60ft dutch trawler.to buy or not to buy rust issues.

[davo123]

Hello all,im new to the forum but have already learnt a fair bit by reading posts,great forum. I thought I would post because any additional information I can gleam from you all would really help me.forwarned is forarmed and all that.

 

So heres my situation, I have been offered a 60ft 1950s dutch trawler that has been on the mudflats of a local estuary for the last 15 years.it has no bss and I think theres little point in paying for a survey because it has concrete in the bottom and it can't be moved without insurance,so I am sort of buying blind. She floats and doesnt actually leak, although there is alot of rust along the deckline of the hull,and actual holes some 20cm in length,I know that its less likely to rust on the bottom.the engine room bulkhead is rotten but the hull looks ok from the inside,with only one spot I could find in the engine room that looked like it may of been weeping slightly between two plates,roughly above where I would imagine the prop is. The thing is the boat is 3500 pounds (its a friends boat) I am an automotive welder by trade so I feel confident I could patch any holes but my worry is the hull in general will be too far gone.although it has the odd hole above the waterline,and much rusty crustyness,it still feels like the metal has a good thickness to it(I cant really just go at it and hit it with a hammerhow id like to, especially below the waterline in case I go through it and sink my friends boat).my plan would be to get the boat out of the water and welded at first opportunity. As you may have guessed by now I am not an experienced boater,I am out of my depth slightly, so any comments would be of great help concerning what to look for rust wise,or any other things I should look for,insurance companies I could try that would even consider insuring a 65 year old trawler thats spent 15 years straight on a mudflat..should I run a mile?

it just seems so cheap and I keep coming back to the fact that it floats,it has had anodes on it albeit not the right ones,very little water in the bilge and it hasnt gone up in 2 months or been pumped out..and its metal which can be welded.I realise I could just buy a barge hull..this was my initial plan however looking at bare hulls for £10000 which are usually 100's of miles away has made me consider this boat,I realise it would most likely be a full back to hull rebuild.i have taken lots of photos however I have no idea how to post them? I look forward to discussing this all with you further,and sorry if I havent provided enough info or missed out anything important.happy new year to you all aswell! Dave.

[davo123]

I should add that although the huge Daf engine could be brought to life the propshaft is very much out of action,so I suspect I would be removing that also,im intending to convert to a houseboat with two floors one down in the hull and one on deck. My next step is to hire an ultrasound thickness gauge and spend a day there measuring it,but I have no idea what I should be measuring or what a good or bad measurement would be.and also no idea what it would of been originally!

[Murflynn]

ask yourself if this would be your ideal boat.

 

it certainly doesn't sound like a canal boat - where would you moor it? do you intend to live on it?

 

you say you are not an experienced boater and you do not really know what you are doing - I suggest that any experienced boater would tell you to run a mile

[davo123]

No its not a canal boat,it would be in a local marina when finished,for what reason exactly should I run? The size of the job? I am not worried about this and I have somewhere in a local yard I can do the work.my worry is the hull..if its too thin to make it worthwhile.in reality I could buy a barge hull that costs me 15k before I get it to the yard and it comes with nothing at all..this has chainwinches anchors chains,original portholes all things I would then need to buy anyway.

And when finished,yes I do think it would be my ideal boat,as a background I am an experienced vehicle restorer and converter,and have in the past restored double deckers,coaches,down to austin 7's. Admittedly this would be my biggest project by far its only extra time and extra money in my opinion.i never intend to move the boat once finished it will be effectively static.

[Starcoaster]

If it's got holes and dodgy bits visible, it's going to have some large multiple more not visible. And even if you can see thick bits of hull, they might be thin as anything randomly in spots anyway. Unless you can work on the principle of budgeting/planning for a complete replate or overplate as your expectation and if this is not needed it's a huge bonus, I would be all like,

 

I mean yes you might get a screaming bargain, but you're sooo much more likely to get a total moneypit/liability/disaster.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Starcoaster

[Bee]

Well, if you want to get some idea of the undertaking have a look at 'the voyage of Wendy Anne 2 BlogSpot .co.ok' , can't provide the link as something is not working very well.

Personally I would say it is impossible for one person to bring a boat of that size back from virtual scrap to anything like usable again, the expense is simply too much.

Your first step is wandering around anywhere that could provide a mooring, on the South coast moorings are scarce and dear, moorings for a small ship are going to be hard to find.

If you look at the Dutch boat websites, Botentekoop and Marktplaats and others and keep on looking you will find possible projects that will not destroy you and give you a usable boat and perhaps even a small profit. The trawler would break your heart.

[davo123]

Ok this is news to me! I thought that generally the worst of the rust would be above the waterline? Also its a trawler so the hull should be nice and thick no?

[MtB]

Consider the downside. You actually discover its a unrepairable colander after shelling out £3.5k. Now what?

 

Are you allowed to just abandon it where it is? Or is it a liablilty i.e. you are paying mooring fees? Or worse, you are liable for disposing of it?

[davo123]

Ill check that link now Bee,thanks.

 

I did fear this may of been what id hear back from you all.

 

I so want to save her,she could be a lovely home

[MtB]

The current owner could be facing a £10k or £20k bill for disposing of it right now. Asking anything at all for it seems a barefaced cheek!!

[Starcoaster]

Nice and thick, well not necessarily, no. I dunno what the standard is for that sort of boat, but it is apt to vary considerably from one to another. It may have started life at 6mm, or 30mm, but at the end of the day, it is what the remaining thickness is now that is the issue.

Also, how much it has lost in its life from what it started with is interesting to know too.

[davo123]

Well its about 300 metres from a huge scrapyard with river access so my plan in the event it was a lost cause would be to salvage anything half useful, ie four nice old portholes,anchor and chains,chain winch and anything else I can find before arranging to scrap it. The problem I have is finding out if its good enough to bother with,but without moving it somehow?

[MtB]

Well its about 300 metres from a huge scrapyard with river access so my plan in the event it was a lost cause would be to salvage anything half useful, ie four nice old portholes,anchor and chains,chain winch and anything else I can find before arranging to scrap it. The problem I have is finding out if its good enough to bother with,but without moving it somehow?

 

 

Well wearing my cynical hat, I think the vendor already knows the answer to this, which is why it's been abandoned for the last 15 years!

[davo123]

Id love to know what it started at,on the inside of the engine room theres plating riveted around 12mm and also 15 years ago before she was laid up the hull was plated on both sides going under the waterline from the front of the boat.these plates are also riveted and also around 10/12mm.this is what's giving me hope,the worst rust is along the deckline but even here the metal in close proximity is easily 5mm in some places

[Starcoaster]

You mention it floats but has these 20-some cm holes- are these above the waterline? Have you seen it floating, and is it dry inside etc? You may well be able to get a surveyor to come and see it where it is for a hull-only survey if it is dry, have you considered this?

 

If you only want it as a houseboat rather than to move around, you won't have such an issue with a thin but non-leaking hull as you might do otherwise, although this doers still mean that it will need to be enough keep the water out!

 

If the hull thickness is less than 4mm, you won't be able to get full insurance-but you will be able to get third party. However, if it went under whilst you were moving it from there to your base, you'd then be stuck with a very costly recovery and salvage job.

[davo123]

To be fair its not abandoned,he lives on it.

To be fair its not abandoned,he lives on it. To be clear this boat isnt up for sale,its my friends but he has never tried to actually sell it until I thought about buying it.

Its wet inside but tjis is down to a 65 year old rotten deck,alot of the hull is painted inside,what I can see has no rruston the inside apart from one bit in the engine room,the bulkhead,deck and wheelhouse are rotten but these would all be removed.so over 4mm is what I want to see if I do the ultrasound test?

I havent considered the surveyor coming out,partly because the way my friend has tried to raise the floor means alot of the hull isnt easily accessible,I can crawl down each side ok but i doubt the surveyor would be too keen on going down there!

[Starcoaster]

Yes, over 4mm and as I say, really do beware, just because one bit looks well over a cm thick uniformly, another bit a couple of cm over might be thinned to a pinhole, as I know from seeing a piece of the above-posting Mike the Boilerman's Reginald's old hull.

[davo123]

Also yes all visible holes in the hull are along the deckline,there are holes that are supposed to be here to allow the water off but along that line its in particularly bad nick,I would probably do a 1ft x 120ft patch around the whole deck side.

Ok well my next plan is to spend a day on her, take a thickness gauge and just work my way around it. The weeping from the large plate in the engine room worries me,its above where I would guess the prop sits underneath and I doubt would be an easy patch as its along a join basically from what I can make out.

[Starcoaster]

How are you going to use the ultrasonic tester if the hull is full of set cement though?

[davo123]

Somebody told me that if the engine room hull is ok it generally would be ok elsewhere as its usually the place to rust out first.is this true?

[MtB]

I'm not expert but I'm reasonably sure ultrasound thickness measuring will not work reliably where there is concrete behind.

 

So this really is an unknown quantity with no easy way of quantifying it.

[davo123]

Well the cement is in the front end,and quite shallow.theres 14ft of engine room bottom to test and the rest will have to be from the concrete up.

[Alan de Enfield]

Yes, over 4mm and as I say, really do beware, just because one bit looks well over a cm thick uniformly, another bit a couple of cm over might be thinned to a pinhole, as I know from seeing a piece of the above-posting Mike the Boilerman's Reginald's old hull.

 

Just remember we are not talking canal boats here (and canal boat insurers).

 

Many sea going boats only start their life with a 5mm thick hull.

Sea going boats are a different kettle of fish - I think you may be better asking the questions on a Dutch barge forum rather than an Inland Waterway / Canal Forum.

 

Sea going boats rarely operate in 2 feet of water which is full of concrete blocks, bricks and shopping trolleys, or 'graunch' alongside a stone faced lock every couple of hours.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[davo123]

no the ultrasound would be from the inside out and as long as its touching metal hull it will give you a measurement of the metal..not the paint or cement etc on the otherside.at least thats what the guy renting the unit out told me..

Ok,ill have a search for a sea vessel forum,my main reason I thought id ask is because whenever I google a question this forum geberally comes up with an answer!

[Starcoaster]

Somebody told me that if the engine room hull is ok it generally would be ok elsewhere as its usually the place to rust out first.is this true?

 

No! I mean, it might happen there first, but just as likely anywhere else. For instance, if it has been in the same spot for years scraping on the same invisible "something" in the mud every day, or for any one of a million other reasons, it could be thin in patches on any part, or uniformly thin in general, ie, if it had been on a shoreline forever with no galvanic isolator or anodes.

/\ As Alan said, bear in mind that this is all canal boating wisdom that I am spouting, and I am a recent newcomer there too. I can't promise how much of the "wisdom" I am spouting would hold true for boats other than narrowboats, or use on non-canal waterways¬

Edited December 31, 2015 by Starcoaster