Front Door Lock

[andrew]

I am having trouble finding a suitable lock for the hardwood front doors fitted to my Liverpool Boats sailaway. The stiles on the doors are too narrow to take a standard mortice lock and the barrel on the surface mount lock in Midland Chandlers is to short to go through the door. I'm sure others have had this problem before, can anyone suggest a solution?

[Gary Peacock]

I am having trouble finding a suitable lock for the hardwood front doors fitted to my Liverpool Boats sailaway. The stiles on the doors are too narrow to take a standard mortice lock and the barrel on the surface mount lock in Midland Chandlers is to short to go through the door. I'm sure others have had this problem before, can anyone suggest a solution?

 

Have a look HERE

 

If you find anthing suitable we can get you it.

[David Schweizer]

I am having trouble finding a suitable lock for the hardwood front doors fitted to my Liverpool Boats sailaway. The stiles on the doors are too narrow to take a standard mortice lock and the barrel on the surface mount lock in Midland Chandlers is to short to go through the door. I'm sure others have had this problem before, can anyone suggest a solution?

Have a look at this site:-

http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalog/copy..._Lever__3_.html

They are probably the narrowest production sash locks available. They are made primarily for Narrow French Doors, which are not dissimuilar in stile dimension from Narrow Boat front doors, and the prices are not too bad either.

[CJT]

Andrew

I'll be interested to hear what solution you come up with.

I too have a Liverpool built boat and only have bolts on the inside which is not ideal and means our only access to a locked boat is from the stern - not always convenient.

The lock which David posted looks good although I'd need to check the measurements.

Chris

[canalcruiser]

I am having trouble finding a suitable lock for the hardwood front doors fitted to my Liverpool Boats sailaway. The stiles on the doors are too narrow to take a standard mortice lock and the barrel on the surface mount lock in Midland Chandlers is to short to go through the door. I'm sure others have had this problem before, can anyone suggest a solution?

 

We used to have a Liverpool Sailaway and I obtained a Narrow Stile Mortise Lock from a Local Locksmith. It certainly made access from the front a whole lot easier.

 

Chris

[blackrose]

I saw someone with a Liverpool Boat who'd screwed a 1" thick 6" square of wood to the inside of the door which they'd chiseled out and inserted a mortice lock.

[David Schweizer]

I saw someone with a Liverpool Boat who'd screwed a 1" thick 6" square of wood to the inside of the door which they'd chiseled out and inserted a mortice lock.

Sort of defeats the object of installing a framed door in the first placer, and pretty unsightly as well. Narrow mortice locks, designed for narrow stiles are available from specialist suppliers, so why not use them.

[blackrose]

Sort of defeats the object of installing a framed door in the first placer, and pretty unsightly as well. Narrow mortice locks, designed for narrow stiles are available from specialist suppliers, so why not use them.

 

How can you say it's unsightly if you didn't see it? The one I saw was well done & looked good, nice brass door knobs etc. Some of these doors are only an inch and a half thick. Even a narrow mortice lock isn't going to leave a lot of wood surrounding it - a weak door defeats the object of fitting a mortice lock in the first place.

 

My boat is a LB but I have steel doors without windows. I use my bow doors as the main entrance & welded a couple of hasps onto the outside, one at the top and the other at the bottom. At my mooring I only use one big padlock - if I'm away I use two.

 

If a mortice lock is locking into another opening door you have to make sure that the other door is well bolted into the frame - preferably the bolts will extend behind the steel. Any bolts just going into wood can be easily crowbared open - that goes for sidehatches too.

Edited February 20, 2007 by blackrose

[David Schweizer]

How can you say it's unsightly if you didn't see it? The one I saw was well done & looked good, nice brass door knobs etc. Some of these doors are only an inch and a half thick. Even a narrow mortice lock isn't going to leave a lot of wood surrounding it - a weak door defeats the object of fitting a mortice lock in the first place.

OK, I am prepared to accept that the job was done well, it's just not the solution I would have sought.

 

Perhaps it needs to be remembered that a standard external domestic door is only 1 3/4" thick whilst a standard internal door is 1 1/2" thick, a pair of standard French doors have stiles measuring 2 1/4 wide and 1 3/4" thick. A five lever security mortice lock is 1/2 thick, and Joiners have been fitting narrow mortice locks to these doors for decades without any problems. They are accepted by the insurance companies as being secure on a house, so there should be no problem with a pair of boat cabin doors.

 

Even if the door stiles are only 1 1/2" thick there is still 1/2" of material either side of the lock, which should be more than adequte to secure what is effectively a pair of very small

outward opening French doors.

Edited February 21, 2007 by David Schweizer

[blackrose]

OK, I am prepared to accept that the job was done well, it's just not the solution I would have sought.

 

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Your solution to a problem is not necessarily the same as mine and that doesn't make yours right and mine wrong or vica versa.

[David Schweizer]

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Your solution to a problem is not necessarily the same as mine and that doesn't make yours right and mine wrong or vica versa.

Well it does actually. The solution you described effectively converts the Mortice lock into a rim lock, so why not fit one of them in the first place. The correct way to install a mortice lock is within the body of the door, not to add bits and then cut them away. In my day I would have been thrown out of the workshop for even suggesting that sort of construction..

Edited February 21, 2007 by David Schweizer

[blackrose]

Well it does actually. The solution you described effectively converts the Mortice lock into a rim lock, so why not fit one of them in the first place. The correct way to install a mortice lock is within the body of the door, not to add bits and then cut them away. In my day I would have been thrown out of the workshop for even suggesting that sort of construction..

 

So there's only one way and that's your way? I see.

 

Your rigid inflexible thinking would get you thrown out of any workshop I was running.

 

Whatever happened to creativiity, inventiveness, lateral thinking and improvisation? I thought that's what living on boats was all about - finding different solutions to problems and working out which is best for a particular situation. The solution I saw and which I posted may not in fact be the best idea for this particular situation, but most inventions & novel solutions have come about through thinking out of the box. Furthermore, I think the whole idea of the forum is to allow contributors to make suggestions without castigation from others so that the original poster then has a range of options from which he/she can make their choice.

[PaulW]

Hi,

 

I am fitting out a Price Fallows Shell at present which has bow doors (lined) opening outwards. My solution was to use a Yale type lock with the insert bar reversed. This then fitted to the right hand door (as viewed from the inside). The striker plate fits to the left hand door. The doors have to operate in the reverse way to normal doors fitted with yale locks, in that the door which opens has to be the one with the striker plate, not the lock mechanism. To complete the installation two slide bolts (or one) are fitted to the right hand door, so that the doors cannot be prised open from the outside. The whole installation means that on exiting from the inside, the Yale mechanism is operated and both doors can be opened. Once outside the right hand door is shut and locked, and the left hand door pushed closed, locking the boat. One point to watch however is that there needs to be a reasonable clearance between boths doors, to allow the striker plate to pass the right hand door. Although I used a standard yale type lock, one with a longer bar would have been better as the bar I used only just catches the striker plate.

 

Hope that is of use

 

Paul

[tomsk]

Well it does actually. The solution you described effectively converts the Mortice lock into a rim lock, so why not fit one of them in the first place. The correct way to install a mortice lock is within the body of the door, not to add bits and then cut them away. In my day I would have been thrown out of the workshop for even suggesting that sort of construction..

 

 

I'm with David on this one, sorry Mike your 'solution' is overcomplicated nonsense..... Judge Tomsk has ruled..

[blackrose]

I'm with David on this one, sorry Mike your 'solution' is overcomplicated nonsense..... Judge Tomsk has ruled..

 

Since you're a proven rank amateur when it comes to these things I'm afraid you've no jurisdiction! Get back to the virtual pub!

 

Hi,

 

I am fitting out a Price Fallows Shell at present which has bow doors (lined) opening outwards. My solution was to use a Yale type lock with the insert bar reversed. This then fitted to the right hand door (as viewed from the inside). The striker plate fits to the left hand door. The doors have to operate in the reverse way to normal doors fitted with yale locks, in that the door which opens has to be the one with the striker plate, not the lock mechanism. To complete the installation two slide bolts (or one) are fitted to the right hand door, so that the doors cannot be prised open from the outside. The whole installation means that on exiting from the inside, the Yale mechanism is operated and both doors can be opened. Once outside the right hand door is shut and locked, and the left hand door pushed closed, locking the boat. One point to watch however is that there needs to be a reasonable clearance between boths doors, to allow the striker plate to pass the right hand door. Although I used a standard yale type lock, one with a longer bar would have been better as the bar I used only just catches the striker plate.

 

Hope that is of use

 

Paul

 

But this is not the "standard" way of doing things. You mean you've actually used your brain to solve a problem? It sounds overly complicated & I'm afraid some on the forum won't be able to handle such concepts!

Edited February 21, 2007 by blackrose

[David Schweizer]

Hi,

 

I am fitting out a Price Fallows Shell at present which has bow doors (lined) opening outwards. My solution was to use a Yale type lock with the insert bar reversed. This then fitted to the right hand door (as viewed from the inside). The striker plate fits to the left hand door. The doors have to operate in the reverse way to normal doors fitted with yale locks, in that the door which opens has to be the one with the striker plate, not the lock mechanism. To complete the installation two slide bolts (or one) are fitted to the right hand door, so that the doors cannot be prised open from the outside. The whole installation means that on exiting from the inside, the Yale mechanism is operated and both doors can be opened. Once outside the right hand door is shut and locked, and the left hand door pushed closed, locking the boat. One point to watch however is that there needs to be a reasonable clearance between boths doors, to allow the striker plate to pass the right hand door. Although I used a standard yale type lock, one with a longer bar would have been better as the bar I used only just catches the striker plate.

 

Hope that is of use

 

Paul

I have seen several boats using a Yale lock, However one thing that has always bothered me is what happens if you close the doors without having the keys in your pocket? My neighbour does this with amazing frequency, fortunately they have left a spare with us, which is regularly "borrowed". Have you found a solution to this potential problem?

 

 

 

 

 

So there's only one way and that's your way? I see.

 

Your rigid inflexible thinking would get you thrown out of any workshop I was running.

 

Whatever happened to creativiity, inventiveness, lateral thinking and improvisation? I thought that's what living on boats was all about - finding different solutions to problems and working out which is best for a particular situation. The solution I saw and which I posted may not in fact be the best idea for this particular situation, but most inventions & novel solutions have come about through thinking out of the box. Furthermore, I think the whole idea of the forum is to allow contributors to make suggestions without castigation from others so that the original poster then has a range of options from which he/she can make their choice.

You really are missing the point. There is always a place for inventiveness and creativity, my boat has numerous inovative aspects, some mine some the original builders's. However what you described was an overcomplicted solution to a problem which did not exist because the industry standard can be applied and will work. There are literally thousands of boats successfully using a 2" Mortice lock with a rebate plate on the front doors, so why try and invent something that doesn't work as well?

Edited February 21, 2007 by David Schweizer

[tomsk]

Since you're a proven rank amateur when it comes to these things I'm afraid you've no jurisdiction! Get back to the virtual pub!

But this is not the "standard" way of doing things. You mean you've actually used your brain to solve a problem? It sounds overly complicated & I'm afraid some on the forum won't be able to handle such concepts!

 

 

Mike dearest boy, I'm a consultant building surveyor, and have been deriving my income from such employment for a number of years so I'm afraid to say that I have jurisdiction, and in fact am a professional expert as opposed to a 'virtual expert' in such matters.

 

I should of course, realise not to bother trying to help here and rarely do as there will always be a more 'expert' expert than myself telling me what a rank amateur I am.

 

Please don't tell my long standing clients how useless I am, as they are quite happily paying 3 figure hourly rate for my inept advice , good luck with your suck it and see bodging and best of luck with your Uni course.

Edited February 21, 2007 by tomsk

[chris w]

they are quite happily paying 3 figure hourly rate for my inept advice ,

 

 

Does that include the pence?

 

 

 

 

 

 

.............................................. just kidding

[tomsk]

Does that include the pence?

.............................................. just kidding

 

Most amusing Chris

[chris w]

Most amusing Chris

 

I'm sure it won't be long before you even the score

[blackrose]

I have seen several boats using a Yale lock, However one thing that has always bothered me is what happens if you close the doors without having the keys in your pocket? My neighbour does this with amazing frequency, fortunately they have left a spare with us, which is regularly "borrowed". Have you found a solution to this potential problem?

You really are missing the point. There is always a place for inventiveness and creativity, my boat has numerous inovative aspects, some mine some the original builders's. However what you described was an overcomplicted solution to a problem which did not exist because the industry standard can be applied and will work. There are literally thousands of boats successfully using a 2" Mortice lock with a rebate plate on the front doors, so why try and invent something that doesn't work as well?

 

Why wouldn't it work as well? - my neighbour's door lock seems to work fine. Actually it's you who is missing the point. The original poster asked for ideas. I responded with an solution I had seen - not one I had carried out myself I add. While I accept that it may not be the most appropriate solution, that's for him to decide & I certainly didn't respond for you to start haranguing me!

 

Mike dearest boy, I'm a consultant building surveyor, and have been deriving my income from such employment for a number of years so I'm afraid to say that I have jurisdiction, and in fact am a professional expert as opposed to a 'virtual expert' in such matters.

 

I should of course, realise not to bother trying to help here and rarely do as there will always be a more 'expert' expert than myself telling me what a rank amateur I am.

 

Please don't tell my long standing clients how useless I am, as they are quite happily paying 3 figure hourly rate for my inept advice , good luck with your suck it and see bodging and best of luck with your Uni course.

 

Stick to consulting then because from the posts I've seen you obviously know nothing about boats.

 

Yes, I've noticed how you rarely help - no contributions of your own, just plenty of judgements & snide comments aimed at trying to get a rise out of people.

 

And by the way I'm not doing a course, but I'm always impressed by those who tell me what a lot of money they earn.

Edited February 22, 2007 by blackrose

[andrew]

Oh dear! What have I done?

 

Been away for a couple of days and see what happens! But thanks for the constructive replies and I hope you all kiss and make up soon.

 

Am persuing the problem with a local locksmith and will let you know if we have any success. Meanwhile please be nice!

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

[David Schweizer]

Yes it's amazing what disquiet an innocent question will sometimes generate.

 

I always try and purchase materials from local suppliers if I can, and if they can supply an equivalent lock for less than £25 get it from them, but if they want a lot more try these people:- http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalog/copy..._Lever__3_.html

 

My local locksmith wanted £36 (plus VAT) but when I pointed out I could get one mail order for less than £25 including postage, they made me an offer which I could not refuse.

 

Please let us know how you get on.

Edited February 22, 2007 by David Schweizer

[tomsk]

Why wouldn't it work as well? - my neighbour's door lock seems to work fine. Actually it's you who is missing the point. The original poster asked for ideas. I responded with an solution I had seen - not one I had carried out myself I add. While I accept that it may not be the most appropriate solution, that's for him to decide & I certainly didn't respond for you to start haranguing me!

Stick to consulting then because from the posts I've seen you obviously know nothing about boats.

 

Yes, I've noticed how you rarely help - no contributions of your own, just plenty of judgements & snide comments aimed at trying to get a rise out of people.

 

And by the way I'm not doing a course, but I'm always impressed by those who tell me what a lot of money they earn.