Trent & Mersey Canal Lock renumbering

[Heartland]

Looking at some images (from the Gardener Collection) I saw that bridge numbers included 50 and 51 at Fradley, but now these numbers are different. It appears BW renumbered these locks. Was there a reason?

Junction Lock, for example, is now 17 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Heartland

[magpie patrick]

The lock at the Junction is 17 in Bradshaws 1904 (which doesn't do bridge numbers) - it's difficult to see what other number it could be other than 60 (by counting from the other end)

There were changes in the total number of locks in the very early days of the canal, but that was way before 1904 and certainly wouldn't have made an impact in the photographic era. 

Bridges are a different matter - at one time or another quite a few have gone missing and others been added, although I don't know that the numbers were changed, I don't know they weren't either

[mayalld]

3 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

The lock at the Junction is 17 in Bradshaws 1904 (which doesn't do bridge numbers) - it's difficult to see what other number it could be other than 60 (by counting from the other end)

There were changes in the total number of locks in the very early days of the canal, but that was way before 1904 and certainly wouldn't have made an impact in the photographic era. 

Bridges are a different matter - at one time or another quite a few have gone missing and others been added, although I don't know that the numbers were changed, I don't know they weren't either

I too would be very wary of concluding that the locks have been renumbered, but bridges have certainly been renumbered, and particularly at the northern end there are a number of bridges where the number carved into the stone differs from the metal plate

[Laurence Hogg]

The bridges had numbers replaced where missing in the 1990's, I know this as I supplied the replacement plates.

[Heartland]

I was forgetting that the bridges on the tail of the locks were in the general bridge numbering sequence from Shardlow and not numbered with the locks, so that the numbers for the lock bridges appear correct at Fradley. Although it is clear that there is some renumbering as original bridges have the stone numbers, which are different to the modern ones.

However, the change in Trent & Mersey bridge numbering does deserve further comment.

In 2008 BW renumbered the Llangollen Bridges from Welsh Frankton to assist their maintenance men finding the correct bridge. Those on the Llangollen Branch had the number suffix W added and this applies all the way to the River Dee. They have not done the same with the Tanant Feeder, but then that part is not navigable, even so they have recently cleared this feeder from weed improving the supply to Carreghofa. I have not heard about any renumbering on the Prees Branch.

  

[magpie patrick]

1 minute ago, Heartland said:

I was forgetting that the bridges on the tail of the locks were in the general bridge numbering sequence from Shardlow and not numbered with the locks, so that the numbers for the lock bridges appear correct at Fradley. Although it is clear that there is some renumbering as original bridges have the stone numbers, which are different to the modern ones.

However, the change in Trent & Mersey bridge numbering does deserve further comment.

In 2008 BW renumbered the Llangollen Bridges from Welsh Frankton to assist their maintenance men finding the correct bridge. Those on the Llangollen Branch had the number suffix W added and this applies all the way to the River Dee. They have not done the same with the Tanant Feeder, but then that part is not navigable, even so they have recently cleared this feeder from weed improving the supply to Carreghofa. I have not heard about any renumbering on the Prees Branch.

  

For a period at Frankton the numbering went 69, 70, 2, 3...

[Pluto]

There was a major reassessment of canal bridges in, I think, the 1960s, when ownership and responsibility for bridges was set down. On the L&LC, which had never had bridge numbers, a numbering system was introduced with those not the responsibility of BW having a letter added to the last bridge number on the list. Maps annotated at this also have bridge numbers which do not match those give today, to the extent that they were numbered from the other end of the canal to the system now in use. I suspect  similar renumbering may have taken place on other canals where bridge names, rather than numbers, had been used previously.

[Richard Fairhurst]

5 hours ago, Heartland said:

In 2008 BW renumbered the Llangollen Bridges from Welsh Frankton to assist their maintenance men finding the correct bridge. Those on the Llangollen Branch had the number suffix W added and this applies all the way to the River Dee. They have not done the same with the Tanant Feeder, but then that part is not navigable, even so they have recently cleared this feeder from weed improving the supply to Carreghofa. I have not heard about any renumbering on the Prees Branch.  

More specifically, I believe this was to help boaters when calling BW, e.g. "there's a problem at Bridge 5 on the Llangollen" - "which one?" - "um...".

Internally, BW (and now CRT) don't really use bridge numbers per se. Rather, everything is identified by a Functional Location - a longer code along the lines of LL-012-005, with one assigned to every single structure CRT owns. That example would (roughly) translate as "Llangollen Canal, kilometre 12, asset 5". 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Richard Fairhurst

[Pluto]

It may be the case today, but bridge numbering and naming has changed over the years. On the Peak Forest, what is now Bridge 13 was originally Bridge 20 or Leeds Bridge; on the L&LC, what is now Bridge 151 was Anchor or Salterforth Bridge, and later Bridge 194; on the Lancaster what is now Bridge 78A (the A signifies that it is now maintained by the local authority) was previously Bridge 101, and before that Botany, and earlier still, Knowley Bridge. The present bridge numbering may well have been associated, in part, with the early BW canal guides and opening up canals to leisure in the 1960s.

[Heartland]

The BCN had bridge names and the 1919 distance table lists bridges by names. Some early BCN Bridges had roman numerals on a cast iron noting the date of construction.

The Oxford clearly had numbers as is shown by an early distance table now in the National Archives. The numbering system followed the original course and the various shortenings led to a re-adjustment in numbers. Again it would be of use to follow how this changed. 

Bridge plates whether numerical or nameplates, were quite diverse. I notice some on the Huddersfield had the standard railway bridge plates as produced by the LNWR.