BMF-Breach of contract

[Dave-Shrop]

Is the BMF Contract worth the paper it is written on? Was it designed for the builders and not the purchaser.

 

Our build finally started in January and was going ok, had paid 10% deposit, 30% when shell completed, 30% when what should have been "Upon substantial completion of the fitting of the interior joinery work or installation of the engine or stepping of the mast whichever is the earlier" although we beleived it was not quite at that stage. Did discuss this on the forum. There are still a cupboard in corner of saloon and tv unit, plus doors to be fitted. No engine, Generator, bower thruster, oil stove or central heater unit in yet. Final 30% payment is due per contract when completed. The builder has stopped work on our boat and started on onother one stating he cannot continue until we pay him more. He states he does not know when he will have the money to buy the generator which is the next large item to go in, in fact he has had 70% of the cost of the generator via stage payments. Is this breach of Contract? Are we allowed to name this builder, think we will go to crick (he is there with a boat)and hand out leaflets to ensure no one else gets caught.

[mayalld]

Is the BMF Contract worth the paper it is written on? Was it designed for the builders and not the purchaser.

 

Our build finally started in January and was going ok, had paid 10% deposit, 30% when shell completed, 30% when what should have been "Upon substantial completion of the fitting of the interior joinery work or installation of the engine or stepping of the mast whichever is the earlier" although we beleived it was not quite at that stage. Did discuss this on the forum. There are still a cupboard in corner of saloon and tv unit, plus doors to be fitted. No engine, Generator, bower thruster, oil stove or central heater unit in yet. Final 30% payment is due per contract when completed. The builder has stopped work on our boat and started on onother one stating he cannot continue until we pay him more. He states he does not know when he will have the money to buy the generator which is the next large item to go in, in fact he has had 70% of the cost of the generator via stage payments. Is this breach of Contract? Are we allowed to name this builder, think we will go to crick (he is there with a boat)and hand out leaflets to ensure no one else gets caught.

 

Time to get heavy with him.

 

I'd give him 2 weeks to bring your boat back on track, and if he doesn't, remove it, and sue for the works not yet completed.

[John Orentas]

Do as Mayald suggests and inform him about your intentions with the leaflets. Show him one but keep it factual and provable.

 

"Think we will go to crick (he is there with a boat)and hand out leaflets to ensure no one else gets caught".

[Lesd]

Hi Dave,

Im sorry your having trouble...this is every new build buyers worse nightmare so you have my utmost sympathy. Back to your question; Morally he's obviously taking the michael big time and by asking for the last 30% (or even a proportion of it) early he is stepping outside on the contractual terms as you stte them. The vagueness of the contact wording has meant you have paid a lot more than you have received in terms of value but thats not a breach, its just bad wording i'm afraid. But by stopping working and asking for more money now he's going clearly into a breach situation in my opinion.

 

The BMF contract has a ''dispute resolution'' section but i dont personally know of anyone who hs used it myself. I'd go see a lawyer and get his view quick sharp then go toCrick and have a discussion with this chap. I'd just caution blowing up big style in public as if it goes really pear shaped there will only be one way forward after that and that will be in court. That said, the Crick leverage is worth exploiting !

 

Good luck and I sincerely hope this works out for you.

Les

 

PS I'd like to know the name of the builder, I dontthink its a problem to name them personally

Edited May 25, 2007 by Lesd

[Freetochat]

This sounds much like the builder has no cashflow/assets to complete your work, and is using his next order to continue to trade. I would give him one further opportunity in writing to restart the build then remove the boat for completion elsewhere. These are all indications of underfunding, and you don't want to loose everything. Notify the BMF as well.

[stuart]

See if you can get him to sign that the boat "belongs" to you - sounds like he's going under to me.

[Denis R]

Just looked out the BMF contract I had when 'Whirlwind' was built:

 

The Builders shall give the Purchaser 14 days' notice of the anticipated date of completion of each stage of construction as provided in Schedule 2. On expiry of such notice the Purchaser shall certify that the stage has been satisfactorily completed (such certification not to be unreasonably withheld) whereupon the relevant Stage Payment will become immediately due and payable in full without discount, deduction or set off.

 

Sounds to me like your stage has not been 'satisfactorily completed' hence builder does not pass 'Go' and does not collect 200....

 

I share Stuart and Freetochat's concerns here. The builder's had 70% of the contract price so far. To be on the safe side, I'd be inclined to go and round up anything littered around the builder's that's destined for your boat and make sure it's clearly identified as your property. Looking back I had paid 80% by the time I stood looking at the finished boat in the water, engine running and ready to go out on its acceptance trials

[Timleech]

Does his trading name begin with 'M'?

 

Tim

[Mr Who]

Does his trading name begin with 'M'?

 

Tim

 

I was wondering the same. if it does begin with M, I think he will be out of business very soon as I have seen some really big money and I mean BIG money being spent to sort him out by another forum member who is not short of a bob or two, who was let down big time. Sorry I cant say any more so Dont ask.

 

Why cant they settle disputes amicably? It saves so much money and bitterness

 

I thought I`d better add we may be talking about totally different people here, it just sounds so similar to me???

Edited May 26, 2007 by Mr Who

[Dave-Shrop]

NO his trading name begins with "S"

[Lesd]

Not many builders/fitters on the Crick show exhibiters list begining with 'S'........

http://www.crickboatshow.co.uk/exhibitorlist/builders.shtml

[charles123]

I hope this is not one of those one sided stories like we had with the nb westwood saga. Does not ring true somehow and I cant see why the builder would mess you around for no aparent reason, he is business to build boats, provide good service, build a good name for himself and make a living. Giving you the benefit of the doubt I would seek legal advice and deal with it that way

 

Charles

[Mr Who]

I hope this is not one of those one sided stories like we had with the nb westwood saga. Does not ring true somehow and I cant see why the builder would mess you around for no aparent reason, he is business to build boats, provide good service, build a good name for himself and make a living. Giving you the benefit of the doubt I would seek legal advice and deal with it that way

 

Charles

 

 

I dont know why you call this or the Westwood story a one sided story or a saga, have you met them or seen the boat for your self? Can you explain please why you think they would make up such a story? I would have thought they will have survey reports and estimates supporting their claims? Do you not think they had legal advice?

 

What do you know that we dont? If you have heard the other side of the story have you seen it backed by any evidence? or was it just a one sided story that you believed?

 

I think Timleech talks about somebody (in another thread) that I met quite by chance, I may be wrong but the stories are incredibly similar, and if they are who I think they are, I wonder what these people would say about your remarks? I was told these people bounced a cheque for £20 000, what utter nonsence, that was just a lie put about by the person they complained about.

 

Tradesmen dont want to spend money, it`s as simple as that, There are good and bad in all trades, and just because a guy is a nice guy or a good liar, or you know him, doesnt make him good at his job, good after sales service can cost money, and some tradesmen just aren`t bothered once they`ve had your hard earned cash, thats the difference between good Tradesmen and bad I suppose? A good reputation takes years to earn but a bad one can be had quite quickly.

 

Do you ever watch "House of Horrors"?, I dont think these tradesmen think like you or I

 

I`ve seen your boat by the way Charles and it is really lovely, Gorgous infact.

 

I wonder what you spent on that and how you would feel if you had a problem with it such as Westwood has?

 

edited to add that I am not related to the case, other than in interest, the same as every body else on here.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Mr Who

[Dave-Shrop]

He is not listed on the crick site, I asked him about this and he states he has an arragement, he left Stourport-on-Severn Basin yesterday with the boat and was at crick all day yesterday. I asked his office staff to get him to phone me, but he has not, so we are off to the show to see him today, together with leaflets. Have contacted BMF + Legal team. Nothing can be done until Tuesday.

[charles123]

I dont know why you call this or the Westwood story a one sided story or a saga, have you met them or seen the boat for your self? Can you explain please why you think they would make up such a story? I would have thought they will have survey reports and estimates supporting their claims? Do you not think they had legal advice?

 

What do you know that we dont? If you have heard the other side of the story have you seen it backed by any evidence? or was it just a one sided story that you believed?

 

I think Timleech talks about somebody (in another thread) that I met quite by chance, I may be wrong but the stories are incredibly similar, and if they are who I think they are, I wonder what these people would say about your remarks? I was told these people bounced a cheque for £20 000, what utter nonsence, that was just a lie put about by the person they complained about.

 

Tradesmen dont want to spend money, it`s as simple as that, There are good and bad in all trades, and just because a guy is a nice guy or a good liar, or you know him, doesnt make him good at his job, good after sales service can cost money, and some tradesmen just aren`t bothered once they`ve had your hard earned cash, thats the difference between good Tradesmen and bad I suppose? A good reputation takes years to earn but a bad one can be had quite quickly.

 

Do you ever watch "House of Horrors"?, I dont think these tradesmen think like you or I

 

I`ve seen your boat by the way Charles and it is really lovely, Gorgous infact.

 

I wonder what you spent on that and how you would feel if you had a problem with it such as Westwood has?

 

edited to add that I am not related to the case, other than in interest, the same as every body else on here.

 

People post on these discussion forums for whatever reason motivates them. Some post topics for which they clearly want only one type of reply ie a supportive reply, this could be one I dont know. There are some poor businessmen out there as boat builders, the builder in question may be bad we dont know yet. There are also customers that change start dates, layouts, are late with stage payments etc that create havoc with a small business that has small margins and relies on everthing going smoothly. Shells can be delivered late, fit out materials the same.

The westwood saga was clearly a one sided story and it came out later that it was not quite so one sided however as I recall and I dont intend to re read it, those that pointed this out were hounded of the topic and dropped out of the discussion

I hope this gets resolved in amicably as no one likes to lose money on the scale that we are talking about when boat building

 

Charles

[Gary Peacock]

Firstly I think everyone needs to remain calm for Dave's sake.

 

The first stage providing the builder is a true BMF member let them have a crack at sorting it out. (After all that's what their supposed to do?)

 

Having a direct crack at the builder might at best inflame the situation and at worst if the situation is bad, (And it does look a bit that way.) he might just throw in the towel and run leaving Dave dealing with the administrator. (This is not a good situation to be in at all.)

 

I think everyone here can see the BMF contract isn't really up to it anymore it needs a update urgently. We use the BMF contract with a modified payment schedule spread over 6 payments at specified points with a fixed £2k deposit. (I dreamed this one up and think it works better for all.)

 

The golden rule is do not pay for what you haven't got! (I say this rather a lot but people still do Anthony M, Heron, Lees etc.)

 

It isn't only builders who stand accused of being a bit wide of the mark, we were owed £69k in payments for work already completed earlier this year by a Walter Mitty customer who thought it would suit their purposes to just stop paying. (Try talking that through with the bank manager!)

 

So I would recommend giving the BMF time and if that doesn't work to get heavy quickly with the minimum of notice and get the boat. (Can't you just tell I used to be a repo man!)

[Mr Who]

Well lets hope Dave Shrop gets it sorted ASAP it cant be very nice being in disbute.

 

I just cant believe how many owners that I`ve met on the cut with problems with their builders, and I can see the difference to others where the builder has come out travelling miles to sort out what I thought were trivial jobs. I dont think all these owners are making up their stories. Or perhaps we should not believe the ones with positive comments?

[Dave-Shrop]

Been to crick

Well that seems to have sorted it - very apologetic, stated it was all a misunderstanding and that the fitters will start work on our boat again on Wednesday and that it will be completed in 14 days. That no money is required until completed. We will wait and see, I think it will be nearer 4 weeks with the amount of work required. Phew!

 

Crick show

Still long traffic queues from A5 - M1 to Crick show. Needs entrance problem and parking sorted. Only a single width opening so only one car in or out and only one from one direction at a time. Needs two double entrances. Once in all cars are directed to same area to park and each car has to wait for the one in front to park. They should split the cars coming in so as to keep the traffic moving.

 

David.

[Mr Who]

Been to crick

Well that seems to have sorted it - very apologetic, stated it was all a misunderstanding and that the fitters will start work on our boat again on Wednesday and that it will be completed in 14 days. That no money is required until completed. We will wait and see, I think it will be nearer 4 weeks with the amount of work required. Phew!

 

Crick show

Still long traffic queues from A5 - M1 to Crick show. Needs entrance problem and parking sorted. Only a single width opening so only one car in or out and only one from one direction at a time. Needs two double entrances. Once in all cars are directed to same area to park and each car has to wait for the one in front to park. They should split the cars coming in so as to keep the traffic moving.

 

David.

 

 

Great news, I`ll keep my fingers crossed for you.

 

It`s all very well for the likes of Charles (or others for that matter) to say it may be a one sided story or some kind of Saga, you usually find Its people like him/them that will shout the loudest when theres something wrong with the toothpaste they purchased for 50p let alone the ammount you could lose on a boat, I cant imagine the worry you must have.

 

Lets just hope your builder means what he says and it wasn`t just a fob off to shut you up, and that his word is good and you get sorted.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Mr Who

[John Orentas]

Lets just hope your builder means what he says and it wasn`t just a fob off to shut you up, and that his word is good and you get sorted.

 

 

 

Sadly I think Mr Who may have a point, when the show is over your builder may well think he has the whip hand again. At the risk of stating the obvious it is vital that you retain all documentation, even personal notes of conversations and phone calls. Contemporary documentation, it carries a lot of weight in law.

[mayalld]

Firstly I think everyone needs to remain calm for Dave's sake.

 

The first stage providing the builder is a true BMF member let them have a crack at sorting it out. (After all that's what their supposed to do?)

 

Having a direct crack at the builder might at best inflame the situation and at worst if the situation is bad, (And it does look a bit that way.) he might just throw in the towel and run leaving Dave dealing with the administrator. (This is not a good situation to be in at all.)

 

This is very true, and is reason for Dave to watch his builder like a hawk, and be ready to act.

 

If he believes that the builder is about to go under, he needs to be in there with a crane, and remove his property immediately.

 

He has contractual documents which assure him of ownership of the part completed boat, so he would be acting legally. The last thing he wants is to be trying to convince the administrator that he already owns the boat in the workshop.

 

Been to crick

Well that seems to have sorted it - very apologetic, stated it was all a misunderstanding and that the fitters will start work on our boat again on Wednesday and that it will be completed in 14 days. That no money is required until completed. We will wait and see, I think it will be nearer 4 weeks with the amount of work required. Phew!

 

Translation:

 

he has taken enough deposits at crick to fund getting you off his back. Some of the people who paid deposits at crick will be lucky to get a boat.

[Pav]

Hi All,

 

I paid a deposit to this same builder in May 2006 and signed a contract for a 58' semi trad with a delivery date of May 2007.

 

On a visit to the boatyard a number of months ago, I questioned the foreman about delivery, he said I would be lucky to get the boat by July. I visted the office and spoke to the manager who admitted they were behind with the builds and it would be July before my boat would be ready.

 

A few months ago at the NEC, the company was exhibiting and in a conversation with the manager about our build, he told me the builds were even further behind, the foreman had also now left the company and it would be October before we could expect delivery of our boat.

 

I expressed that I would cancel the order but was offered compensation of free moorings for 6 months from delivery and some extra work on my boat without charge and that the manager would now oversee all dealings with me and that he would contact me at the end of April beginning of May to discuss final requirements.

 

Well into May and no contact from the Manager so I contacted the company. The owner of the company informed me that the manager had now also left..............ALARM BELLS!!!

 

Again I said I wished to cancel but was informed by the owner that the company was catching up on its builds and my boat would be ready and delivered to me at the end of August. He knew nothing about the compensation I had been offered by the manager but did say this would be honoured. A meeting between us was suggested which was to be after Crick and after my return from my holidays.

 

Since placing my order 12 months ago, certain things have made me question my choice of company. Then I saw this topic, followed through and found out that Dave and I were customers of the same company.

 

Enough being enough I sent an e mail to the owner of the boat company to say that I would not need a meeting with him as I had decided to definately cancel my order.

 

Surprise, surprise I have had a reply back from him today saying we have a contract and, that should I cancel, I would be charged for 'losses' suffered by the his company which may then increase and I would therfore not get back my full deposit!!!!!!!! I have replied to him this morning to tell him that apart from the fact I have no boat at the date stated in our contract, his company is now developing a bit of a poor reputation, that I have heard of other customers experiances which I am not prepared to risk and that I have concerns about key members of his staff leaving. I have enquired what losses he could possibly have other than the drawing up of the plans and a contract, the interest from my deposit over the year should cover those. No way do I or can I afford to lose the deposit, but I can not risk carrying on with this company now.

[mayalld]

Surprise, surprise I have had a reply back from him today saying we have a contract and, that should I cancel, I would be charged for 'losses' suffered by the his company which may then increase and I would therfore not get back my full deposit!!!!!!!! I have replied to him this morning to tell him that apart from the fact I have no boat at the date stated in our contract, his company is now developing a bit of a poor reputation, that I have heard of other customers experiances which I am not prepared to risk and that I have concerns about key members of his staff leaving. I have enquired what losses he could possibly have other than the drawing up of the plans and a contract, the interest from my deposit over the year should cover those. No way do I or can I afford to lose the deposit, but I can not risk carrying on with this company now.

 

If he has actually started on your build, he has a part built boat to your specification that he will probably have to sell at a lower price.

[Pav]

No he has not yet started. The shell itself has not even been started yet.

 

Pav

[Freetochat]

Pav - It seems to me to be a wise decision to pull out. As for breach of contract, I think that one is easily solved when the boat hasn't been started by delivery date. With all these horror stories floating about, it is becomiing a high risk venture to sign a contract to have a build done. I know I am now re-considering the whole idea!

Edited May 29, 2007 by Freetochat