little bit

less clueless

 

Got this boat recently with a stove for heating and a single coil

calorifier connected to the engine for hot water. I find this setup

not to be entirely suitable for my needs so I am looking to upgrade

it.

 

For this reason I purchased a 4kw Stovax Brunel 1A with a 2kw back

boiler and 28mm connections. I am also looking at replacing the

current calorifier with a twin coil one so I can have both engine and

stove connected. The calorifier could be either vertical or horizontal

with 28mm coil connections as well.

 

My prefered system would be gravity fed if possible. Would like to have

water circulating from the stove to the calorifier and 2kw worth of 3 radiators.

 

There is a drawing of the layout here

(Each square in the drawing is 25cm.)

 

In the current layout the stove sits in the middle of the boat, the

calorifier is at the stern with a radiator (rad 1) between them. I

would like to have 2 more rads aft from the stove positioned in the

bathroom (rad 2) and bedroom (rad 3). The header tank can be

positioned anywhere, although it will be handy to be in the bathroom

or bedroom cupboard.

 

 

In terms of priorities , heating water, the bedroom and bathroom rads

are more important elements, the rad in the galley not so much. Its

more there to make sure that I have enough kw worth of heat

dissipation to avoid boiling. This rad could even be turned off at

times to speed up heating the rest.

 

 

More or less I understand the principals of the thermosyphon but I am

not sure how this will apply here. I was thinking of connecting first

to the calorifier and out of that to the three rads and feed back to

the boiler. The boiler in series and the rads in parallel as I would

think in terms of an electrical circuit (if this makes sense).

 

I am a bit unsure how this could work with 2 rads on one side of the

boiler and the other rad and calorifier on the other.

 

Could I just tee the in and out flows of the boiler to both

directions? This way I could keep the hot feed high on the wall and

the return on the floor. Would this work?

 

Or I have to make a big loop like so:

 

* Hot water leaves the top of the boiler, going up with an angle, along

the gunwales towards the stern and the top calorifier coil input.

 

* Out of the calorifier along the floor, to the first rad (rad 1) with 2 tees and 15mm riser pipes.

 

* Continue past the stove at the same level tee to the small

bathroom (rad 2) and finaly to the bedroom (rad 3) From there return back to

the stove cold inlet.

 

This also does not sound right.. I would have to make a U turn at the end!!

 

 

I hope all this makes some sense and I am looking forward for some feedback!

 

Regards,

 

A

[blackrose]

Getting a thermocycling (convection/gravity) system to circulate through a calorifier can be difficult to achieve unless the calorifier has wide bore coils and is reasonably close to and not below the height of the boiler.

 

 

There is a drawing of the layout here

 

 

How long is this boat? You'll be hard pushed to get a system to thermocycle both ways from the middle of the boat to one end and then the other.

 

My layout is like yours, also thermocycled but without Rad 1 and without the calorifier (on mine that's heated from the engine and immersion/shore power). You won't need Rad 1 because your stove will heat that room directly. As for the calorifier I can't see how that's going to work without a pump - too far away.

Edited October 24, 2012 by blackrose

[agag]

Thanks for the reply,

 

Getting a thermocycling (convection/gravity) system to circulate through a calorifier can be difficult to achieve unless the calorifier has wide bore coils and is reasonably close to and not below the height of the boiler.

 

It will have wide bore coils. The distance from the boiler is 5.5 meters. Im planning to get a vertical one for this reason( the height) but I think is still tight. This is a good point.

 

How long is this boat? You'll be hard pushed to get a system to thermocycle both ways from the middle of the boat to one end and then the other.

The boat is 50ft. 5.5m from calorifier to boiler and 3-4 to far end rad.

 

My layout is like yours (thermocycled) but without Rad 1 and without the calorifier (that's heated from the engine and immersion/shore power. You won't need Rad 1 because your stove will heat that room directly. As for the calorifier I can't see how that's going to work without a pump - too far away.

 

I could have a pump for the cal and gravity for rads 2 + 3. Lets see

[blackrose]

I could have a pump for the cal and gravity for rads 2 + 3. Lets see

 

That's your best bet. Let the system thermocycle naturally through 28mm dia main runs that go above and below Rads 2 and 3, but plumb in Rad 1 and the calorifier using the standard flow & return method with 22mm dia pipes on the floor and a pump.

 

Then you can be sure that the backboiler will never overheat because it can thermocycle through Rads 2 & 3 on its own, and when you want to heat Rad 1 and your calorifier you just switch on the pump and switch it off before you go to bed.

Edited October 24, 2012 by blackrose

[canals are us?]

That's your best bet. Let the system thermocycle naturally through 28mm dia main runs that go above and below Rads 2 and 3, but plumb in Rad 1 and the calorifier using the standard flow & return method with 22mm dia pipes on the floor and a pump.

 

Then you can be sure that the backboiler will never overheat because it can thermocycle through Rads 2 & 3 on its own, and when you want to heat Rad 1 and your calorifier you just switch on the pump and switch it off before you go to bed.

 

This is how I would advice doing it too. Gravity heat the bathroom and bedroom rad and pump the circuit to the rad and calorifier with pipework in 22mm clipped at floor level. I don't think you will need the rad in the salon as the stove would heat this space. I have included it in my scetch but personally I wouldn't install it. If you installed a cylinder stat on the calorifier after cutting a pocket in the insulation and set the temp to 65 degrees this would only operate the pump/rad when the calorifier needed to be heated thus saving power and all automatic or fit pipe stat to activate the pump to heat rad and calorifier as well.

Something like this. The header tank could be nearer the stove if desired. Ignore the fine red line.

 

I'm actually a plumber and plan to do the HETAS course.

Here are various sized rads with the heat outputs. 2KW boiler is basically 2x 500x1100 single convector. Dont forget the rads for the gravity side need to be the 4 tapping rads, ie 4 outlets.

My link

 

James

Edited October 24, 2012 by canals are us?

[smileypete]

I hope all this makes some sense and I am looking forward for some feedback!

How about drawing a diagram, upload to gallery, post a link here.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[agag]

Hi,

 

This is how I would advice doing it too. Gravity heat the bathroom and bedroom rad and pump the circuit to the rad and calorifier with pipework in 22mm clipped at floor level. I don't think you will need the rad in the salon as the stove would heat this space. I have included it in my scetch but personally I wouldn't install it. If you installed a cylinder stat on the calorifier after cutting a pocket in the insulation and set the temp to 65 degrees this would only operate the pump/rad when the calorifier needed to be heated thus saving power and all automatic or fit pipe stat to activate the pump to heat rad and calorifier as well.

 

I dont think I need the rad in the salon either. I just though I should have around 2 Kw of rads and having them all in the other part (bedroom,bath ) was probably a bit excessive. Isn't it essential to have at least 2kw worth of rads?

This hybrid approach seems like the way to go though.

 

Something like this. The header tank could be nearer the stove if desired. Ignore the fine red line.

 

Thanks for this. How do the pumped and gravity circuits split out of the boiler and back in? Is it just a matter of teeing them after the boiler?

 

I'm actually a plumber and plan to do the HETAS course.

Here are various sized rads with the heat outputs. 2KW boiler is basically 2x 500x1100 single convector. Dont forget the rads for the gravity side need to be the 4 tapping rads, ie 4 outlets.

My link

 

James

cheers!

Edited October 24, 2012 by agag

[blackrose]

This is how I would advice doing it too. Gravity heat the bathroom and bedroom rad and pump the circuit to the rad and calorifier with pipework in 22mm clipped at floor level. I don't think you will need the rad in the salon as the stove would heat this space. I have included it in my scetch but personally I wouldn't install it. If you installed a cylinder stat on the calorifier after cutting a pocket in the insulation and set the temp to 65 degrees this would only operate the pump/rad when the calorifier needed to be heated thus saving power and all automatic or fit pipe stat to activate the pump to heat rad and calorifier as well.

Something like this. The header tank could be nearer the stove if desired. Ignore the fine red line.

 

Why does the header tank come off the bottom run rather than just having it T off the top?

 

I dont think I need the rad in the salon either. I just though I should have around 2 Kw of rads and having them all in the other part (bedroom,bath ) was probably a bit excessive. Isn't it essential to have at least 2kw worth of rads?

 

You need to approximately match the rads to the backboiler output but don't forget that the pipework is included as well. I've no idea how to calculate that.

 

Here are various sized rads with the heat outputs. 2KW boiler is basically 2x 500x1100 single convector. Dont forget the rads for the gravity side need to be the 4 tapping rads, ie 4 outlets.

 

But you only use 2 in your diagram? Personally for the last rad on the convection/gravity side I'd use all 4 connections. The final rad on a thermocycling system can sometimes be a problem because it doesn't get as much circulation and doesn't get hot.

Edited October 25, 2012 by blackrose

[Ratty's Retreat]

Why does the header tank come off the bottom run rather than just having it T off the top?

 

 

 

But you only use 2 in your diagram? Personally for the last rad on the convection/gravity side I'd use all 4 connections. The final rad on a thermocycling system can sometimes be a problem because it doesn't get as much circulation and doesn't get hot.

 

Header tank is the cold water feed to the system, so should feed into bottom.

 

Some rads have 4tappings, one at each corner. Others have 2 at the bottom, which are no use for thermosyphon.

 

John.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Ratty's Retreat

[Chris Pink]

Header tank is the cold water feed to the system, so should feed into bottom.

 

John.

 

In that diagram the header tank feed to the bottom is redundant as the adjacent radiator does this.

 

This is how my system is plumbed. I have two gravity loops in configuration like the OP's drawing but it takes some heat to get the whole lot up to heat (8kw stove). I have an automatic bleed in the opposite arm to the header as you need a way of stopping air collecting in this arm. I have a pump but it is never used. I also have a gate valve which isolates one arm but obviously needs to leave the path from boiler to header free.

 

The first thing that struck me about the OP proposition is that 4kw isn't a lot to drive that lot especially with typical boat flue losses.

[agag]

The first thing that struck me about the OP proposition is that 4kw isn't a lot to drive that lot especially with typical boat flue losses.

 

I have read about *similar* setups (like this) with the same stove as the one I got and 2 rads. Not the calorifier though.I have assumed that after the calorifier water is up to temp, it will not take much more energy to keep it hot and the radiators will get all the heat.

 

Isn't a 4kw stove a decent size for a narrowboat of this size anyway.

 

Hope it works because I already bought the stove and boiler. Will have to work around what I have now.

Maybe I need to have some valves so I can run each system individually.

[blackrose]

Header tank is the cold water feed to the system, so should feed into bottom.

 

I see, so it's a proper big header tank with a ballcock? For my system I just have a 2 litre car coolant tank without any cold feed and just top it up as and when required. That's once or twice every winter. Just seems simpler to me.

 

Maybe I need to have some valves so I can run each system individually.

 

If you don't switch on the pump the calorifier won't get hot so you won't need valves on that side to isolate it, but it's a good idea to hvae them anyway in case you need to drain and work on the other side of the system. If you put valves on the thermocycling side make sure they're full bore - and full bore 28mm valves aren't going to come cheap!

 

On the thermocycling side try to give the water the easiest path to circulate. So avoid 90 degree bends for example and use 2 x 135 degree bends instead.

 

I have read about *similar* setups (like this) with the same stove as the one I got and 2 rads. Not the calorifier though.I have assumed that after the calorifier water is up to temp, it will not take much more energy to keep it hot and the radiators will get all the heat.

 

Isn't a 4kw stove a decent size for a narrowboat of this size anyway.

 

Hope it works because I already bought the stove and boiler. Will have to work around what I have now.

Maybe I need to have some valves so I can run each system individually.

 

4kw is big enough for the boat. I think it really depends on whether the backboiler is up to the job. 2kw is about 7000 btu so that's about the same as my backboiler. I think it will work but forget about Rad 1 in your diagram and that will leave more heat for the calorifier.

Edited October 25, 2012 by blackrose

[agag]

If you don't switch on the pump the calorifier won't get hot so you won't need valves on that side to isolate it, but it's a good idea to hvae them anyway in case you need to drain and work on the other side of the system. If you put valves on the thermocycling side make sure they're full bore - and full bore 28mm valves aren't going to come cheap!

 

On the thermocycling side try to give the water the easiest path to circulate. So avoid 90 degree bends for example and use 2 x 135 degree bends instead.

 

The bit that I haven't understood yet is how do I get the boiler hot/cold send to the 2 different sides of the system. I am planning to use plastic pipes after a meter of copper close the boiler as I have read around the forums. So I tee the 28mm copper pipes from the boiler after a meter to 28mm plastic going in one direction and a smaller 22mm pipe to the calorifier? Same for the cold inlet. How is yours done?

 

Shall I just use 28mm throughout or is this going to make the pumped system much more inefficient? (pipe comes in coils of 25 meters and i could do all with one)

 

The 28mm bore valves should go to both cold and hot branches of the thermocycled circuit?

 

 

I am going to make a diagram based on the one posted by James earlier but will have to wait for after work

 

4kw is big enough for the boat. I think it really depends on whether the backboiler is up to the job. 2kw is about 7000 btu so that's about the same as my backboiler. I think it will work but forget about Rad 1 in your diagram and that will leave more heat for the calorifier.

 

I think I will forget the rad on this side and leave the calorifier only.

 

Many questions! Thanks very much for all the help so far. I think I am getting closer.

[blackrose]

The bit that I haven't understood yet is how do I get the boiler hot/cold send to the 2 different sides of the system. I am planning to use plastic pipes after a meter of copper close the boiler as I have read around the forums. So I tee the 28mm copper pipes from the boiler after a meter to 28mm plastic going in one direction and a smaller 22mm pipe to the calorifier? Same for the cold inlet. How is yours done?

 

My backboiler actually has 4 ports. I guess you will have to T off the two sides somewhere?

 

Shall I just use 28mm throughout or is this going to make the pumped system much more inefficient? (pipe comes in coils of 25 meters and i could do all with one)

You're going to use plastic pipe for the thermocycled side of the system? Most people would want exposed pipes to be in copper. They're exposed unless you box them in? I'd just have 22mm for the pumped side because it's easier to use, it's cheaper and it's a sufficient diameter for what you're doing. By the way, you'll need to do the first metre or so (from the boiler) in copper before you go onto plastic.

 

The 28mm bore valves should go to both cold and hot branches of the thermocycled circuit?

 

Personally I wouldn't bother isolting the thermocycled side (I didn't on mine). As long as you have 22mm isolators on the pumped side and drain valves on both sides you will be able to drain and work on either side of the system without draining the other side.

Edited October 25, 2012 by blackrose

[agag]

My backboiler actually has 4 ports. I guess you will have to T off the two sides somewhere?

I see. So your backboiler has two independent coils?

 

The one that came with the stovax has only 2 ports. Hope this will work with half pumped and half gravity.

 

You're going to use plastic pipe for the thermocycled side of the system? Most people would want exposed pipes to be in copper. They're exposed unless you box them in? I'd just have 22mm for the pumped side because it's easier to use, it's cheaper and it's a sufficient diameter for what you're doing. By the way, you'll need to do the first metre or so (from the boiler) in copper before you go onto plastic.

 

 

From the boiler to the rads there is not much exposed pipe to see. The ugly bit is from the boiler to the calorifier.

 

The only reason I was planning to do it in plastic (apart for the bit close the boiler) was I wanted to have the possibility to have an aldi installed at some later point, providing some quick hot water in the summer and complimentary heating in the winter. Apparently they don't work with copper.

Since then the plan has been changed a lot and I am not even sure is even feasible anymore.

 

 

Thanks

A

[Ratty's Retreat]

I see, so it's a proper big header tank with a ballcock?

 

Really, I don't think I said that.

 

In that diagram the header tank feed to the bottom is redundant as the adjacent radiator does this.

So how is the system filled and evaporative losses replenished, or are we looking at different diagrams?

[blackrose]

Really, I don't think I said that.

 

I didn't say you said that, I asked you a question.

 

Anyway, why don't you jusy clarify what you did say? If there's a cold water feed to the header tank where does that enter the system and how is it regulated?

 

I see. So your backboiler has two independent coils?

 

 

No, there are no coils, just the one tank with 4 ports.

Edited October 25, 2012 by blackrose

[Ratty's Retreat]

ed from the header

I didn't say you said that, I asked you a question.

e

Anyway, why don't you jusy clarify what you did say? If there's a cold water feed to the header tank where does that enter the system and how is it regulated?

 

 

 

No, there are no coils, just the one tank with 4 ports.

Mike.

OK to clarify: You originally asked "Why does the header tank come off the bottom run rather than just having it T off the top?"

 

I replied saying "Header tank is the cold water feed to the system, so should feed into bottom."

To elaborate, the header tank contains colder water which has to be fed into the system at the coldest ie lowest point. Feeding it in at the top could upset the thermosyphon.

 

The drawing posted made no reference as to how the header tank was fed as it is not relevant to the original posters questions. Your solution works, providing it is monitored.

 

Hope this clariifys what I said, nows let's talk batteries and their similarities to header tanks!!!

 

John.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Ratty's Retreat

[canals are us?]

The bit that I haven't understood yet is how do I get the boiler hot/cold send to the 2 different sides of the system. I am planning to use plastic pipes after a meter of copper close the boiler as I have read around the forums. So I tee the 28mm copper pipes from the boiler after a meter to 28mm plastic going in one direction and a smaller 22mm pipe to the calorifier? Same for the cold inlet. How is yours done?

 

Shall I just use 28mm throughout or is this going to make the pumped system much more inefficient? (pipe comes in coils of 25 meters and i could do all with one)

 

The 28mm bore valves should go to both cold and hot branches of the thermocycled circuit?

 

 

I am going to make a diagram based on the one posted by James earlier but will have to wait for after work

 

 

 

I think I will forget the rad on this side and leave the calorifier only.

 

Many questions! Thanks very much for all the help so far. I think I am getting closer.

 

If it was me doing it I would run 28mm copper pipes from the stove always rising to the gravity rads and the return pipe under each rad. This gravity circuit pipework should be piped straight from the stove first all in 28mm.

For your pumped pipe circuit to your calorifier I would simply T into the gravity flow and return pipes behind the stove using compression fittings and on the flow pipe install the pump and run the flow and return to and from the calorifier in 22mm pipework.

 

Personally on the gravity side I would use copper pipe as to be honest the plastic piping might not take the extreme heat and kink and look very unsitely. I myself wouldn't use plastic piping full stop.

 

James

[smileypete]

I would do exactly that, more or less, trying to keep as much vertical distance as poss between the top of the rads and the backboiler connections. The separate feed and vent on the header tank will help encourage thermocycling if the system starts to boil.

 

Probably include an automatic 'bottle vent' on the top pipe to the calorifer, and have the top gravity pipe slope upward toward the header tank if only to encourage it to be self bleeding.

 

Maybe also tailor the pipe sizes to the output of back boiler and rads, the pumped bit could be 15mm and the pipes between rad 1 and 2 might be OK in 22mm. Also consider 2 or 4 connections to the gravity rads depending on size and balancing needs.

 

One thing to consider is how to ensure the calorifer can best get all the heat when needed, but avoid 'user error' type problems, thinking about that one...

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[agag]

Thanks everyone for the great ideas. Really Appreciated.

 

After reading through the posts again I ll do at least the gravity part and most of the pumped part in copper. Was thinking to do some lengths of the piping close to the calorifier in plastic. This could help a lot in a particularly awkward part that I have to run through (under the door step and in the cupboard where the calorifier lives)

 

Copper pipe with compression fittings are easy enough but when it comes to doing bends that are not 45 degrees I will be puzzled on how to do it.

 

The radiator in the the calorifier circuit is also not used.

 

The header tank will be tee'd off the cold feed after the stove and before the bathroom rad. It is not practical to have it at the end to the circuit past the bedroom rad but I will add a bleeding vent there and try to get a upwards slope all the way to it.

 

Some draining vent(?) in the lowest for of both sides. Very conveniently those two points are the cabin bilge location under the door step and the shower pump in the bathroom.

Do normally people us a a blanked off tee for this?

 

I have been looking online today making a list of all the materials I will need to purchase in the next couple of days so I can start work next weekend. Very exciting

 

I am not sure about the radiators fittings that I need to get:

 

From the 28mm pipe => tee to 22mm => 22mm riser pipe => elbow to 1/2" male?

 

 

Are radiator outlets normally 1/2 inch female?

It seems that valves are not needed in the gravity fed system.

 

 

Thank You!

Edited October 28, 2012 by agag

[smileypete]

All sounds reasonably good, would have a separate feed and vent to the header tank as in the diagram, the vent should be 22mm and point into the tank. For a drain off, look for a 'drain cock type A' there are threaded and solder ones:

 

http://www.screwfix.com/p/drain-cock-type-a-heavy-pattern-15mm/99939

 

The rads will have 1/2" female BSP parallel, if connecting with a 1/2" BSP parallel male use a sparing amount of sealer like Fernox and LS-X on the male thread.

 

Tip - a 15mm compression coupling has a 1/2" BSP parallel male thread on each end if you take the nut and olive off, so a bit of brute force and sealant will get a nice connection to your radiator.

 

A good way to control the circulation pump is with a cylinder/pipe thermostat strapped to the top pipe right next to the back boiler. This will save power and stop the heat in the calorifier being lost back to the backboiler as the fire cools down.

 

Could be worth having valves on the return connections from the gravity rads so you can divert all the heat to the calorifier if needed, I'd use something like a 15mm full bore butterfly handle valve, after the 22mm elbow.

 

http://www.screwfix.com/p/pegler-t-ball-valve-15mm-blue/21860

 

As far as pricing and range goes, it's well worth comparing Screwfix, Toolstation and BES Gas and Plumbing. If the spend on copper pipe is getting a bit high maybe consider doing the long 28mm runs in plastic and lag and 'box in'.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited October 29, 2012 by smileypete

[agag]

I am almost done with plumbing this up! Oh boy 28mm fittings are expensive! And drilling holes thru all 2 partitions and 3 cupboards for the pipes was without major casualties...

 

Radiators and all the pipes to the stove area now installed. I installed ballofix full bore valves in all radiator feed for balancing and in case I need to turn them off for some reason.

 

I had some trouble getting the 1/2 bsp to 15mm elbows off the radiators to point to the right direction while being tight. I used loads of fernox LS-X , plumbers tape and some o rings, hope this will work.

 

Also I installed full bore lever valves shuting the gravity fed system off and the same for the calorifier. I though is worth the extra money with me being a novice where many things might not just work and need to be reworked.

 

 

Now all I am missing for the gravity part of the system to be complete is connecting the header tank, drain cock and the automatic vent valves (all on order).

 

When all this is complete I would like to shut off the connections to the stove temporarily, add coolant in and see if it leaks.

 

So question: What kind of anti freeze mix should I use? 50/50 water and car antifreeze? I know that it has to be premixed... Or I need some fancy antifreeze?

 

 

Next step is replacing the stove with the new one that has a boiler. Would like to make the swap over as smooth as possible due to being in the middle of the winter.

 

the stove swap will be a separate post of its own. (never done something like this before) I am even considering hiring someone to help me install it. In fact i did called someone and I was told the can not do it because the stove is not DEFRA approved for london use? Anyway this is for the the stove post I am going to write tonite.

 

If all this works, I ll proceed to the pumped part of the system

Edited November 13, 2012 by agag

[agag]

Just an update for this project. I had installed the radiators and pipes and I was waiting for the xmas break to swap the stove.

The radiators seem to be warming up nicely and I am very pleased with this part of the project. Thanks everyone for the great advice!

 

 

Unfortunately the new stove is not performing very well yet. It seems that it doesnt get enough oxygen in to burn well.

 

I suspect that the flue is not long enough. She is a bit taller, so I removed approximately 30cm of flue length to fit it. Also the recommended minimum flue length acccording to the manufacturer is 4m, don't think I will ever be able to get this.

[swift1894]

Just an update for this project. I had installed the radiators and pipes and I was waiting for the xmas break to swap the stove.

The radiators seem to be warming up nicely and I am very pleased with this part of the project. Thanks everyone for the great advice!

 

 

Unfortunately the new stove is not performing very well yet. It seems that it doesnt get enough oxygen in to burn well.

 

I suspect that the flue is not long enough. She is a bit taller, so I removed approximately 30cm of flue length to fit it. Also the recommended minimum flue length acccording to the manufacturer is 4m, don't think I will ever be able to get this.

 

Haven't got time to read through all the posts on this, but is you external flue double skinned/insulated?

A warm flue "draws" better.

If it's only single skinned the wind will cool it.

Just a thought.