Poles

[anhar]

Blimey. Totally out-pedanted. I take my hat off to you.

 

Not sure I follow the logic of 'Your comments are not even pedantic therefore, they are plain wrong' though.

Hello WW

 

What I meant was that you thought you were being pedantic in taking the word "incredible" literally whereas in fact its usage as an emphasis is quite correct. In fact the latter usage is almost certainly the most common these days as I said earlier, probably to the extent that the word cannot be used easily in its original meaning without the risk of misinterpretation.

 

Thus to describe yourself as a pedant in the circumstances is actually a wrong description. A true pedant would observe that "incredible" can mean literally incapable of belief and alternatively, and backed up by the OED, it can be used to add strong emphasis to another word.

 

So you are not really a pedant. I thought you would be pleased.

 

The real point is that we pedants have to be worldly and move with the times, otherwise we are not the real thing, mere impostors, like minor bureaucrats trying to impose petty and incorrect usage rules upon others for the sake of it, rather than what we should be, interested in the love of the language including its fluid nature. The very difficult trick is to know at what stage to concede that a word has new meaning, or some grammatical change has occurred etc. and desist from insisting that some earlier situation is still applicable.

 

regards

Steve

Edited May 9, 2007 by anhar

[NB Alnwick]

Best contribution that could ever be made to road safety is to fit large spikes to the middle of the steering wheel - who is going to speed or take risks then

 

Thats why Citroen 2CV drivers are so careful . . .

[anhar]

I know - without Anhar this whole forum would collapse into fast information exchange! Where would we be without him!

Do I take it then William that your views on the mortal peril into which we boaters are thrust by the mere possession of boat poles or cruiser sterns, not to mention the double death danger from those having both, constitute part of the "fast information exchange" of this site?

 

How do the great majority of canal boaters out there who don't read this forum yet have poles and cruiser sterns survive without your "fast information exchange". Ah! I've just figured it out. They represent what is left.

 

Many years ago there were perhaps ten times the number of boater having poles and/or CSs. However those that didn't receive the fast information exchange from you have been largely wiped out by the same poles and CSs. Those that survived must have done so because of the fast information exchange of your warnings about the "incredible dangers" of these things. I for one will never go near my boat again, which when it is delivered will have both a pole and a CS, without at least a Winchester pump action shotgun.

 

No lousy boat pole or cruiser stern is going to take me out. Thanks mate for the warning.

 

regards

Steve

[Sir Nibble]

The real point is that we pedants have to be worldly and move with the times, otherwise we are not the real thing, mere impostors, like minor beaureaucrats trying to impose petty and incorrect usage rules upon others for the sake of it, rather than what we should be, interested in the love of the language including its fluid nature. The very difficult trick is to know at what stage to concede that a word has new meaning, or some grammatical change has occurred etc. and desist from insisting that some earlier situation is still applicable.

I have to agree, English is a living language, and therefore subject to change and adaptation in use. The problem is that the changes are usually made by the ignorant, example, the word "docile" taking on the meaning of "stupid". The problem is that the logical conclusion is an inexorable slide toward grunting and pointing.

By the way, I have niether a pole nor a punt, it's a stick.

[Timleech]

S'funny the pole Denis Wain, ex-working boatman, sold me was described by him as a pole, Tom Chaplin describes it as both a pole and a shaft dedifferenpending on the context. Of course I'm not suggesting your rolleyes smiley isn't appropriate, where would we be without that well known saying 'I wouldn't touch you with a barge shaft' .

 

If we want to be really precious about the terminology though, I believe punt, or quant is the correct, and more traditional name.

 

'Wouldn't touch it with a barge pole' is probably an expression dreamed up by people who had never touched a barge pole. Or shaft. Or 'barge'.

 

They've always been 'shafts' to me, going back to the mid -1960's in the NW, and spending time with working and ex-working boatmen. A pole was what 'Noddy-boaters' used. (A Noddy boat was a small glass fibre cruiser or converted lifeboat).

Quant is surely a Norfolk Broads term? Never heard it used around here. No doubt other terms may have been used in other parts of the country and on other types of craft, but as regards Narrow Boats, Edward Paget-Tomlinson's definitive tome 'The Illustrated History of Canal & River Navigations' refers to 'Long Shafts' and 'Cabin Shafts', the same terms that I've always known.

 

Of course in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter a jot so long as people understand what you mean, hence my smiley, but it saddens me a bit when some of the older methods and language are displaced.

 

Tim

[Moley]

Whatever definition we choose to apply to the word incredible, I think it is clear that WJM's implication or intended use was that poles are extremely dangerous, and I would therefore like to call upon the learned fellow to substantiate that claim by means of statistics or case studies and to attempt to quantify the perils we face when using such an implement, as I have never sustained so much as a splinter, or have I just been incredibly (meaning unbelievably) fortunate?

[WJM]

You are right Anhar - on every count! Keep it up - you are a shining beacon in a sea stupidity!

 

 

 

Danger of Poles/Shafts:

1) the rule of 4 - in a straight line, wall, pole, person, moving boat - squish! so the lesson is; always be beside your pole never in-line with it

2) poles are for only pushing; use of pole as lever, pole snaps, reincarnates itself as sharp post sticking up from the mud, boater wobbles and re-enacts dinner time at the kebab house

Edited May 9, 2007 by WJM

[DHutch]

Where did you get the Aluminium Pole, and what size is it length and diameter?

We made it ourself.

- Or actaully, my grandads boating freind specifyed it and made it.

 

Its proberbly about 15ft long, 50mm diameter, and about 1.2mm wall thickness, and a slightly fancy alloy.

- Then as the others have said, it has two wooden ends. One rounded for confort, and the other with a 50*100mm flat end for doing bussiness with.

- You cant use it for leavering, but its very strong for pushing againsnt, and very light for its lenght so you can extend it fully. And it does float with the ends in. Its also pritty safe in terms of potential failure, certainly it wont splinter like a banister rail would!

 

 

Daniel

[aread2]

We made it ourself.

- Or actaully, my grandads boating freind specifyed it and made it.

 

Its proberbly about 15ft long, 50mm diameter, and about 1.2mm wall thickness, and a slightly fancy alloy.

- Then as the others have said, it has two wooden ends. One rounded for confort, and the other with a 50*100mm flat end for doing bussiness with.

- You cant use it for leavering, but its very strong for pushing againsnt, and very light for its lenght so you can extend it fully. And it does float with the ends in. Its also pritty safe in terms of potential failure, certainly it wont splinter like a banister rail would!

Daniel

Sounds exactly like a punt pole from the Cherwell Boat House.

[DHutch]

Sounds exactly like a punt pole from the Cherwell Boat House.

Yeah, i wouldnt be at all supprised if there very simular.

- I dont know anythin about punt pole, but certianly something worth looking into! Ill have to keep an eye out for a oppertunity to get my hands on one!

 

 

 

Daniel

[carlt]

'Wouldn't touch it with a barge pole' is probably an expression dreamed up by people who had never touched a barge pole. Or shaft. Or 'barge'.

 

"probably?" Must be right then. though the bargemen of the SS&SYC who taught me as a kid in the '70's referred to them as poles.

 

They've always been 'shafts' to me, going back to the mid -1960's in the NW, and spending time with working and ex-working boatmen. A pole was what 'Noddy-boaters' used. (A Noddy boat was a small glass fibre cruiser or converted lifeboat).

Quant is surely a Norfolk Broads term? Never heard it used around here. No doubt other terms may have been used in other parts of the country and on other types of craft, but as regards Narrow Boats, Edward Paget-Tomlinson's definitive tome 'The Illustrated History of Canal & River Navigations' refers to 'Long Shafts' and 'Cabin Shafts', the same terms that I've always known.

 

Not sure anyone but you would regard EPT's works as 'definitive'. He certainly didn't, and other, equally respected canal historians have used the terms 'pole', 'poling' and 'boat pole' in their 'tomes'. I wasn't aware we were discussing any particular type of boat btw.

 

Of course in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter a jot so long as people understand what you mean, hence my smiley, but it saddens me a bit when some of the older methods and language are displaced.

 

I agree with that though, having heard the term pole used by working boatmen on boats wide and narrow it would be a shame to see this displaced by a bit of pedantry.

 

 

Tim

 

Oh and whilst poling my butty round sutton stop in the 90s, my pole with the turned oak shoulder rest was described as a quant by Les Lapworth. He was a bit disparaging about it's short length and my technique.

Edited May 17, 2007 by carlt

[Timleech]

Oh and whilst poling my butty round sutton stop in the 90s, my pole with the turned oak shoulder rest was described as a quant by Les Lapworth. He was a bit disparaging about it's short length and my technique.

 

 

I was chatting to a friend just now who worked for years on the 'Dukers' (Bridgewater barges), thought I would ask him what terms they used.

They were *always* shafts to him, he also told me that the 'Wiganers' (Leeds & Liverpool boatmen) always called them shafts, & something I didn't know or had forgotten was that they (Wiganers) had what they called a 'Fan Shaft' for clearing the 'Fan' (Blade or blades to narrow boat men, at least in these parts), more or less equivalent to the Narrow Boat 'Cabin Shaft'. The Dukers men just talked about the 'prop' rather than blades or fan.

A curiousity about the terminology has just struck me, in that Narrow Boat men would talk about "getting Fan-hold", ie when an empty motor boat would pull down enough at the stern for the propellor to start doing its job properly, but I don't remember ever hearing the prop referred to as the 'fan' in a NB context, always Blade or Blades. No doubt someone will pop up to say otherwise

 

Tim.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Timleech

[carlt]

A curiousity about the terminology has just struck me, in that Narrow Boat men would talk about "getting Fan-hold", ie when an empty motor boat would pull down enough at the stern for the propellor to start doing its job properly, but I don't remember ever hearing the prop referred to as the 'fan' in a NB context, always Blade or Blades. No doubt someone will pop up to say otherwise

 

Tim.

Funnily enough an old boater mentioned "fan hold" to me when I was struggling to wind at Marston Junction with Electra. I was actually hung up on a lump of concrete (using my pole/shaft/punt/quant/stick as a lever to push the skeg off) when he chucked in his two pennorth, so all I could muster was an "Oh aye?" and he went on his way. I've never heard it before or since and cursed myself for not asking him what he was on about. Now I know what he meant, no amount of "fan-hold" would have got me off (and a pine bannister rail would have had no chance).

[WJM]

"Bread on the Water" - David Blagrove - 1984

 

Very good narrowboating glossary in the back - should settle a few arguments, apart from being a great read.

[carlt]

"Bread on the Water" - David Blagrove - 1984

 

Very good narrowboating glossary in the back - should settle a few arguments, apart from being a great read.

It's still just another (well respected) opinion though. Nothing is definitive (unless he agrees with me of course).