'Cheap DIY Project' ....

[Chris J W]

Hi, Folks

 

Maybe it's a case of wanting to proved "Grand Designs" wrong and that you can re-build and live on a boat whilst keeping to a decent budget, but I keep getting dragged back to this advert on Apolloduck

 

Cheap DIY Project - Wooden Top

 

 

Not seen her in the flesh yet, but keep getting this feeling that assuming her hull is OK then having the top ripped off and replaced with good looking varnshed oak and an internal fit-out that is sympathetic but modern.

 

So, assuming you don't all tell me to walk away or just pour my cash straight into the cut, who would be best placed in London to do the required woodwork/fitout for a budget of about £20k

 

(Oh, before you ask, no I don't have a boat at the moment, or have ever had one. I think it's the Project part of this that appeals to me.)

[ChrisPy]

You want to install a new cabin top from varnished oak? I think that might suit a GRP hull, but not this one.

 

I suggest that the only way to restore or fix up a narrowboat is sympathetically which means replacing with a painted cabin top in steel, timber or whatever. If the hull is sound (if not - WALK AWAY) and you have contacts, I suggest you should have a proper steel top fabricated. Fewer problems in the long run. Probably cost you about £5K just for the steel fabrication work (without the London weighting ), but you have to add the cost of insulation, windows, lining, painting, etc. to that. If you do it in plywood it will never be quite right and could be a nightmare to maintain.

 

Of course once the top is on the budget required to complete the boat is up to you. The sky is the limit.

 

Good luck.

[Chris J W]

You want to install a new cabin top from varnished oak? I think that might suit a GRP hull, but not this one.

 

I suggest that the only way to restore or fix up a narrowboat is sympathetically which means replacing with a painted cabin top in steel, timber or whatever.

 

Good luck.

 

Thanks, Chris, but I think I may have missed something. What would be the difference between 'varnished oak' and 'timber' ?

[nipper]

Hi, Folks

 

Maybe it's a case of wanting to proved "Grand Designs" wrong and that you can re-build and live on a boat whilst keeping to a decent budget, but I keep getting dragged back to this advert on Apolloduck

 

Cheap DIY Project - Wooden Top

Not seen her in the flesh yet, but keep getting this feeling that assuming her hull is OK then having the top ripped off and replaced with good looking varnshed oak and an internal fit-out that is sympathetic but modern.

 

So, assuming you don't all tell me to walk away or just pour my cash straight into the cut, who would be best placed in London to do the required woodwork/fitout for a budget of about £20k

 

(Oh, before you ask, no I don't have a boat at the moment, or have ever had one. I think it's the Project part of this that appeals to me.)

Blimey! What a project!

 

But, if the Hull, Engine installation, and Engine itself is in good condition and you have the time and dosh, as well as live quite close and you have the skills, then why not have a go.

 

Having been a Carpenter and Joiner for the past 40ish years and have learned, that on a boat, stay away from as much varnish as is possible, and defiantly don't varnish Oak, Teak etc!

Looks smashing, but it ain't gonna stay that way. These woods have there own natural oils, and you can't varnish oil!

The epoxy route don't tend to work either, it's expensive and I have found that it doesn't last any longer than normal varnish.

 

The trouble with varnishing wood for its looks, is that, come the day when you have to revarnish, all of the old varnish has to be removed and the wood taken back, past it's oxidized outer layer it's original state

 

Good old exterior ply, primed, filled and painted, properly, will, in my opinion, outlast any varnished surface on a boat.

 

Lord, don't i go on!

 

Best of luck

[John Orentas]

Those beautiful varnished oak /teak /mahogany sea boats you see look like that because every year someone pulls them out of the water, strips the old varnish off, then puts it all back until next year. Worse than that there is something about timber and steel, they just don't go together, the wood never seems to dry out and the steel rusts.

 

As Chris P says if the hull and engine are sound, and realistically that isn't likely, then put a steel top on it, but don't spend too much. It will never be worth more than 20K.

Edited April 6, 2007 by John Orentas

[NB Willawaw]

Just an off-topic remark - I was in Cromer Norfolk the other day and they have an RNLI museum there on the front.

There is a boat in there called the HF Bailey. a Watson class lifeboat from WW2 era. The boat is essentially famous because of the local cox and the numbers of rescues made, but I just stood drooling over its double diagonal mahoghany.

 

 

 

[ChrisPy]

I just stood drooling over its double diagonal mahoghany.

there's a guy in Bristol Marina restoring one of those. it's taking him for ever. last winter he stripped off the mahogany veneer from the deckhouse and underneath is what appears to be a steel former that has been beaten into the double curvature shape.

[Phil Speight]

Hi, Folks

 

Maybe it's a case of wanting to proved "Grand Designs" wrong and that you can re-build and live on a boat whilst keeping to a decent budget, but I keep getting dragged back to this advert on Apolloduck

 

Cheap DIY Project - Wooden Top

Not seen her in the flesh yet, but keep getting this feeling that assuming her hull is OK then having the top ripped off and replaced with good looking varnshed oak and an internal fit-out that is sympathetic but modern.

 

So, assuming you don't all tell me to walk away or just pour my cash straight into the cut, who would be best placed in London to do the required woodwork/fitout for a budget of about £20k

 

(Oh, before you ask, no I don't have a boat at the moment, or have ever had one. I think it's the Project part of this that appeals to me.)

Even at that price I`d have a hull survey done. Its 32 years old and if the bottom isn`t on the way out I`d be very surprised .

Cheers

Phil

[Hairy-Neil]

Might be a reasonable project if you were a welder, engineer, carpenter/joiner, electrician, plumber, painter and decorator all rolled into one......(of all the non marine trades I think coachbuilder comes closest......)

 

It could be mitigated by having a boatbuilder fit a steel superstructure. I have known of boats be steel clad over the top of an existing wooden cabin without too much upheaval to the original linings and fit-out, but in those instances the interior was worth keeping.....You'd have to judge what is there already to see if its worth saving....but I must admit that my first impressions aren't good in that respect, but then, you can't judge a book by the cover....

[Chris J W]

Thanks, Chaps!

 

I think the sort of thing I imagined was a top with a look like the lifeboat above - possibly over a structrual steel frame (if you see what I mean.) Points taken about the varnish on oak, etc, on natural oily wood. I'd tried to find some pics on the net to describe what I meant - one of those times where in real life it's much easier to point at something and go "like that!"

 

Decided that when I get back down south after easter I'll give the chap a ring so that I can have a look see - can't deny that I'm utterly intregued now by what state she's in. And then it'll probably be "What the broker saw..." thread Mk II

[smileypete]

Hi,

 

Varnish is fine if you understand how it works, what makes it fail, and how best to stop it failing. Few people do, though there are forums on the web where lots of good info can be found, this might be one of them:

 

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited April 7, 2007 by smileypete

[cheshire~rose]

Well I love the idea of an adventure!

 

I cannot say if this boat is worth the money even as a project but is you have a decent range of abilty and skills and you are prepared to accept that it is never likely to worth a fortune then why not.......

 

It is a case of being well aware of what you are letting yourself into both in terms of the work and the money required to get it servicable and the amount of money required to keep it afloat while working on it and afterwards.....

 

keep us posted!

[carlt]

Hi, Folks

 

Maybe it's a case of wanting to proved "Grand Designs" wrong and that you can re-build and live on a boat whilst keeping to a decent budget, but I keep getting dragged back to this advert on Apolloduck

 

Cheap DIY Project - Wooden Top

 

So, assuming you don't all tell me to walk away or just pour my cash straight into the cut, who would be best placed in London to do the required woodwork/fitout for a budget of about £20k

Assuming you want a traditional construction narrow boat wooden top (in oak), ie oak cabin frames (ash would be better), oak horizontal planking for cabin sides (though good quality pine would be more traditional) and oak shearing on the outside (though painted ply would be more usual). You're looking at 5k for the wood. If I was in london (and wanted the work) 15k might get you a cabin to the quality your materials demanded. You'd then be left with a bare shell to start fitting out.

 

It falls down a bit when you mention 'cheap diy project'. A new steel shell would be less than the 25k you've so far spent. Of course the cabin wouldn't be so pretty, but the resale value would be higher. Buy the boat and get a welder to put a steel lid on, and it would be cheaper than 20k the wooden top would cost, and the resale value would be higher.

 

If ditch crawlers wanted beautiful varnished wooden hulls and cabins, we'd all be discussing the latest Taylors of Chester shell, or the relative merits of oakum over cotton for caulking. Sadly it's not the case and a woodentop will be seen (oak, pine or brazilian mahogany) as just one step up from the lowest of the low, the wooden hull.

 

Now if you're doing it for love of course...

[Chris J W]

It falls down a bit when you mention 'cheap diy project'. A new steel shell would be less than the 25k you've so far spent. Of course the cabin wouldn't be so pretty, but the resale value would be higher. Buy the boat and get a welder to put a steel lid on, and it would be cheaper than 20k the wooden top would cost, and the resale value would be higher.

 

Ah - I was quoting the ad!

 

The general feeling seems to be "walk away". But as I said I'm intregued by the boat and will arrange to pop up the Lee and have a look. Who knows, I could go expecting to find a pile of rust and sawdust and not be surprised. But I could go expecting those and then be pleasantly surprised! (Not that I'm really expecting the latter, mind ....)

[carlt]

Ah - I was quoting the ad!

 

The general feeling seems to be "walk away". But as I said I'm intregued by the boat and will arrange to pop up the Lee and have a look. Who knows, I could go expecting to find a pile of rust and sawdust and not be surprised. But I could go expecting those and then be pleasantly surprised! (Not that I'm really expecting the latter, mind ....)

Sorry Chris, I'd never just say 'walk away' from anything that looks interesting. From your other posts you're obviously looking for a project and this one does look cheap (after all the engine and gearbox could be worth a couple of grand, depending on what it is). It's just getting a joiner to build a quality woodentop is not really the way to go, financially. Metal tops are cheaper and easier to sell on afterwards.

 

Personally I think a properly built, and sealed wooden top is far superior to a metal lid. It's warmer, prettier, and easier to maintain (unless you're a welder). Sadly I'm in the minority, mainly because there are so many old worn out wooden tops out there. Badly maintained and leaky, they reinforce the stereotype.

 

Of course if the cabin frames are sound, and you can do the work, mostly, yourself then reskinning in good quality 1" pine t&g, and covering it with marine ply, would be the way to go.

[Chris J W]

Yeah, I'll admit that part of me desires a "project" to do. But as my Dad (bless his little cotton socks!) keeps reminding me - this is my first time a float and I'm probably better off just getting a "normal" boat and leave the projects until next year! But where's the fun in that ...

 

Timing is a bit of problem for "projects", to be honest. My flat lease runs out at the end of July, so taking on a project could be a "bad thing" due to timing issues if nothing else. But, if this one does turn out to be a "goer", then I could take her up to York/Ripon and have her overlanded back home to Whitby where I could then spend the time getting her ship-shape on a secure site, and live with my Dad rent free. Still, must wait until after Easter until I get my (realistic) hopes up.

 

(But after reading the recent threads about bandits in Brum I think I'll reconsider my plan to do the whole lot!! )

Edited April 8, 2007 by Chris J W

[Teadaemon]

I have to admit, I was idly browsing through the narrowboat ads this morning (makes a change from looking at old Westerly yachts, which is what I actually intend to buy in the next year or so), and noticed the same boat. My thoughts on it were that a new top built from plywood and covered with a layer or two of glass cloth and epoxy would be the way to go. It may not be traditional, but it could potentially look pretty good, and sheathed plywood should be lower maintenance than steel or plain wood. The combination of steel hull and GRP/plywood composite superstructure is pretty common on small fishing and work boats, so I can't forsee any problems using it on a narrowboat.

[Chris J W]

I have to admit, I was idly browsing through the narrowboat ads this morning (makes a change from looking at old Westerly yachts, which is what I actually intend to buy in the next year or so), and noticed the same boat. My thoughts on it were that a new top built from plywood and covered with a layer or two of glass cloth and epoxy would be the way to go. It may not be traditional, but it could potentially look pretty good, and sheathed plywood should be lower maintenance than steel or plain wood. The combination of steel hull and GRP/plywood composite superstructure is pretty common on small fishing and work boats, so I can't forsee any problems using it on a narrowboat.

 

Oi! Hands off! I saw it first!!

 

Still not phoned the chap yet (trying to make sure my heart doesn't rule my head) but still keep going back to this one with several ideas in my head ... but .... mustn't let the head/heart battle get too one sided!

 

Either way ... Hands off! I saw it first!!

[AJLintern]

I also spotted that one, the price is certainly attractive... though I expect you get what you pay for - can you really believe it has a Boat Safety Certificate?

[Hairy-Neil]

- can you really believe it has a Boat Safety Certificate?

 

I never realised that the exterior appearance was a Boat Safety Certificate requirement......

[magnetman]

some of the old Teddesley boats were built by Allens of Oldbury. Don't know if it is one but the front looks similar.

[AJLintern]

I never realised that the exterior appearance was a Boat Safety Certificate requirement......

Never judge a book by its cover, eh? That's true enough, but it does look a little precarious

[carlt]

The combination of steel hull and GRP/plywood composite superstructure is pretty common on small fishing and work boats, so I can't forsee any problems using it on a narrowboat.

1970-80's Harborough marines had grp/wooden lids. They didn't take long to delaminate and start leaking like a sieve and they usually get a steel or wood only conversion when the owner has had enough of slapping more and more filler on (I've been there).

[Teadaemon]

1970-80's Harborough marines had grp/wooden lids. They didn't take long to delaminate and start leaking like a sieve and they usually get a steel or wood only conversion when the owner has had enough of slapping more and more filler on (I've been there).

 

They were almost certainly made with polyester resin if they're that old, and I'd have questions about the quality of the plywood too if it delaminates as readily as you say. If a GRP/wooden top were made using modern materials (epoxy resins, decent exterior-grade or marine ply, plenty of sikaflex at wood/steel interface), and construction methods, then leakage and delamination shouldn't be a problem. To give a counter-example, there are plenty of sheathed-plywood yacht hulls from the 1970s and 1980s that've survived very well indeed in a much wetter environment (I'm thinking particularly of the Maurice Griffiths designed Eventide 26).

[Timleech]

Don't forget that, at that age, the hull is probably 1/4" all round or maybe 1/4" bottom & 3/16" sides.

With a wooden top there is bound to have been dampness inside, condensation on the hull plating etc., plus 'wet' bilges were the norm at that time.

I'd be quite surprised to find the hull was worth spending serious money on having a new top & a refit. Stranger things have happened, though.

 

Tim