Washing machine power requirement

[timboharticus]

Following on from the cheap Maplin 1kW inverter what is the power required for a washer if the heater is not used ie. stat turn right down and machine plumbed into hot water supply.

 

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[NB Willawaw]

How would you stop the washing machine trying to heat the water up to the temperature set on the dial ?

Are you planning to disable the heating element in some way ?

[NB Willawaw]

I'm not an expert on washing machines, but if you turn the dial right down to about 30 Deg C (thats the lowest temp setting in my machine other than a cold cycle), then surely the machine will try to use the heater to top up the temperature of the incoming water from the calorifier to get to 30 Deg C.

What I am trying to say (badly) is that the w.m heater may still cut in occasionally at the low settings if the water in your calorifier is not piping hot (no pun intended).

If your calorifier is not big enough to cope with the hot water demands of a w.m cycle, the calorifier will fill itself up with cold water to replenish the hot used by the w.m, supply it to the w.m and that will then try to use the heating element to warm up the water to get up to the thermostat setting, resulting in your 1kW inverter tripping and leaving you with an interlocked machine full of washing and water.

I'm not sure what the electrical load of just the water pump, clock and the drum motor is (without the heating element), but I would have thought 1kW is a bit borderline. You could ask the manufacturer, but I'm not sure they would be able (or willing) to tell you, but its worth a try.

[Paul Evans]

Assuming you can disable the heating element in some way, you will need to know the rating of the motor and other components before you can decide whether a 1Kw inverter is going to supply enough power.

 

Have you considered a machine with a cold wash setting? If you had the machine set to that permanently you might not need to disable the heater. I would be wary of that - it would be all to easy to change the setting "accidentally". I've no idea what dragging too much power through an inverter would do but I can guess that it would not be very nice and probably very expensive.

 

If you want a washing machine, why not go for an inverter (and the supporting battery bank) that will supply enough power to run the heater as well. You could still use hot water to fill the machine to reduce the power need. Or you could find yourself a generator that will supply sufficient power (and an isolated mooring so you don't annoy me when you are doing your washing). I know these options will cost you more but cheap is not always cheap in the long run.

Edited February 20, 2005 by Paul Evans

[David Schweizer]

If you must disable the heater, all you need to do is disconnect the two wires bolted onto the ends of the element, and insulate them to stop them shorting out. These are usually located near the bottom of the drum, the most difficult bit will be removing the back of the washing machine, not only do manufacturers use star nuts these days, some also use a pair of plastic locking plates which have to be removed by brute force. Alternatively you could disable the heater by removing the appropriate contact on the timer control unit but you would need the wiring diagram to do this.

 

The washing machine will work without the heater elements operating but the water will cool during the longer wash cycles and may not produce a very good wash. Another drawback is that you would not be able to run a maximum heat cycle to clear limescale build ups.

 

On balance running a washing machine without the element working is a pretty bad idea.

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[bottle]

Following on from the cheap Maplin 1kW inverter what is the power required for a washer if the heater is not used ie. stat turn right down and machine plumbed into hot water supply.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Timboharticus

 

If you check the rating plate it may have the rating of the element and with simple mathmatics this would give the power required without the heater but washing machines put quite a load on the supply when the motor starts up.

 

If you only have one fill i.e. hot or cold the same supply will also be used for the rinse cycle.

 

Our machine at home has both and still uses the heater but only uses the cold for rinsing.

 

Obviously the machine will run without the heater element but they also sense the water temperature and wiil not continue the cycle until the temperature is reached so becoming locked at that point. Thats what happened to ours when the element failed.

 

This all only applys to a fully automatic machine now if you have a manual one well thats different.

[Gary Peacock]

Be very careful with cheap quasi sine wave inverters and washing machines. In years gone by washing machines were quite crude things simple motors and clockwork timers. But not so these days even the cheapo stuff now tends to contain motor control circuitry and the power supply circuits that in turn power these do not tend to like anything but a pure 50Hz sine wave.

I used to be quite seriously involved with installing inverters and the main lesson I learnt was that cheap inverters are exactly that and good inverters don't come cheap!

 

Gary

[bottle]

I learnt was that cheap inverters are exactly that and good inverters don't come cheap!

 

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think this is true for every thing that you buy, find the best, but buy as cheap as possible, I saved £60 for my parents for a vacuum cleaner just by searching on the internet for exactly the same model, but be aware that sometimes it is not always exactly the same. The caveat "buyer beware" always applys.

[DHutch]

In years gone by washing machines were quite crude things simple motors and clockwork timers.

 

Of cause the obvious solution is to get an old washer!

 

- Our old washer was totaly electro-mechanical, and it had both hot/cold inputs, we had to replace it a few months ago becuase the suspention was shot, so the drum wasnt as the right leval at all, and keeped smacking into the sides, which where also starting to badly rust though around the door! - But it was 2nd had when we move in to this house, 17years ago, and it had a wash almost everyday for all of those years!

- I dought that our new one will last that long!

 

daniel

[larkshall]

Firstly most washers will not run without a heater in circuit, and will just stick until water is at right temperature, even with hot/cold fill machines.

 

Secondly the cleverer machines will recognise a heater failure (disconnection etc), as many now monitor the device.

 

I personnally would get the advice from a washing machine repairs and service place. I.E low wattage machines.

 

The typical washing machine draws upto 3kw, and up to 3.75 'start current'. therefore any genny should be capable of standing this draw.

Inverters?, its possible but hope u got lots of domestic capacity.

 

The typical recommendation for a liveaboard vessel is 5.5 kava constant, more if like me u like aircon, and a decent freezer, as well as the jacuzzi. (Dreams)

[NB Willawaw]

Most boats that I have seen with washing machines either use a generator supply or a Travel Power which will produce a sufficient 3.5KVA sine wave to drive it from a dedicated alternator on the main engine. Certainly my w.m won't run from my inverter and I have to run up the genny for wash days.

[timboharticus]

Thanks folks, looks like it's back to the bucket , posher and mangle.

[Alastair]

I use a Wonderwasher for quite a bit of my laundry. It works for cleaning the clothes, uses no power and is a lot faster than handwashing.

 

Doesn't help with the drying, tho.

[tomandsophie]

Funny, I seem to get many differing views on washing machines on boats. The most common advice that I have heard is that it's generally fine to run one off a (minimum) 1500w inverter so long as you either disable the heating element (a very simple job of unplugging it, usually at the bottom of the drum) or run only cold wash cycles. I have met several people who use the Sterling quasi-sine 1800w inverter with a washing machine, so this is what we're going to be doing when we move onto our boat later this year. Thinking about it now though, perhaps we'll buy a second-hand machine first and then if it works fine we could save up for a (cheap and simple) newer one later.

The other point I wanted to make is that when I was looking through the Argos catalogue (the laminated book of dreams ) I noticed that even the more powerful machines quote a 1.4kw maximum power. Odd.

[Gary Peacock]

Not wanting to sound negative, but the real solution here is to have enough power from a reliable clean source.

I worked for a while fixing washing machines and just disabling the heater will not work because the timer waits mid cycle for the temperature to rise to the thermostat setting if the hot water supply does not reach this point do the cycle will not proceed. (The classic symptoms of a faulty heater)

If you leave the machine intact run it on a cold cycle with an hot feed that should work. But if you have a poor quasi sine wave inverter you may find the machine will not run at all. (The older the washer the better the chances with quasi sine wave inverters)

 

Gary

[rog guiver]

On the last boat, with a Heart inverter (1500 watt), the element suitably iscolated, the machine worked fine. The cycle did not stop, even if the water was not quite hot enough, but continued.

 

Obviously a word with the manufacturer asking what happens if the element fails will establish if your washer will cope with the element disconnected.

 

If it will, disconnect the element safely and go for it!

[tomandsophie]

On the last boat, with a Heart inverter (1500 watt), the element suitably iscolated, the machine worked fine. The cycle did not stop, even if the water was not quite hot enough, but continued.

 

Obviously a word with the manufacturer asking what happens if the element fails will establish if your washer will cope with the element disconnected.

 

If it will, disconnect the element safely and go for it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do you run your washing machine on cycles other than a cold cycle then? If you get the water in your calorifier nice and hot first can you do a 60 degree cycle?

Cheers, Tom

[John Orentas]

This thread has been running a while.

 

Quote. "Firstly most washers will not run without a heater in circuit, and will just stick until water is at right temperature, even with hot/cold fill machines".

 

Disconnect the heater, find the thermostat, remove the two wires and connect them together, the controller will then think it is permanently up to temperature.

 

Remember this is a 230 volt appliance, if you are not confident with things electrical find someone who can do it for you.

[Alan Saunders]

This thread has been running a while.

 

Quote. "Firstly most washers will not run without a heater in circuit, and will just stick until water is at right temperature, even with hot/cold fill machines".

 

Disconnect the heater, find the thermostat, remove the two wires and connect them together, the controller will then think it is permanently up to temperature.

 

Remember this is a 230 volt appliance, if you are not confident with things electrical find someone who can do it for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have been thinking for some time that there may be a sufficient demand for someone to do for the washing machine what Danfoss did for the 12v 'fridge - by marketing one they proved that the demand existed.

 

With respect, I suspect that few on this forum consider themselves competent to modify an appliance, safety aside, they may not wish to risk £300+ - I fall into the latter class. With modern machines it may be more a case of reverse engineering the processor than rewiring a couple of components.

 

I am familiar with only a few washing machines but commonly they only hot fill if the programme is set at or above 60 degrees. They are designed to work with biological detergents; with a hot fill via the cold connection the wash cycle will be less efficient, possibly abbreviated. On the other hand our, now quite old, AEG OKO Lavamat has an 'economy' button that makes it use the water at whatever temperature it is supplied at - possibly just what we need? Other manufacturers interpret 'economy' differently.

 

On uk.rec.waterways many recommended the Candy AQUA10T but someone bought the Candy AQA1000T and found the pump-out motor would not run from a modified sine-wave inverter. The pump ran OK when directly connected to the inverter but not via the machine's controller - simple solution, fit a relay.

 

The technical data is not readily available or I might be tempted to do the necessary research. 'Larkshall' claims that washing machines take 3KW and 3.75KW on start-up - I have found modern 5Kg load machines that are rated 2.2Kw maximum power input - but then found that they use hot water in the rinse cycle.

 

Clearly there is no simple answer - for all their 'fuzzy logic' modern appliances take no account of the environment found on the average small boat.

 

Alan

[John Orentas]

Alan

 

The last thing I want to do is to claim anything but total ignorance of washing clothes, it might get back to spouse.

 

We are virtually the only country in the world that washes clothes in hot water, everyone thinks we are mad, we even have our special UK washing powder.

 

Pumps are no problem at all running off an invertor, some of the main motors however are a very different matter, they have 3 or 4 wildly different speeds and are multi wound and with electronic control as well.

 

There seems to be a good bit of folklore about motors taking massive electrical loads on start-up but but when it comes down to it few I believe have attempted to measure it, in any event inverters can cope with very high 'overloads'.

 

If I needed a washing machine for the boat I would buy a second hand one that has the least sophistication and than modify / simplify it. When that was successful I may do the same with a new one.

[Gary Peacock]

Worst case scenario a Dyson washing machine plus a condenser dryer on a narrowboat.

Did it work?

Answer, yes but with 2 x 3000kw inverters and a whispergen plus a 3.5kw Electrolux generator!

Anything is possible to those with deep pockets and long arms.

 

It did seem somewhat expensive though just to put a used washing machines from your house on a boat but maybe people become attached to big purple washing machines!

 

Gary

[Paul Evans]

Was that to clash with the big red boat?

[onionbargee]

I ran a quite old wm off my 4kva deisel genny ok, warm wash, with just a cold hose from the watertap feeding into both hot/cold connections. simple pimple!