Oil For Lister HA & HB Series Air Cooled Engines.

[PeterG]

For this type of engine I would stick with a straight 30 rather than a multigrade for a number of reasons.

 

Engine development was originally done with that type of oil and hence the effect of running the engine for the expected duty cycle was well known and acceptable.

A multigrade such as 20W/50 is basically starting as a 20W and then using viscosity improvers acts like a 50 grade at 100C if the viscosity improvers have not broken down.

 

Hence it starts out as a thinner oil which could cause initial oil starvation before the oil starts to circulate properly. Note I say could because it is not proven either way.

 

The fact that an HA2 will likely be worn and have larger operating clearances than a more modern engine says to me I want a thicker grade on initial starting and hence 30W of the correct API speciifcation.

 

However I am sure you will not push the engine as hard as it is designed to be pushed and hence the duty cycle will be a less onerous one so you will probably be fine.

 

Alan the choice is yours.

[bizzard]

On the other hand thick oil will not splash around as much as thin oil, which could starve the lower ends of the bores to be starved of oil as well as other things that rely on splash lubrication, until the oil heats up and thins anyway.

[PeterG]

At least you know if you use the original specified oil then it works fine at startup as this has been tested and proven.

 

Alan asked for the reason why not to use the multigrade and I answered him after all.

[alan_fincher]

The latest acquired boat, (and hence the latest acquired HA!), came with an original book....

 

"Lister Air Cooled Diesel Engines Types HA & HB 2 & 3 Cylinders Instruction Book & Parts List"

 

(Published 1963, price 10/-)

 

I have scoured this, and although the "Starting & Running faults" section has entries for "Loss of Oil Pressure", at no point elsewhere in this publication can I find any references to hat ranges they think oil pressure lie in, and hence there are no clues about what constitutes "low oil pressure".

 

The "Lubrication" section does actually make some reference to use of Mutigrades, as it states.....

 

Multigrade oils must have a degree of detergency equivalent to Supplement 1 level, and must not be used for heavy duty applications. [Their bold].

 

 

"Supplement 1" appears to be a supplement to Ministry of Defence specs 2101C or MIL-L-2104, but at this point I'm totally out of my depth, I'll freely admit.
No recommended oils listed in this document are mutigrades.

[Alan Saunders]

I know nothing about lubricating oils for canal boat engines except what I have learned from this forum. When multigrade oils were first available Duckham's Q20/50 was generally recommended as a replacement for SAE 30 in a road engine.

 

Surely, an oil that allows easy starting in winter and higher viscosity in summer is better than compromising between SAE 20 or 30?

 

Oil pressure is an indication of the state of the engine and the oil level. My understanding is that oil is important to cool the engine friction components; therefore flow rate is as/more important than pressure. I can understand that larger clearances due to design or wear would benefit from a higher viscosity oil but, surely, a CC grade 20/50 would be more likely to provide that at full working temperature than a straight SAE 30?

 

Alan

[bizzard]

My opinion is use as thinner oil as possible in more modern marine engines, at any rate and probably in old types too providing the engines in good nick and the oil pressure remains within reasonable bounds. One for easy starting and two for easy splash lubricating of the bores and things that rely on splash lubrication especially when the engine is cold.

Over the years I've known loads of folk when their vehicle engines have begun to burn a drop of oil, to up the viscosity.The old straight oils, say from 20 to 30 grade in the winter and 30 to 40 grade in summer or from say 15/40 or 10/40 multigrade to 20/50. When they did this the oil burn rate 'was reduced a little' but only quite temporarily and the oil burning rate would begin to increase quite rapidly, much more rapidly than if they'd kept to the original recommended grade resulting in bigger smoke screen and clapped out engine!! Accelerated bore wear through not getting enough oil splash it seems.

[PeterG]

I know nothing about lubricating oils for canal boat engines except what I have learned from this forum. When multigrade oils were first available Duckham's Q20/50 was generally recommended as a replacement for SAE 30 in a road engine.

 

Surely, an oil that allows easy starting in winter and higher viscosity in summer is better than compromising between SAE 20 or 30?

 

Oil pressure is an indication of the state of the engine and the oil level. My understanding is that oil is important to cool the engine friction components; therefore flow rate is as/more important than pressure. I can understand that larger clearances due to design or wear would benefit from a higher viscosity oil but, surely, a CC grade 20/50 would be more likely to provide that at full working temperature than a straight SAE 30?

 

Alan

 

Oil pressure is only an indication of the state of the engine even if it is an important one.

 

Duckhams at the time was quoted as a good replacement for an SAE30 at the time and that mirrors what I said but it is not what it was designed and tested against and hence is not the most proven answer but probably would do.

 

Full working temperature is not my concern so much as the inital running prior to getting up to temperature is a large cause of wear in an otherwise healthy engine of this type and that is what I am most concerned about, however you do state that you have no knowledge about lubricating oils and it is a difficult subject if you get it wrong and cause increased wear and hence rebuild costs.

 

On older engines you need bearings and wear points to have oil of sufficient load capacity and not just lots of flow splashing around for cooling purposes

 

My opinion is use as thinner oil as possible in more modern marine engines, at any rate and probably in old types too providing the engines in good nick and the oil pressure remains within reasonable bounds. One for easy starting and two for easy splash lubricating of the bores and things that rely on splash lubrication especially when the engine is cold.

Over the years I've known loads of folk when their vehicle engines have begun to burn a drop of oil, to up the viscosity.The old straight oils, say from 20 to 30 grade in the winter and 30 to 40 grade in summer or from say 15/40 or 10/40 multigrade to 20/50. When they did this the oil burn rate 'was reduced a little' but only quite temporarily and the oil burning rate would begin to increase quite rapidly, much more rapidly than if they'd kept to the original recommended grade resulting in bigger smoke screen and clapped out engine!! Accelerated bore wear through not getting enough oil splash it seems.

 

Upping the viscosity on a worn out engine is just as bad as decreasing it when it is not worn out, as it deviates from the design envelope that is known to work and hence more likely to cause an accelerated failure. To be honest no snake solution cures a worn out engine, it is time for a rebuild.

The latest acquired boat, (and hence the latest acquired HA!), came with an original book....

 

"Lister Air Cooled Diesel Engines Types HA & HB 2 & 3 Cylinders Instruction Book & Parts List"

 

(Published 1963, price 10/-)

 

I have scoured this, and although the "Starting & Running faults" section has entries for "Loss of Oil Pressure", at no point elsewhere in this publication can I find any references to hat ranges they think oil pressure lie in, and hence there are no clues about what constitutes "low oil pressure".

 

The "Lubrication" section does actually make some reference to use of Mutigrades, as it states.....

 

Quote

Multigrade oils must have a degree of detergency equivalent to Supplement 1 level, and must not be used for heavy duty applications. [Their bold].

 

 

 

"Supplement 1" appears to be a supplement to Ministry of Defence specs 2101C or MIL-L-2104, but at this point I'm totally out of my depth, I'll freely admit.

No recommended oils listed in this document are mutigrades.

 

The quote inside the quote says it all and was what I was hinting at in my original response, if you use your engine carefully you may get away with it but for heavy duty use which the engine was designed for then Multigrade oils are not good according to the manufacturer. Which means they were not prepared to support the warranty if their engines were looked after in the way the knew would work.

Edited June 22, 2015 by PeterG

[LEO]

Hi,

 

I was considering changing to a Multi-grade oil for my 2LW a few months ago and aired the subject on the Forum - Martyn1 was helpful - if the instruction manual states SAe 30, use it - I did and kept on using Morris's as before.

 

I ran the suggestions raised in the post by a well known 'vintage' boat /engine man (who runs a boat with an HA2) yesterday, his comment was the same - use SAe30 if the instructions recommend it.

 

His engine sounded sweet as a nut as he chugged off the 58 miles to Braunston.

 

He was a tad dismissive of all the problems, pointing out that these vintage engines in terms of useage, really 'come for a holiday in their retirement on the canals'.

 

If two experts are of the same mind I would be inclined to say that's the answer to the problem.

 

L.

Edited June 22, 2015 by LEO

[Alan Saunders]

On older engines you need bearings and wear points to have oil of sufficient load capacity and not just lots of flow splashing around for cooling purposes

Splash lubrication is only applicable to the big ends of some vintage engines, especially those with roller bearings; it contributes little to cooling.

 

Modern (post 1920?) engines depend on oil cooling to the hottest parts of the engine. e.g. My standard, 1930 design, 1950 production Gardner has an oil-cooler.

 

Again, an SAE 20/50W oil will provide easier starting in winter and better viscosity in summer than either a straight SAE 20 or 30 oil. Obviously the original designer/manufacturer never tested the engine with a multigrade oil. The longevity of modern engines is due more to advances in lubricating oil technology than engine design. In 1965 we were pleased when a 1500cc van engine lasted for 50K miles (1,700 hrs) now we are surprised if it fails within 130K miles.

 

Alan

[LEO]

Splash lubrication is only applicable to the big ends of some vintage engines, especially those with roller bearings; it contributes little to cooling.

 

Modern (post 1920?) engines depend on oil cooling to the hottest parts of the engine. e.g. My standard, 1930 design, 1950 production Gardner has an oil-cooler.

 

Again, an SAE 20/50W oil will provide easier starting in winter and better viscosity in summer than either a straight SAE 20 or 30 oil. Obviously the original designer/manufacturer never tested the engine with a multigrade oil. The longevity of modern engines is due more to advances in lubricating oil technology than engine design. In 1965 we were pleased when a 1500cc van engine lasted for 50K miles (1,700 hrs) now we are surprised if it fails within 130K miles.

 

Alan

Hi,

 

Sure the oil-cooler is for the gear box oil only and not the engine oil?.

 

The 'expert's' HA2 I mentioned in an earlier post 'chugged' past on ticker over and had been started from cold moments earlier - there was no smoke from the exhaust, nor when he increased revs shortly after.

[PeterG]

Splash lubrication is only applicable to the big ends of some vintage engines, especially those with roller bearings; it contributes little to cooling.

 

Modern (post 1920?) engines depend on oil cooling to the hottest parts of the engine. e.g. My standard, 1930 design, 1950 production Gardner has an oil-cooler.

 

Again, an SAE 20/50W oil will provide easier starting in winter and better viscosity in summer than either a straight SAE 20 or 30 oil. Obviously the original designer/manufacturer never tested the engine with a multigrade oil. The longevity of modern engines is due more to advances in lubricating oil technology than engine design. In 1965 we were pleased when a 1500cc van engine lasted for 50K miles (1,700 hrs) now we are surprised if it fails within 130K miles.

 

Alan

Splash lubrication and thew benefits or otherwise was a comment from Bizzard, what I was talking about is the use of oil on bearing surfaces which is where the early wear is an issue if you get it wrong.

 

 

Hi,

 

Sure the oil-cooler is for the gear box oil only and not the engine oil?.

 

The 'expert's' HA2 I mentioned in an earlier post 'chugged' past on ticker over and had been started from cold moments earlier - there was no smoke from the exhaust, nor when he increased revs shortly after.

 

Totally agree if you get it right and are not just running a worn out engine then you get an 'experts' HA2, these engines are designed to run and be used after all.

[colinwilks]

 

Hmmm,

 

From the oil container in the engine room when I bought Flamingo, it is probably already on an SAE 30 monograde.

 

The idle oil pressure is excellent when cold, but fell what I considered alarmingly after a protracted period of working it quite hard.

 

It certainly doesn't sound like I want to put a thinner monograde in, does it?

 

From some of the earlier posts I was becoming tempted by the 20W/50 multigrade suggestion, because my limited understanding is that the oil should perform more like a thicker 50 grade when hot, and hence I though might show a greater pressure than with the 30 monograde. Is that a bad idea then?

Keith on Hadar told me recently about an interesting idea to increase oil pressure in his National. Fitting a 12 volt fan from a computer under the sump lifted his by 5 psi. Afraid I did not think to enquire what this was as a percentage, but it seemed a neat low cost idea.

Edited June 30, 2015 by colinwilks