Powered canoeing on the cut

[CampinGazz]

I have an inflatable canoe, picked it up at lake Annecy (just below switzerland) for the same price in euro's as they sell for in pounds over here, got it last year on our anual motorhome tour of europe, it's a sevelor brand, but one of the higher end jobbies, 5 seperate air chambers inside a fabric re-inforced outer, went for that as the cheap inflatable one we had before didn't like being run over a submerged tree... i was playing the captian ready to go down with the ship, my girlfriend was crying as she had never tested her buoyancy aid before, and the dog abandoned ship, swam to the bank and barked at us (she had her buyoncy aid on too of course)

 

As the canoe has mounts for the smallest electric motor, we had to get one of them... drove diagonaly accross Switzerland to a shop in germany to buy one that was selling them 50 euro's cheaper than anywhere else, then drove back to Interlaken, good job i was running on german bio-diesel at 88 cents a litre.

 

We had a good time with the canoe over there, getting told off on Lake Luzern for having a powered canoe that wasnt registered on their lake, even tho it's only a 100 watt motor.

 

So, when the weather gets a bit better over here, we'd like to use the canoe on the canals, we always want calm water, and much prefer going down rivers or canals than just around a lake, much more fun to be finding out what's round the next corner, rather than just going accross a lake or round in circles.

 

I know i'll need to join the canoe organization thingy to get a licence to use the canoe on british waterways waters, but anyone know waht i have to do if i want to use the electric outboard on the canals?

 

I'd like to get hold of a cheap small petrol outboard, 1 to 2 hp max, 2 stroke for lightness, but i can't seem to find one cheap, even one needing some work on it, (anyone got one???)

What's the rulings on a petrol engined canoe on the canals?? extra licences? having to register it like a bigger boat? or are there no rulings that apply as canoes don't usually bother with engines, meaning i wont be allowed to use it?

[seaandland]

What's the rulings on a petrol engined canoe on the canals??

 

 

Nothing, ive been told, theres a guy who sails one at Froghall, IN A CAPTAINS HAT, i just let him go on his merry way.

[Howard]

If you come onto the Thames you would have to licence it as a powered craft , as opposed to an umpowered one , obviously

[Guest]

Nothing, ive been told, theres a guy who sails one at Froghall, IN A CAPTAINS HAT, i just let him go on his merry way.

must be a big hat to fit a canoe in

[seaandland]

[anthony]

Ah canoes I love em.

Ive built 6 to date myself my latest being a 2 person sailing canoe with a flat transom for an outboard.

Keep a look out for a seagull outboard on EBAY.

I may even know of a good one going for fifty quid myself.

[WJM]

Petrol onboard a plastic inflatable canoe - is that wise? - if a fire took you would be a cremated viking in seconds!

[honey ryder]

whats wrong with paddles, you know the kind you put in your hands and pull through the water?

theyre pretty cheap.

 

ive used canoes/kayaks on the thames without a licence since... ooh, ages and no one has ever questioned me.

i paddled ( and motored) around in inflatable dinghies on the trent, northern canals, river ouse, great ouse etc etc and still no one ever bothered me.

 

if i got stopped for using an electric motor on a canoe, well id just say that as its electric i would have thought it excempt from pwoered craft status for licencing in the same vane that you pay less road tax and dont have to pay a congestion charge in london if you have an electric vehicle...

 

 

the thing is, if you go out playing in a canoe unlicenced, just make sure you avoid locks, they are the places where you will get stopped and questioned about licences. even if you are carrying your canoe they will stop you.

 

I got stopped recently at penton hook lock ( see my blog for details about that one) and the lock keeper chap wanted to know what were my plans and if i was going to launch. once i explained i was going back to my boat he was happy enough.

I consider my canoe like my pushbike is to the tow paths, it can get you around and can be a practical way of getting from here to there especially if you are moored offside. its a personal mode of transport tat can be completely environmentally friendly... so sod the licencing, they will licence you to breath soon.

Edited February 22, 2007 by honey ryder

[anthony]

Oh i totally agree paddling is far better and probably faster than a small outboard.

I would never use a petrol outboard with an inflatetable.

 

I always get out at locks it would be a waste and dangerously daft to put a canoe through a lock not to mention a total waste of water.

I dont think human powered canoes should have to be licensed but insurance might be a good idea.

[Howard]

Electrically powered boats ( and canoes ) are charged at 75% of the cost of a powered boat .....

 

As well as avoiding locks , make sure you avoid the patrol launches as they will stop you occasionally and ask to see your licence ....

 

I'll forward this on to my collegues at Penton Hook and Chertsey

 

Baffles me all these people that want something for nothing , we see so many of them ..... and then they want to put their problems on to you ....

 

'Hello, can I collect your mooring fee please ?'

 

'I'm not paying that / can't afford that (delete as applicable) , blah blah blah '

 

'Well then you'll have to move then' ..... Simple ...

 

What do they think pays for the upkeep of the Agency facilities on the Thames ? Goodwill ?

 

Unreal ......

Edited February 22, 2007 by Howard

[magnetman]

As well as avoiding locks , make sure you avoid the patrol launches as they will stop you occasionally and ask to see your licence ....

 

More great advice - avoid the blue launch boys.

[Howard]

[honey ryder]

Electrically powered boats ( and canoes ) are charged at 75% of the cost of a powered boat .....

 

As well as avoiding locks , make sure you avoid the patrol launches as they will stop you occasionally and ask to see your licence ....

 

I'll forward this on to my collegues at Penton Hook and Chertsey

 

Baffles me all these people that want something for nothing , we see so many of them ..... and then they want to put their problems on to you ....

 

'Hello, can I collect your mooring fee please ?'

 

'I'm not paying that / can't afford that (delete as applicable) , blah blah blah '

 

'Well then you'll have to move then' ..... Simple ...

 

What do they think pays for the upkeep of the Agency facilities on the Thames ? Goodwill ?

 

Unreal ......

 

but a canoe is so small and causes no damage. they dont take up mooring spaces and they dont go fast and damage banks.

I dont really understand why a self propelled canoe ( or dinghy for that matter) would need to pay a licence fee. They dont use locks, they dont need any of the infrastructure larger vessels need so why should they contribute to a system they have no need of. All they need is a few inches of water.

I completely agree with paying licences on larger vessels, they use the system so should pay towards it.

 

should the dvla start taxing pushbikes? or taxing running shoes?

Edited February 22, 2007 by honey ryder

[magnetman]

but a canoe is so small and causes no damage. they dont take up mooring spaces and they dont go fast and damage banks.

I dont really understand why a self propelled canoe ( or dinghy for that matter) would need to pay a licence fee. They dont use locks, they dont need any of the infrastructure larger vessels need so why should they contribute to a system they have no need of. All they need is a few inches of water.

I completely agree with paying licences on larger vessels, they use the system so should pay towards it.

Most dinghies are too heavy to 'portage' over the lock and there are only rollers on a few locks like Teddington, Molesey, Sunbury and there are rollers somewhere else can't quite remember. Temple or Hurley?. Somewhere up a backwater too.

So a dinghy, if it is too heavy to carry, should have a license but why I can't buy a 1 year dinghy (with 2hp outboard) license from Teddington lock is beyond me, something to do with ancient acts of parliament. Can buy an unpowered license but then Mr Smith catches up with you and you get threatening letters. They never wanted to see my kayak license for many years on the river never using locks just bashing through the tripper boats' wash, and when I tried to sail a raft the blue launch boys just looked at me like I was a nutter. How wrong they were.

[anthony]

Howard what on earth are you talking about?

''People expect to put their problems on you as well''

What problems?

All the rubbish BW leave in the canal and around locks that you dont notice because it suits you.

 

If im paddling on a canoe not using locks what resources Am I using exactly ?

 

My answer will simply be no IM not paying and theres nothing you can do about it and ill move when IM good and ready,.

Edited February 22, 2007 by anthony

[Janet S]

they use the system so should pay towards it

 

Shouldn't that apply to everybody? Our Wet Betsy is an inflatable with outboard, and we happily pay for our licence and insurance.

 

We could probably get away with not doing so, but wouldn't feel comfortable.

 

Janet

[magnetman]

Shouldn't that apply to everybody? Our Wet Betsy is an inflatable with outboard, and we happily pay for our licence and insurance.

 

We could probably get away with not doing so, but wouldn't feel comfortable.

 

Janet

Apparently you don't need insurance to get a Thames license but you do to get a Gold or a BW license

[NB Willawaw]

Just join the British Canoe Union.

Membership includes a licence fee of sorts that allows you to paddle the Thames or BW canals and rivers

and it also includes third party liability insurance in case you kill someone.

 

I have a wicked inflatable open canoe which I take with me (in a rucksack) where ever I go and it gets me on waterways

that a narrowboat couldn't even find. I never object to paying a modest fee.

 

I paddled on the Chelmer and Blackwater just before Christmas and paid £3 for a day licence. As the muddy lanes around Paper Mill Lock were full of walkers' cars who didn't want to walk that far, they let me put my car in their nice concrete car park, so I didn't have to carry the boat far to the water.

[CampinGazz]

Cheers for the replies,

 

RE: the petrol outboard inflatable canoe fire thingy, well, not too fussed about that, are outboards so different to other small 2 stroke engines say in scooters, chain saws, strimmers etc?? as in they burst into flames at the soonest opurtunity?

 

In reality if owt ever happened, say the fuel line split and it did catch fire, we'd jump overboard into the water, and then i'd splash water over the fire untill it was out, it's not as if we were inside a cage or owt that ment we couldent just lean sideways and roll out to get away, and there'd be plenty of fire fighting matter all around us.

 

Problem with paddeling is, only i can paddle for any length of time, my GF is too weak to paddle (she's weighs in at under 48 kilo's!!! and has no muscle mass at all)

i can only paddle for a certian time before i get severe cramps, (medical problems, but i love the manouverability of a canoe, plus it being inflatabpe it packs into a small space easily stored in the motorhome) so any progress is in short spurts with long rests,

hence why i got the electric outboard, that's ok, but it's painfully slow, and the slightest wash or current and it's useless,

 

and the dog.. well she can only hold the paddles in her mouth, and wont dip them in the water, we could tie a tow line to her, but we'd need a duck to swim infront of her to get any movement.

 

But it deffo seems a very awkward thing to go about getting a licence for the canoe, not helped that i spend about 4 to 5 months touring europe, i guess i should have a licence for the waters over there?? but so far playing the dumb forigner has worked, so maybe that's the way to do it.

[anthony]

I have no problem paying for things when there is something to pay for.

Using a canoe with human power brings no wear on the water that has fallen out of the sky and creates no wash.

[NB Willawaw]

Well actually old mate, thats not exactly true.

Canoes might not actually create as much wear and tear as steel boats with dirty diesel

engines, but their users create wear and tear on the banks and towpaths when portaging.

 

Of course, so do walkers and cyclists but thats another story.

 

You should see the damage a canoe club can do when you've got 30 kids in kayaks seal launching

down the banks.

 

The bottom line is if you use a canoe on most waterways in the UK, you are liable for some

form of licence. You might and will, probably get away with it, but thats up to you.

 

Personally I can't be *rsed to keep looking over my shoulder for a couple of quid a year.

 

In terms of the Chelmer & Blackwater mentioned in my last post, that waterway has already gone bust once.

I don't mind contributing if I see that the money is being used to improve or provide facilites.

 

I come across a lot of scroungers on the canals who think that because we are an island nation, they have some divine right to use the waterways for free.

 

While I'm having a rant, the other thing that ticks me off is people who use our coastal waters, never put any money in the RNLI collection boxes and then expect them to come out when their jet ski breaks down 3 miles out.

 

I have no problem paying for things when there is something to pay for.

Using a canoe with human power brings no wear on the water that has fallen out of the sky and creates no wash.

Edited February 22, 2007 by NB Willawaw

[Howard]

Howard what on earth are you talking about?

''People expect to put their problems on you as well''

What problems?

All the rubbish BW leave in the canal and around locks that you dont notice because it suits you.

 

If im paddling on a canoe not using locks what resources Am I using exactly ?

 

My answer will simply be no IM not paying and theres nothing you can do about it and ill move when IM good and ready,.

 

Anthony , you really are coming across as one of these people who go through life with the adage ' I'll do whatever the hell I want, and no-one will tell me any different' I hope i'm wrong...... but that certainly is the impression you give ...

 

Thats ok then , you refuse , it's not my problem , I will pass on the refusal to pay to the Nav Office and they can pursue you for the fees , through the courts if necessary , i'm done with arguing with 'the water should be free brigade' .... makes no difference to me ..... thats why we have a legal department .....

 

You would be amazed at the amount of 'river gypsies' we get that moor up and when we approach them for payment give us all manner of nonsense excuses ' I can't afford it ' - 'Well moor somewhere else then' , 'My gyro hasn't cleared ' - 'shame' , 'The free grassy area is full of river gypsies, they told me that it would be ok to moor here' - 'well it's not unless you pay' , 'can i live aboard ?' - 'No' etc etc ..... that is what i mean by putting their problems onto us ....

 

If you are paddling in your canoe, how do you launch it ? from the towpath ? a slipway ? all need maintaining believe it or not. When you decide to sneak past the lock over the rollers or the island , do you think that they maintain themselves by magic ?

 

BW is nothing to do with me , i'm afraid , the Thames locks are controlled by the EA so I can't comment on the state of the BW towpaths.... however , any rubbish that turns up in the lock cut or at the lock is promptly lifted out and disposed of by us ..... this costs money as well surprisingly ......

 

If you see a large log or something floating , all you have to do is phone the nav office or the next lock and they will arrange for a barge to come and collect it , surprisingly, this doesn't come free either .... so , the very act of navigating on the river and having the ability to report things is part of what your (non existant apparently) licence would pay for ....

 

The towpaths of the Thames , by and large are controlled by the local councils so if you see mess , you need to report it to them and they will sort it out instead of just moaning away to yourself and anyone else who will listen ....

 

I might be coming across as a bit of a grump , but believe me i'm not , i just get fed up of all the 'something for nothing' people that we seem to be burdened with nowadays , thankfully most people are really nice understanding souls, but you always get a few each season , who love to moan ....hopefully they'll stay away this year ....

Edited February 22, 2007 by Howard

[anthony]

Howard if IM causing no harm to anyone why can i not do what ever i want within the law?

If a person can walk down a street wearing a mask because it is a free country then why cant i paddle down a river for free?

IM not suggesting im doing it everyday or living on the river as that would be different as the effect im going to have is greater.

However an occasional paddle on a sunny afternoon does not result in any wear to the bank.

I dont sneak or anything of the like.

Along the way i end up chucking all kinds of trash out of the waterway onto the bank so if i did pay i would be expecting a refund not making a call for a barge to come and collect it that would create more wear on the water than a life time of my canoeing.

As for passing a non paying canoe user over to the legal department what do you realistically think will happen over such a small fee?

I work I pay tax for just about anything that exists on this island in some shape of form.

If i had the attitude that i could charge for whatever i like then how much do the upteen carrybags that get stuck round my prop on my cruiser amount to in cash?

IM sorry if you dont like it Howard but IM not prepared to pay for using a canoe.

I seriously feel its as ridiculas as charging someone for walking on a pavement and thats my opinion thank you very much.

Yes you are right all the maintenence does cost but who creates that need for the maintainence certainly not a lone conoeist by any percentage.

I must say you sound as if you have become a bit long in the tooth and tar all with the same brush perhaps you should become a traffic warden or a car clamper.

[magnetman]

'The free grassy area is full of river gypsies, they told me that it would be ok to moor here' - 'well it's not unless you pay' , 'can i live aboard ?' - 'No' etc etc .....

 

The towpaths of the Thames , by and large are controlled by the local councils...

 

Nice new lock cut. The old concrete bit opposite Lensbury used to be good free moorings. Council owned I guess.

[honey ryder]

im with anthony on this one, i believe self propulsion should be free...

cycling, walking, swimming, paddling a canoe...

I can launch my canoe from damn near anywhere, in fact the less man has had to do with it the better. its much easier to launch from a natural river bank than any man-made towpath side or what have you.

 

as i was cycling down the side of the river lee one day i noticed signs saying cyclists should have a permit! what? what manner of madness is that?

 

its about time canals and rivers evolved from their by gone days as industrial ditches to something everyone can use. maybe towpaths should be made wider to accommodate cyclists and pedestrians, towpaths are no longer towpaths as how often do you see a bunch of men pulling a boat or a horse for that matter. its all nonsense and completely irrelevant to the modern world.

 

Going back to the original point of this thread, I say potter about with the canoe and the electric outboard, if anyone complains you dont have a licence, offer to pay them cash right there and then for it. if you have offered to pay then theres nothing they can do to you. if noone ever asks you then it really obviously isnt important now is it?

 

england is crazy for charging people and being territorial, carparks, private land, private water?!, private this and that, we've gotten so used to having to pay for absolutely everything its unbelievable.

if you go to france belgium or spain, its a world apart in that respect.