English National Concessionary Scheme (Bus Pass)

[Mac of Cygnet]

Have any CCers out there managed to get an English National Bus Pass? I have a Scottish one, but can't use it in England. I cruise all Summer, but have a winter mooring at Sowerby Bridge, West Yorkshire, where I spend a fair amount of time on the boat, but of course have no Council Tax or Utility bills as proof of residence. I thought of producing my (quarterly) mooring invoices as a (rather dubious) proof of residence in West Yorkshire. Continuous cruisers wouldn't even have this of course. Any experiences?

 

Mac

[ayeaye]

Have any CCers out there managed to get an English National Bus Pass? I have a Scottish one, but can't use it in England. I cruise all Summer, but have a winter mooring at Sowerby Bridge, West Yorkshire, where I spend a fair amount of time on the boat, but of course have no Council Tax or Utility bills as proof of residence. I thought of producing my (quarterly) mooring invoices as a (rather dubious) proof of residence in West Yorkshire. Continuous cruisers wouldn't even have this of course. Any experiences?

 

Mac

 

I have one was never asked for proof of residence just used a friends address for them to send it to Brenda

[Jim Lae]

I have one was never asked for proof of residence just used a friends address for them to send it to Brenda

 

 

I would be very careful what address you use . If you use an address which is only occupied by a

single person and they are claiming the 25% discount , and the council check on the Community

Tax Register (whatever its called) The house holder could find that they will have to pay the

fully Tax plus some very uncomfortable questions relating to a false claim .

[NB Alnwick]

Persons aged 60 and older are entitled to a pass that provides free off-peak travel on buses and certain other forms of public transport. There is no requirement to have a permanent address but not having one does make the administration difficult. If in doubt, or if you have any questions consult your nearest local authority as they have the responsibility for administering the concession. Alternatively there is information available here from Age Concern.

 

Certainly it is not necessary to be dishonest or make fraudulant claims in order to take advantage of something to which you are properly entitled.

[Jim]

Persons aged 60 and older are entitled to a pass that provides free off-peak travel on buses and certain other forms of public transport. There is no requirement to have a permanent address but not having one does make the administration difficult. If in doubt, or if you have any questions consult your nearest local authority as they have the responsibility for administering the concession. Alternatively there is information available here from Age Concern.

 

Certainly it is not necessary to be dishonest or make fraudulant claims in order to take advantage of something to which you are properly entitled.

 

Its part of my job (unfortunately) to manage the bus pass scheme in my local council's area. Each local council will have its own procedures, but in our area all applicants would have to produce proof of age (60+) and "proof of permanent residence in the Council's administrative area". This can be a Council tax receipt, utility bill, driving licence or similar. By "permanent" we mean "more than 6 months a year" and we work on the basis that you can only be a permanent resident of one place at a time. We get similar requests from people who have holiday homes and static caravans in our area but these are refused. Certainly if we knew you had a Scottish pass we wouldn't allow you an English one!

The good news is that there is no system of checking between Councils and certainly no communication with the Scots! It would be worth enquiring from "Metro" (who run the scheme in West Yorks) as to what they would require as evidence of an address. We are not on the canal system here but if we were we'd certainly consider a mooring invoice that was for more than 6 months, particularly if it was for a residential mooring.

Good Luck.

Jim

 

Edited for typo

Edited October 7, 2008 by Jim

[Chris J W]

Do you have a "Pension" address you could use?

[Big Steve]

Interestingley , on the gov. web site it says "MAY be entitled", quite a bit different to "entitled" I think. Seems a bit unfair though.

[Smelly]

Its part of my job (unfortunately) to manage the bus pass scheme in my local council's area. Each local council will have its own procedures, but in our area all applicants would have to produce proof of age (60+) and "proof of permanent residence in the Council's administrative area". This can be a Council tax receipt, utility bill, driving licence or similar. By "permanent" we mean "more than 6 months a year" and we work on the basis that you can only be a permanent resident of one place at a time. We get similar requests from people who have holiday homes and static caravans in our area but these are refused. Certainly if we knew you had a Scottish pass we wouldn't allow you an English one!

The good news is that there is no system of checking between Councils and certainly no communication with the Scots! It would be worth enquiring from "Metro" (who run the scheme in West Yorks) as to what they would require as evidence of an address. We are not on the canal system here but if we were we'd certainly consider a mooring invoice that was for more than 6 months, particularly if it was for a residential mooring.

Good Luck.

Jim

 

Edited for typo

 

hello Jim

 

I've somoene else asking me the same thing recently and I was wondering about the statutory basis for it. Don't spose you've a reference I could look at?

[Mac of Cygnet]

Its part of my job (unfortunately) to manage the bus pass scheme in my local council's area. Each local council will have its own procedures, but in our area all applicants would have to produce proof of age (60+) and "proof of permanent residence in the Council's administrative area". This can be a Council tax receipt, utility bill, driving licence or similar. By "permanent" we mean "more than 6 months a year" and we work on the basis that you can only be a permanent resident of one place at a time. We get similar requests from people who have holiday homes and static caravans in our area but these are refused. Certainly if we knew you had a Scottish pass we wouldn't allow you an English one!

The good news is that there is no system of checking between Councils and certainly no communication with the Scots! It would be worth enquiring from "Metro" (who run the scheme in West Yorks) as to what they would require as evidence of an address. We are not on the canal system here but if we were we'd certainly consider a mooring invoice that was for more than 6 months, particularly if it was for a residential mooring.

Good Luck.

Jim

 

Edited for typo

Well, that is certainly an Authorative reply, and quite encouraging, really. I obtained my application form from a Post Office, where I was told to fill it in, bring it back, and they would post it off for me. Whether they will act as the vetting agency for identity, age and residence, I don't know. Perhaps they will require copies of the relevant documents to send off. I certainly can produce invoices for 7 months continuous moorings last winter. Why would a Scottish pass disqualify me from an English one? Doesn't dual nationality apply here? (I was born in England)

 

Mac

[Jim]

Well, that is certainly an Authorative reply, and quite encouraging, really. I obtained my application form from a Post Office, where I was told to fill it in, bring it back, and they would post it off for me. Whether they will act as the vetting agency for identity, age and residence, I don't know. Perhaps they will require copies of the relevant documents to send off. I certainly can produce invoices for 7 months continuous moorings last winter. Why would a Scottish pass disqualify me from an English one? Doesn't dual nationality apply here? (I was born in England)

 

Mac

 

Mac,

The Post office will almost certainly act as the vetting agency. Does the form they gave you say that you need to produce anything to prove your eligibility?

 

Officially, there is no such thing as "English" or "Scottish" nationality. We are all "British" (Actually, I'm Welsh!). Concessionary bus travel happens to be one of the things for which responsibility has passed to the Scottish and Welsh governments following devolution. The reason you can't have both passes is because they are only available to permanent residents - and you can't be "permanently" in two places at once.

I believe that the UK and Scottish governments (there is no "English" government) are in discussion about the possibility of a "British" bus pass - but don't hold your breath!

 

Jim

[Bullfrog]

Officially, there is no such thing as "English" or "Scottish" nationality. We are all "British" (Actually, I'm Welsh!). Concessionary bus travel happens to be one of the things for which responsibility has passed to the Scottish and Welsh governments following devolution.

 

They won't accept the English ones on Cardiff buses!

 

David (recent visitor to the Fatherland)

[Machpoint005]

I have a Scottish one, but can't use it in England.

That's because it's paid for out of Scottish taxes, not English Council Tax. I regard that as perfectly fair, given the subsidy from Westminster to support each and every taxpayer north of the border. If you are prepared to pay Council Tax on your English residence, you'll presumably get the benefits.

 

Agreed it should be a national system, though. Either that, or we want full independence from Scotland.

[Jim]

hello Jim

 

I've somoene else asking me the same thing recently and I was wondering about the statutory basis for it. Don't spose you've a reference I could look at?

 

The relevant legislation is the Concessionary Bus Travel Act 2007, but that merely modifies earlier legislation (by increasing the area of travel) which required local authorities to grant local travel concessions to their own residents.

 

There is a link to all you could possibly want to know about concessionary bus travel in England (and more) here.

 

Can I go back to boating now please?

[Smelly]

Can I go back to boating now please?

Yup!

 

Can I go back to boating now please?

Yup!

[Mac of Cygnet]

That's because it's paid for out of Scottish taxes, not English Council Tax. I regard that as perfectly fair, given the subsidy from Westminster to support each and every taxpayer north of the border. If you are prepared to pay Council Tax on your English residence, you'll presumably get the benefits.

 

Agreed it should be a national system, though. Either that, or we want full independence from Scotland.

 

A common misconception, that 'subsidy', completely dwarfed by the oil revenues contributed from Scotland. But thats However, whatever the Scotland/England/Wales situation, there seems no reason why a simple reciprocity can't be declared, just as has happened between the various English Authorities to make the Bus Pass 'National'. Just like the respective National Trusts, in fact (I can use my Scottish NT card in England, and vice versa). I'd be quite happy for English (and Welsh) residents to use their passes in Scotland.

 

Mac

[Chertsey]

As I understand it, it's a national scheme, but the costs fall on individual local authorities, about which they're not very happy. That's why they want to be sure you live in their area, so they're not paying out for anyone they don't absolutely have to.

[Smelly]

S145 Transport Act 2000...

 

(2)

A travel concession authority must, on an application made to it by any person who appears to the authority to be an elderly or disabled person residing in its area, issue to the person free of charge a permit, in such form and for such period as the authority considers appropriate, indicating that he is entitled to the concession specified in subsection (1)

 

I think unless you can show evidence of a connection to a particular district you're stuffed.

[Mac of Cygnet]

S145 Transport Act 2000...

 

(2)

A travel concession authority must, on an application made to it by any person who appears to the authority to be an elderly or disabled person residing in its area, issue to the person free of charge a permit, in such form and for such period as the authority considers appropriate, indicating that he is entitled to the concession specified in subsection (1)

 

I think unless you can show evidence of a connection to a particular district you're stuffed.

 

So continuous cruisers who haven't got a house somewhere simply can't get a travel pass? I'm sure that this was an Unintended Consequence of the wording you quote. At least I have a mooring for more than six months of the year in the West Yorkshire area. I'll let you know how I get on in due course.

 

Mac

[Jim]

As I understand it, it's a national scheme, but the costs fall on individual local authorities, about which they're not very happy. That's why they want to be sure you live in their area, so they're not paying out for anyone they don't absolutely have to.

 

Not quite. Legally its 291 separate local schemes (!) which is why the supposedly "national" concession varies from place to place (i.e. in some places you can travel free all day, elsewhere you can't until after 9.30am). The cost of each journey actually falls upon the local council in whose area it starts (i.e. where you get on the bus) - not the Council that issues the pass. However, any council will still need to comply with the Transport Act that requires them to issue passes to a person who is residing in its area.

 

After all, its your money we're spending folks!

 

(Definitely going back to boating now!)

Jim

[bottle]

So continuous cruisers who haven't got a house somewhere simply can't get a travel pass? I'm sure that this was an Unintended Consequence of the wording you quote. At least I have a mooring for more than six months of the year in the West Yorkshire area. I'll let you know how I get on in due course.

 

Mac

 

True but most CCers have a place of residence. (family, friends etc.)

[Mac of Cygnet]

True but most CCers have a place of residence. (family, friends etc.)

 

Haven't you just contradicted yourself on one very short sentence? Yes, I did notice the winky, but I think that most issuing authorities will want more than just a bare address. I note that no CCers have replied with their success or otherwise.

 

Mac

[bottle]

Maybe

 

But, we will have an official address (our daughters) that will be given to all those that ask for it, we will be CCers though.

 

Edit: for instance my driving licence will have that address as proof.

Edited October 10, 2008 by bottle

[David Schweizer]

So continuous cruisers who haven't got a house somewhere simply can't get a travel pass? I'm sure that this was an Unintended Consequence of the wording you quote. At least I have a mooring for more than six months of the year in the West Yorkshire area. I'll let you know how I get on in due course.

 

Mac

But you have got a Bus pass - for Scotland, Why do you think yo are entitled to two?

 

Oh and please don't wheel out the old chestnut of oil revenues. Even Alex Salmond doesn't use that one any more, the budget subsidy outstripped the total tax income for Scotland several years ago.

[Mac of Cygnet]

But you have got a Bus pass - for Scotland, Why do you think yo are entitled to two?

 

Oh and please don't wheel out the old chestnut of oil revenues. Even Alex Salmond doesn't use that one any more, the budget subsidy outstripped the total tax income for Scotland several years ago.

 

I don't really want two. One to cover the whole of the UK would do very nicely thank you, or for simple reciprocity (For the record, I didn't vote for the present mishmash of devolution).

 

I did flag up the second item as The so-called Scots-subsidising Barnett Formula has, as you demonstrate, caused some resentment in England, but an article from the highly regarded and non-partisan Adam Smith Institute in April included the following:

 

"......The most sensible solution is to make Scotland fiscally autonomous. .........The Scottish Executive could easily finance all devolved spending if it set, collected and kept the proceeds of income tax, corporation tax and VAT, and took a share of North Sea Oil Revenues. "

 

Mac

[David Schweizer]

I don't really want two. One to cover the whole of the UK would do very nicely thank you, or for simple reciprocity (For the record, I didn't vote for the present mishmash of devolution).

 

I did flag up the second item as The so-called Scots-subsidising Barnett Formula has, as you demonstrate, caused some resentment in England, but an article from the highly regarded and non-partisan Adam Smith Institute in April included the following:

 

"......The most sensible solution is to make Scotland fiscally autonomous. .........The Scottish Executive could easily finance all devolved spending if it set, collected and kept the proceeds of income tax, corporation tax and VAT, and took a share of North Sea Oil Revenues. "

 

Mac

And would that include the Armed Forces?