Aire and Calder to Nottingham

[florimondo]

We are 68 ft dutch barge style narrow boat, thinking about heading from Aire and Calder to Nottingham.

I have just read that someone has got a 70 ft NB through Thorne lock which is listed as under 62 ft we draw about 33inches and are 68 foot with fenders off. Does any one have up to date info, should we go in backwards.

We had planned on going from Goole on the ebb tide getting to Trent falls just as the tide is turning and heading up the Trent.. Have been down the Trent as far as Keadby before and managed to get into all 3 locks en route without touching...53 foot boat and watched a lot of you Tube before hand

Does anyone have up to date info on Goole to decent safe mooring of stop off on the Trent [little dog will be busting if we cant get her onto dry land at some stage]

We have done the tidal Trent,tidal Thames,Avon and Severn so reasonably competent, boat is 3 years old Vetus 43 HP twin cooling skin tanks so overheating shouldnt be a problem.

Any info would be great thanks.

ps have a hand held vhf... lockie at limehouse told me he had had one for over 20 years and never had a licence....

[Alan de Enfield]

 

....................ps have a hand held vhf... lockie at limehouse told me he had had one for over 20 years and never had a licence....

 

C&RT lockies are not required to 'do' the course and have an individual licence. They operate on a 'group / corporate' licence on the understanding that C&RT train then to the necessary standards.

 

I don't know if the EA ones are the same.

[peterboat]

I went through Thorne lock the other week cant see how they did it to be honest but both gates are on separate controls so anything is possible mine is 57 x 12

[NilesMI]

 

 

C&RT lockies are not required to 'do' the course and have an individual licence. They operate on a 'group / corporate' licence on the understanding that C&RT train then to the necessary standards.

 

When I did my VHF course in Nottingham, 3 years a go, a number of new CRT volunteer lockies were doing the same.

 

Chatting to a couple of them, they said needed to pass the RYA course as they would be volunteering on the locks on the Trent. Whether CRT then paid the extra fees for personal licences for them is another matter.

[florimondo]

 

C&RT lockies are not required to 'do' the course and have an individual licence. They operate on a 'group / corporate' licence on the understanding that C&RT train then to the necessary standards.

 

I don't know if the EA ones are the same.

thanks thats interesting...can I just add that when we did the Trent and the Thames we were told that a vhf was desirable but that a mobile phone would do instead any thoughts on that

[Alan de Enfield]

Having 'lost' it all twice I am not typing the full justification again.

 

Summary - VHF

 

When a boat passes you 'towing' a dog try calling him on the phone to tell him.

 

Many 'dead spots' along the Trent for both EE & "Three" (the phones we have)

No dead spots for VHF. Normally transmits more than 2 locks in each direction

[florimondo]

Having 'lost' it all twice I am not typing the full justification again.

 

Summary - VHF

 

When a boat passes you 'towing' a dog try calling him on the phone to tell him.

 

Many 'dead spots' along the Trent for both EE & "Three" (the phones we have)

No dead spots for VHF. Normally transmits more than 2 locks in each direction

Good point I wonder why they dont make it compulsory to have both a VHF radio and a licence

[Tony Dunkley]

We are 68 ft dutch barge style narrow boat, thinking about heading from Aire and Calder to Nottingham.

I have just read that someone has got a 70 ft NB through Thorne lock which is listed as under 62 ft we draw about 33inches and are 68 foot with fenders off. Does any one have up to date info, should we go in backwards.

We had planned on going from Goole on the ebb tide getting to Trent falls just as the tide is turning and heading up the Trent.. Have been down the Trent as far as Keadby before and managed to get into all 3 locks en route without touching...53 foot boat and watched a lot of you Tube before hand

Does anyone have up to date info on Goole to decent safe mooring of stop off on the Trent [little dog will be busting if we cant get her onto dry land at some stage]

We have done the tidal Trent,tidal Thames,Avon and Severn so reasonably competent, boat is 3 years old Vetus 43 HP twin cooling skin tanks so overheating shouldnt be a problem.

Any info would be great thanks.

ps have a hand held vhf... lockie at limehouse told me he had had one for over 20 years and never had a licence....

 

You should be able get down Thorne with a narrow beam x 68' boat without having to go stern first, . . I've been [downgate] through that lock with a 67' x 14' 6" BW Trent bucket dredger, on the way back to the Trent from Doncaster.

There's a lot of depth over the top cill of that lock, and if the pound from Thorne to Keadby is on weir or close to, it's still got a foot or so over it with the lock drained right down. With your draught you can drain the lock down enough to be able to let the fore-end run under the walkways [on the bottom gates] and into the corner by one of the heel posts before there's any chance of the stern end catching the cill.

When the lock has drained right down, open the other side bottom gate and shove the fore-end across.

 

Leaving Goole with a pleasure boat to get to Trent End at flood [Low Water] isn't a good idea, for several reasons.

Even with your shallow draught, there are some places where you'll ground near LW unless you're spot-on in the deep channel, and you'll be outside of Free Tide Time at Goole so you'll be paying £31.25 for the pen out at Goole. If you go out earlier [no later than 1.5 hours after Goole HW] to avoid the charge there and lay on Blacktoft Jetty over the ebb, then ABP will charge you the same for doing that.

 

Your best option is to pen into the Ouse on the last minutes of Free Tide Time, run down to Trent End, turn into the Trent, then anchor a couple of boats lengths off the stones [half tide wall] a good 400 yards upriver of South Trent Light. Get underway again, up the Trent, on the last of the ebb about 15 - 20 minutes before flood.

 

You must only undertake this in suitable, settled weather conditions, and you will either need to know the river very well, go with another boat that does, or take a Pilot, . . . the lower Ouse and Trent are no place for pleasure craft in the hands of first timers on these rivers.

[florimondo]

 

You should be able get down Thorne with a narrow beam x 68' boat without having to go stern first, . . I've been [downgate] through that lock with a 67' x 14' 6" BW Trent bucket dredger, on the way back to the Trent from Doncaster.

There's a lot of depth over the top cill of that lock, and if the pound from Thorne to Keadby is on weir or close to, it's still got a foot or so over it with the lock drained right down. With your draught you can drain the lock down enough to be able to let the fore-end run under the walkways [on the bottom gates] and into the corner by one of the heel posts before there's any chance of the stern end catching the cill.

When the lock has drained right down, open the other side bottom gate and shove the fore-end across.

 

Leaving Goole with a pleasure boat to get to Trent End at flood [Low Water] isn't a good idea, for several reasons.

Even with your shallow draught, there are some places where you'll ground near LW unless you're spot-on in the deep channel, and you'll be outside of Free Tide Time at Goole so you'll be paying £31.25 for the pen out at Goole. If you go out earlier [no later than 1.5 hours after Goole HW] to avoid the charge there and lay on Blacktoft Jetty over the ebb, then ABP will charge you the same for doing that.

 

Your best option is to pen into the Ouse on the last minutes of Free Tide Time, run down to Trent End, turn into the Trent, then anchor a couple of boats lengths off the stones [half tide wall] a good 400 yards upriver of South Trent Light. Get underway again, up the Trent, on the last of the ebb about 15 - 20 minutes before flood.

 

You must only undertake this in suitable, settled weather conditions, and you will either need to know the river very well, go with another boat that does, or take a Pilot, . . . the lower Ouse and Trent are no place for pleasure craft in the hands of first timers on these rivers.

 

Brilliant just the post that I was hoping for....I respect big water..if it means a pilot that is money well spent..as much as this would be good, I have a wife and small dog so Thorne looks like a good option.

Many thanks, top advise

[Tony Dunkley]

 

 

Brilliant just the post that I was hoping for....I respect big water..if it means a pilot that is money well spent..as much as this would be good, I have a wife and small dog so Thorne looks like a good option.

Many thanks, top advise

 

You will obviously need to be very careful at Thorne, because you will have very little margin for error, but the lock is a fairly generous 'Sheffield size' length and a few feet wider than normal 'Sheffield size' width, . . . I can't remember the exact width, and I can't find my old notebook from about 12 years ago with the measurements I took before going that way round back to the Trent with the BW Dredger, but the Dredger was 67' [overall length with the buckets raised up clear of the water for travelling] x 14' 6'' wide and it penned laying straight down the middle of the lock, with the bottom tumbler and the buckets just an inch or two off the bottom gate walkways and the engineroom/cabin end just an inch or two off the top gates.

 

I would suggest that you operate the lock at least once, draining it right down from full, without the boat in it before penning, so you'll know just how slowly you can drain down [using one sluice, all or just part raised] and how quickly all the sluices can be closed or raised should it become necessary to do so, . . you can also check the rate of leakage through the bottom gates, and how quickly the water level starts to fall with the top gates and the sluices at both ends shut.

Whilst you've got the lock drained right down without the boat in it, have a poke around at the top cill with a boathook so you'll know the shape of it and how far into the chamber it comes, and the depth left over it with the lock drained all the way down.

When you've got the boat into the lock, and the top gates shut, get some lines ashore at both ends [more than one if needs be] and get the boat positioned with no slack in the lines, and the lines made off with nothing more than a good few turns that can be taken off and slacked away with the rope under tension as the level drops.

Early morning, before there's anybody much about, would probably be your best time for doing this, . . . the last thing you need is some well meaning involvement from others distracting you from what you're doing, or even joining in and doing something that you weren't expecting, and at just the wrong moment.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Naughty Cal]

 

 

 

Leaving Goole with a pleasure boat to get to Trent End at flood [Low Water] isn't a good idea, for several reasons.

Even with your shallow draught, there are some places where you'll ground near LW unless you're spot-on in the deep channel, and you'll be outside of Free Tide Time at Goole so you'll be paying £31.25 for the pen out at Goole. If you go out earlier [no later than 1.5 hours after Goole HW] to avoid the charge there and lay on Blacktoft Jetty over the ebb, then ABP will charge you the same for doing that.

 

Your best option is to pen into the Ouse on the last minutes of Free Tide Time, run down to Trent End, turn into the Trent, then anchor a couple of boats lengths off the stones [half tide wall] a good 400 yards upriver of South Trent Light. Get underway again, up the Trent, on the last of the ebb about 15 - 20 minutes before flood.

 

Unfortunately locking out of Goole has been made somewhat more complicated than needs be recently due to an "incident" that occured in the lock last year.

 

You can no longer pay to lock in/out, outside the free hours, so pleasure craft are now restricted to 2.5 hours before HW to 1.5 hours after HW. Miss these hours and you are waiting for the next tide.

 

Pleasure craft are now also required to rope up in the lock and the linesman only works within the 4 hour window each tide. So you will need long lines. There are yellow marks painted on the lock walls and sides which you must stay behind when being locked up.

[Tony Dunkley]

Unfortunately locking out of Goole has been made somewhat more complicated than needs be recently due to an "incident" that occured in the lock last year.

 

You can no longer pay to lock in/out, outside the free hours, so pleasure craft are now restricted to 2.5 hours before HW to 1.5 hours after HW. Miss these hours and you are waiting for the next tide.

 

 

This is utter nonsense, and if in fact ABP are now declining to pen downriver bound pleasure craft on the last hours of the ebb, then, far from making things 'more complicated', they are almost certainly doing them a favour by causing them to set out from Goole on downriver journeys at a much more sensible and advantageous state of the tide for pleasure craft in the hands of weekend sailors with, at best, limited experience and knowledge of the Ouse.

 

It cannot possibly be to the benefit of a pleasure boat bound for the Humber or the Trent to be sent out into the Ouse when, due to the state of the tide and the least depths in the river at the time, there is a very good chance of them grounding shortly afterwards.

 

In addition to the potential dangers to small boats floating off on a big Spring flood after grounding on the last of the previous ebb, they would then also be faced with a long slog into the Ouse/Humber flood if outbound for the Humber, or if inbound up the Trent, they would miss out on the best of the Trent flood because it will be long gone by the time they get round Trent End [Apex Light] and if heading for Stockwith or Torksey they will be under ebb for the greater proportion of their passage up the Trent.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Naughty Cal]

Not all pleasure boats slog up and down the river. The majority of the leisure boats from Goole are fast cruisers who could previously use the outside free locking penning hours to their advantage. Now that option has gone, as has the option of locking in outside of hours in incliment weather.

 

Example of how the new procedures are really causing boats to be in more danger in the link below:

 

http://seawings355.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/victoria-lock-goole-first-for-moonshine.html

 

This is far from a one of. We have several friends who moor in Goole and have all had similar situations.

[Tony Dunkley]

Not all pleasure boats slog up and down the river. The majority of the leisure boats from Goole are fast cruisers who could previously use the outside free locking penning hours to their advantage. Now that option has gone, as has the option of locking in outside of hours in incliment weather.

 

Example of how the new procedures are really causing boats to be in more danger in the link below:

 

http://seawings355.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/victoria-lock-goole-first-for-moonshine.html

 

This is far from a one of. We have several friends who moor in Goole and have all had similar situations.

 

This 'example' of how you say ABP are 'causing boats to be in more danger' is in fact, nothing of the sort, . . . but it is a very good example of how NOT to make a passage from Torksey to Goole, or for that matter between any two points on any tidal river or estuary.

 

As a piece of planning and passage making, it is a pretty dismal effort, but the fact that it took from 0654 hrs to 2026 hrs to cover 45 miles, . . . an average speed of around 3.3 mph over a period of some 13.5 hours was attributable solely to the need to keep the speed down in poor visibility and not due in any way to the actions of ABP.

 

The following extract from it makes it very clear that every single one of the difficulties and problems arose, not from anything ABP did, but from the complete failure on the part of those planning and making the passage to either take any of the prevailing conditions into consideration, and adapt to them, or to arrive at Goole anywhere even remotely near the ETA that Ocean Lock had been advised of :~

 

We departed Torksey cut 06.54 on Sunday in half light and thick fog. We thought the fog would have burnt off in the lower river to enable us to plane once we met the flood at Stockwith. However visibility did not improve and we felt it too risky to plane with the added danger of large pieces of driftwood. We found ourselves punching the flood to Grove Wharf, we then had help from the ebb to Apex Light but then it was a long slog to Goole against 4/5 knots of ebb.

We contacted Goole at Blacktoft Jetty, and were advised that we could not pay to pen in due to our late arrival as the Linesman had gone off duty (we do prefer to just hold station in the lower end of the lock rather than use ropes as this is much safer). This new procedure at Goole all stems from an incident earlier this year involving some York boats, which as regular users of Goole Docks we can't help but think that this has spoilt it for the locals who have transited the lock for many years without any problems. We therefore had no alternative but to anchor upstream of Goole and wait for the next tide.

We heaved the anchor at 19.30 in dense fog and proceeded back to Ocean Lock where we had a short wait for the Linesman to come back on duty. We finally landed back on our mooring at Goole Boathouse at 20.26.

_________________________________________

 

Having left Torksey in 'thick fog' and getting no further than Grove Wharf on the top of that tide, the right thing to do would have been to advise Ocean Lock re. a revised ETA, and then to anchor over the rest of the ebb in the Ouse, close to the training wall about 250 - 300 yards up from Boundary LIght, followed by a nice steady run up to Goole on the first of the next flood, aiming to arrive there about 3 hours before predicted local HW and to clear Ocean Lock in Free Tide Time, but just ahead of any shipping movements on that tide.

Instead, the strange decision was made to stem the ebb to just above Goole and anchor over the Low water period in one of the shallowest stretches of the entire river, . . . there's a very shallow bar all the way across at Sandhall Reach Light.

 

As an 'example' of how to make hard work out of what would have been [due to poor visibility] a slow but otherwise uneventful and uncomplicated passage, this would take some beating.

Any 'danger' that this particular boat may have been in between Torksey and Goole was the sole responsibility of those in charge of it, and ABP neither influenced nor had any part in it, whatsoever.

[Naughty Cal]

Just because it isn't how you would do something it doesn't make it wrong.

Had the new rules at Goole not been in place this boat would have been safe on its mooring rather then anchored on the Ouse.

 

Another example of the minority ruining things for the majority I'm afraid.

[Tony Dunkley]

Had the new rules at Goole not been in place this boat would have been safe on its mooring rather then anchored on the Ouse.

 

Another example of the minority ruining things for the majority I'm afraid.

 

If this particular boat was in any 'danger' as result of spending some time at anchor in the Ouse, then the danger could only arise from the choice of the location chosen to anchor, . . . which in this instance was one of the shallowest parts of the river with a very shallow bar all the way across a few hundred yards upriver from Goole Docks.

 

There is nothing inherently 'unsafe' about anchoring in the Ouse, provided that it is done at an appropriate and safe location. In this instance the location was not only a very poor choice, but AFTER being informed that there was no pen available into Goole until the next flood, the decision was made to spend some considerable time engaged in

"a long slog to Goole against 4/5 knots of ebb", merely to spend as much time as possible at this ill-advised/chosen anchorage instead of waiting a little upriver of either Boundary Light or South Trent Light, or even laying on Blacktoft.

 

The decision to needlessly burn a lot of fuel whilst stemming the ebb, simply to spend as much time as possible at the worst choice of anchorage was entirely down to those in charge of the vessel on that day, and NOT attributable in any way whatsoever to ABP.

[Naughty Cal]

There should have been no need to wait any tide out on the Ouse.

 

Had the actions of one boat crew not brought about the change in locking procedure at Goole any boat could lock in or out as they choose at any state of tide they choose.

 

It is of course the responsibility of each boat crew to plan their own passage and make their own decisions however things can and do change during the course of that passage, even a short passage from Torksey to Goole, as in this example. On a clear day the trip should have taken them no more than 2.5 hours lock to lock instead it was well over 13 hours.

 

You may not agree with their choice of anchorage, however that is your opinion. Opinions vary.

 

They chose a spot well away from any commerical movements on a stretch of river that they are very familiar with.

 

Laying alongside Blacktoft Jetty isn't exactly ideal for leisure craft and ABP Humber also levy a charge for doing so of £31 per ebb (Table 4 of the ABP Humber levies and charges document). Quite why you would want to lay alongside here on a less then ideal mooring designed for much larger commercial vessels in thick fog when laying at anchor just a little further upstream is still an option is a matter of personal opinion and one we shall disagree on.

 

For those not familiar with Blacktoft, here is a photo of it:

 

 

And one with a ship against it to gauge the size (different state of tide but I'm sure you will catch the drift).

 

 

Once again we will no doubt disagree on the decisions, but none of that changes the outcome of this case.

 

When are you next on the Trent or Ouse Dunkley?

[Tony Dunkley]

 

They chose a spot well away from any commerical movements on a stretch of river that they are very familiar with.

 

Laying alongside Blacktoft Jetty isn't exactly ideal for leisure craft and ABP Humber also levy a charge for doing so of £31 per ebb (Table 4 of the ABP Humber levies and charges document). Quite why you would want to lay alongside here on a less then ideal mooring designed for much larger commercial vessels in thick fog when laying at anchor just a little further upstream is still an option is a matter of personal opinion and one we shall disagree on.

 

When are you next on the Trent or Ouse Dunkley?

 

It would be difficult not to find " a spot well away from any commerical movements" over the Low water period, . . . . the entire length of the Ouse from Apex Light to Naburn is totally devoid of "commerical movements" at that time because there isn't enough depth of water for any of them to float, or move.

 

In light of the fact that you were complaining earlier that

"You can no longer pay to lock in/out, outside the free hours", it is rather inconsistent, to say the least, that you are now putting forward the same [as for out of Free Tide Time pens] £31.25 charge as a reason for not laying on Blacktoft.

 

If there was in fact "thick fog " when the boat in question passed Blacktoft, then why was it considered safer/preferable to proceed, NOT as you say " just a little further upstream", but at least 8 miles, to Goole, through that same "thick fog" ?

 

You are entitled to your "personal opinion", however worthless it is, but, fortunately, anyone reading this topic does have the option of evaluating it in comparison with the alternative one, . . . formed after 56 years of boating on the Ouse, Trent and Humber in both pleasure craft and in charge of a variety of different types of commercial vessels.

 

Instead of concerning yourself about when I shall 'next' be on the Trent or Ouse, you would do better to give some thought as to how long I've already been there.

[Naughty Cal]

 

It would be difficult not to find " a spot well away from any commerical movements" over the Low water period, . . . . the entire length of the Ouse from Apex Light to Naburn is totally devoid of "commerical movements" at that time because there isn't enough depth of water for any of them to float, or move.

 

In light of the fact that you were complaining earlier that

"You can no longer pay to lock in/out, outside the free hours", it is rather inconsistent, to say the least, that you are now putting forward the same [as for out of Free Tide Time pens] £31.25 charge as a reason for not laying on Blacktoft.

 

If there was in fact "thick fog " when the boat in question passed Blacktoft, then why was it considered safer/preferable to proceed, NOT as you say " just a little further upstream", but at least 8 miles, to Goole, through that same "thick fog" ?

 

You are entitled to your "personal opinion", however worthless it is, but, fortunately, anyone reading this topic does have the option of evaluating it in comparison with the alternative one, . . . formed after 56 years of boating on the Ouse, Trent and Humber in both pleasure craft and in charge of a variety of different types of commercial vessels.

 

Instead of concerning yourself about when I shall 'next' be on the Trent or Ouse, you would do better to give some thought as to how long I've already been there.

So when will you be out there next?

 

You are of course welcome to your own opinion however some of your information on recent topics regarding the Trent, Ouse and Fossdyke has been woefully out of date, one shining example being the swing bridge that has not been on Brayford Pool since 1972!.

 

Perhaps it would help people to evaluate your information if you told them when you were last out there and how often you travel on the rivers.

 

You may well have travelled the river in charge of different commercial and leisure craft but from some of your posts it is clearly not in a long while and all on displacement vessels. Different types of boats use the river in different ways. How for example would you get from West Stockwith to Hull in the same lock and tide window?

 

With regards the charge at Blacktoft my opinions are not at odds. I would happily have paid to enter Ocean Lock in the bloggers situation to reach my berth safely. I would not however have paid £31 to spend a few hours on a commercial berth on the tidal Ouse in thick fog. As you well know it was far from low water when they proceeded upstream. They would have had an uncomfortable wait on the jetty continually adjusting ropes until low water. Why bother when you can anchor and wait it out?